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kimg901
Guest
Another false revelation that never came true. And he did more for the church than Christ did?
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gazelam
Guest
Yes. LDS apologist website anyone?
I frankly don’t know. It seems plausible that God could offer options to some for His wise purposes, but taken to an extreme, too many disabled people could frustrate the commandment to multiply and replenish the Earth. It would seem allowing spirits to select disabilities willy nilly is not part of the Plan.
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gazelam
Guest
You win. I should have said that the question of the disciples in verse 2 clearly assumes that if the sinning was done by the blind man it was done in a previous life. However, I did not say there is proof the blind man sinned in the preexistence.
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kimg901
Guest
So let me get this straight. It could have been done in another life or in the pre-life? Are they the same or are they different. But there is no proof of a pre-life is there?
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lax16
Guest
It is really interesting to read both sides of the argument about the authenticity of the BoA.
Here’s a good link on the subject:mormonthink.com/book-of-abraham-issues.htm
I agree that this does not seem to be part of God’s plan. However, I have heard enough Mormons say this over the years that it leads me to believe they must know something more on the topic.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Wut.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
You do realize, Jesus said that man wasn’t blind because of sin, right?
Also, do you believe that sin in a previous life would cause something like blindness?
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Porknpie
Guest
Tx Tex, I do remember this now.
This was not a very good prophecy from a man whom was supposedly the greatest prophet of all time.
How’s did the Quakers supposedly get on the moon? I have to ask…
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LongJourney
Guest
Mormon explanations for the problem of pain are one of the most reprehensible things about Mormonism. Those explanations lead to further abuse of many people.
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TexanKnight
Guest
this is the same guy who prophesied certain people would serve mission trips only to have them die before they could leave.
And that would world would end in the 1800s.
pretty sad…
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SteveVH
Guest
Gazelum, I am hoping you can help here because I can’t get Janderich to respond to a question I have concerning the Mormon view of God’s omnipotence. I am told that Mormons do, indeed, believe that God is omnipotent while at the same time believing that God used co-eternal, pre-existent matter and intelligences in order to fashion creation. My argument has been that this then makes God dependent which contradicts the very meaning of omnipotent. This is assuming, however, that God had no choice but to use these co-eternal things in order to “create”.
My question is this. Regardless of how God chose to create (that is assuming the Mormon position of using existing, co-eternal matter and intelligences) do you believe that God has the power to create something from nothing? Even if this is not what he chose to do, does he have the power to do it?
Thanks.
My question is this. Regardless of how God chose to create (that is assuming the Mormon position of using existing, co-eternal matter and intelligences) do you believe that God has the power to create something from nothing? Even if this is not what he chose to do, does he have the power to do it?
Thanks.
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gazelam
Guest
No.
Here is a non-LDS philosopher’s take on the LDS view of the nature of God. It touches on some of theese issues without being condescending. It makes for an interesting short read IMHO.
opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/16/why-i-love-mormonism/
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lax16
Guest
So everything Mormons believe about God comes from Joseph Smith and his revelations?
There is nothing else to substantiate his claims? Did/does the Mormon church ever subject people who receive(d) revelations, and their revelations, to any type of test to determine whether or not it was/is true?
Do you believe without a doubt that Joseph Smith was a prophet?
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SteveVH
Guest
Sorry, I looked at it but I refuse to read a lengthy article in which I have no interest in order to find the portion to which you are supposedly directing me. Why don’t you just cut and paste the pertinent part.
The point is this. You say you believe God is “omnipotent” but believe that he is not capable of creating ex nihilo, from nothing. Please explain how you can hold these opposing view points simultaneously? If God is incapable of some act then he cannot, by the very definition of the word, be omnipotent.
Thanks for answering the question, however. It does clear up the issue for me.
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lax16
Guest
SteveVH - I think I will use this article to help keep people out of Mormonism. It puts the
Mormons and Joseph Smith in such a strange light it would be very helpful to give this to potential converts and their families.
They will run for the hills. I never knew that discussing God was such a fun and entertaining topic.
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LongJourney
Guest
This is the second or third time I have read it. I get more out of it each time. He is very critical of superficial criticisms of Mormonism. He says it totally falls apart when you get to the core teachings. Exactly my attitude.
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gazelam
Guest
I’m copying from LDS websites here. Some of this topic is well beyond my paygrade. The first two paragraphs address the LDS view of omnipotence. The remaining paragraphs address theodicy which is related to omnipotence. This is the best I can do given my limitations on this topic.
Regarding the LDS view of Omnipotence, Author David Paulsen…
The Church affirms the biblical view of divine omnipotence (often rendered as “almighty”), that God is supreme, having power over all things. No one or no force or happening can frustrate or prevent him from accomplishing his designs (D&C 3:1-3). His power is sufficient to fulfill all his purposes and promises, including his promise of eternal life for all who obey him.
