Question for LDS folks.

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gazelam said:
I’m copying from LDS websites here. Some of this topic is well beyond my paygrade. The first two paragraphs address the LDS view of omnipotence. The remaining paragraphs address theodicy which is related to omnipotence. This is the best I can do given my limitations on this topic.

Regarding the LDS view of Omnipotence, Author David Paulsen…
The Church affirms the biblical view of divine omnipotence (often rendered as “almighty”), that God is supreme, having power over all things. No one or no force or happening can frustrate or prevent him from accomplishing his designs (D&C 3:1-3). His power is sufficient to fulfill all his purposes and promises, including his promise of eternal life for all who obey him.

**However, the Church does not understand this term in the traditional sense of absoluteness, and, on the authority of modern revelation, rejects the classical doctrine of creation out of nothing. It affirms, rather, that there are actualities that are coeternal with the persons of the Godhead, including elements, intelligence, and law **(D&C 93:29, 33, 35: 88:34-40). Omnipotence, therefore, cannot coherently be understood as absolutely unlimited power. That view is internally self-contradictory and, given the fact that evil and suffering are real, not