However, the Church does not understand this term in the traditional sense of absoluteness, and, on the authority of modern revelation, rejects the classical doctrine of creation out of nothing. It affirms, rather, that there are actualities that are coeternal with the persons of the Godhead, including elements, intelligence, and law (D&C 93:29, 33, 35: 88:34-40). Omnipotence, therefore, cannot coherently be understood as absolutely unlimited power. That view is internally self-contradictory and, given the fact that evil and suffering are real, not reconcilable with God’s omnibenevolence or loving kindness (see Theodicy).
Theodicy is coming on the next post…
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gazelam
Guest
LDS view of Theodicy, Dr. Truman Madsen (Doctor of Philosophy, Harvard)
Theodicy is the attempt to explain God’s goodness and power and reconcile these with the evident evil in the created world. Since most theologians and religious philosophers in the West have assumed both God’s unconditional power and his absolute goodness, the existence and persistence of evil are often held to be inexplicable. In recent centuries the absence of a convincing theodicy and the frequent theological resort to mystery as an explanation have led many to atheism.
Latter-day Saint scriptural sources have reshaped certain dimensions of the problem and its resolution.
SELF-EXISTENCE AND OMNIPOTENCE. Traditionally, the affirmation of God’s sovereign power is expressed philosophically by the concept of “omnipotence,” which means that God can do absolutely anything at all, or at least anything “logically possible.” This often accompanies the dogma that all that is was created ex nihilo (from nothing) by God. The conclusion follows that all forms of evil, even the “demonic dimension,” must be directly or indirectly God-made.
In Latter-day Saint sources, God is not the only self-existent reality. The creation accounts and other texts teach that God is not a fiat creator but an organizer and life-giver, that the “pure principles of element” can be neither created nor destroyed (D&C 93; TPJS, p. 351), and that the undergirdings of eternal law, with certain “bounds and conditions,” are coexistent with him (cf. D&C 88:34-45). “Omnipotence,” then, means God has all the power it is possible to have in a universe-actually a pluriverse-of these givens. He did not create evil.
APPEARANCE AND REALITY. Often omnipotence is taken to mean that God is able to overrule or overcome whatever lesser powers interfere with his sovereign will. This view still leaves God responsible for everything that occurs, just as it occurs. It follows that if God is truly good, then, despite appearances, all that happens must be good, however horrible the “good” may seem for human beings. “Evil” then is held to be privative (an absence), simply in the human mind, or a matter of perspective. The conclusion follows that this is the best of all possible worlds. But the problem then arises all over again, for why does not God exercise his power to remove the pain that arises from mortal misunderstanding?
Latter-day Saint scripture teaches unmistakably that such things as sin and sinfulness, ignorance, deformity, disease, and death are real. As they and their effects continue to increase and prevail, then even from the perspective of God, this is a less than perfect world. Another realm is conceivable where these evils in individual and community life have been overcome.
INVIOLATE FREEDOM. Traditional thought has often held that God limits his own power for the greater good. Usually this view is associated with insistence on the importance of human freedom. Character and personality, it is argued, can develop only if human beings are genuinely free. Likewise, God’s love, if authentic, must be voluntary. These goods are held to outweigh the evil introduced by free agents into the world, even when the consequences are terribly destructive. Mormon thought concurs. Creation is indeed a “vale of soul making.” Experiences of contrast are indispensable to knowledge and growth (2 Ne. 2; D&C 122). God’s self-limitation is essential to the attainment of his purpose. Moreover, God not only will not but cannot ultimately coerce men to choose life over death. “All intelligence…is free to act for itself in that sphere in which God has placed it…. Behold, here is the agency of man and here is the condemnation of man” (D&C 93:30-31). God can bring good out of the experience of evil to the degree that his creatures harmonize their will with his and continue to seek, affirm, and embrace him. In that cooperative mode, he can, and will, enable all his creatures to become what they have it in them to become (D&C 88:14-40).
NATURAL EVIL AND THE NATURE OF POWER. It is commonly observed that not all evil is caused by human beings. Earthquakes, epidemics, plagues, volcanic eruptions, and other natural disasters occur. Furthermore, these and some evils caused by human aberration are of such magnitude as to call for divine intervention. The Holocaust is a glaring modern instance. Such considerations underscore the scriptural teaching that although God has power over the elements, and though there is divine intervention, divine influence over human beings is never “controlling” or “manipulating”; it is liberating, empowering, and persuading. This is the power continuously exercised by God, even in the midst of tragedy and affliction. It is the power most to be sought and most to be emulated.
“No power or influence,” says the Doctrine and Covenants of the uses of authority, “can or ought to be maintained…[except] by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned” (D&C 121:41). Indeed, in the exercise of power “without compulsory means,” it is not enough to say that man needs God. It is also the case, and eternally, that God needs man.
CREATIVE COMPLICITY. Some contemporary movements affirm either that human beings emerged from a long and mindless process of evolution or that they have been “thrown” or thrust into the world. Either way, creatures exist without their permission in a predicament not of their own making. Latter-day Saint thought returns to the oft-forgotten scriptural thesis that all mankind participated in the original plan of life and prepared for the hazards and traumas waiting in this world. In an act of faith and foresight, the entire human family elected to enter mortality. For Latter-day Saints the cumulative witness of sacred texts, ancient and modern, is that, with rare exceptions, every person who ever lived will have benefited from the mortal sojourn and from embodiment.
Theodicy is the attempt to explain God’s goodness and power and reconcile these with the evident evil in the created world. Since most theologians and religious philosophers in the West have assumed both God’s unconditional power and his absolute goodness, the existence and persistence of evil are often held to be inexplicable. In recent centuries the absence of a convincing theodicy and the frequent theological resort to mystery as an explanation have led many to atheism.
Latter-day Saint scriptural sources have reshaped certain dimensions of the problem and its resolution.
SELF-EXISTENCE AND OMNIPOTENCE. Traditionally, the affirmation of God’s sovereign power is expressed philosophically by the concept of “omnipotence,” which means that God can do absolutely anything at all, or at least anything “logically possible.” This often accompanies the dogma that all that is was created ex nihilo (from nothing) by God. The conclusion follows that all forms of evil, even the “demonic dimension,” must be directly or indirectly God-made.
In Latter-day Saint sources, God is not the only self-existent reality. The creation accounts and other texts teach that God is not a fiat creator but an organizer and life-giver, that the “pure principles of element” can be neither created nor destroyed (D&C 93; TPJS, p. 351), and that the undergirdings of eternal law, with certain “bounds and conditions,” are coexistent with him (cf. D&C 88:34-45). “Omnipotence,” then, means God has all the power it is possible to have in a universe-actually a pluriverse-of these givens. He did not create evil.
APPEARANCE AND REALITY. Often omnipotence is taken to mean that God is able to overrule or overcome whatever lesser powers interfere with his sovereign will. This view still leaves God responsible for everything that occurs, just as it occurs. It follows that if God is truly good, then, despite appearances, all that happens must be good, however horrible the “good” may seem for human beings. “Evil” then is held to be privative (an absence), simply in the human mind, or a matter of perspective. The conclusion follows that this is the best of all possible worlds. But the problem then arises all over again, for why does not God exercise his power to remove the pain that arises from mortal misunderstanding?
Latter-day Saint scripture teaches unmistakably that such things as sin and sinfulness, ignorance, deformity, disease, and death are real. As they and their effects continue to increase and prevail, then even from the perspective of God, this is a less than perfect world. Another realm is conceivable where these evils in individual and community life have been overcome.
INVIOLATE FREEDOM. Traditional thought has often held that God limits his own power for the greater good. Usually this view is associated with insistence on the importance of human freedom. Character and personality, it is argued, can develop only if human beings are genuinely free. Likewise, God’s love, if authentic, must be voluntary. These goods are held to outweigh the evil introduced by free agents into the world, even when the consequences are terribly destructive. Mormon thought concurs. Creation is indeed a “vale of soul making.” Experiences of contrast are indispensable to knowledge and growth (2 Ne. 2; D&C 122). God’s self-limitation is essential to the attainment of his purpose. Moreover, God not only will not but cannot ultimately coerce men to choose life over death. “All intelligence…is free to act for itself in that sphere in which God has placed it…. Behold, here is the agency of man and here is the condemnation of man” (D&C 93:30-31). God can bring good out of the experience of evil to the degree that his creatures harmonize their will with his and continue to seek, affirm, and embrace him. In that cooperative mode, he can, and will, enable all his creatures to become what they have it in them to become (D&C 88:14-40).
NATURAL EVIL AND THE NATURE OF POWER. It is commonly observed that not all evil is caused by human beings. Earthquakes, epidemics, plagues, volcanic eruptions, and other natural disasters occur. Furthermore, these and some evils caused by human aberration are of such magnitude as to call for divine intervention. The Holocaust is a glaring modern instance. Such considerations underscore the scriptural teaching that although God has power over the elements, and though there is divine intervention, divine influence over human beings is never “controlling” or “manipulating”; it is liberating, empowering, and persuading. This is the power continuously exercised by God, even in the midst of tragedy and affliction. It is the power most to be sought and most to be emulated.
“No power or influence,” says the Doctrine and Covenants of the uses of authority, “can or ought to be maintained…[except] by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned” (D&C 121:41). Indeed, in the exercise of power “without compulsory means,” it is not enough to say that man needs God. It is also the case, and eternally, that God needs man.
CREATIVE COMPLICITY. Some contemporary movements affirm either that human beings emerged from a long and mindless process of evolution or that they have been “thrown” or thrust into the world. Either way, creatures exist without their permission in a predicament not of their own making. Latter-day Saint thought returns to the oft-forgotten scriptural thesis that all mankind participated in the original plan of life and prepared for the hazards and traumas waiting in this world. In an act of faith and foresight, the entire human family elected to enter mortality. For Latter-day Saints the cumulative witness of sacred texts, ancient and modern, is that, with rare exceptions, every person who ever lived will have benefited from the mortal sojourn and from embodiment.
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TexanKnight
Guest
When you post LDS Website stuff, it is meaningless. Which prophet do you believe? The first one? The latest one? One of the ones in the middle? Do you choose the one you like best?
Tough call, huh?
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kimg901
Guest
Bravo. I keep saying that exact same thing but 
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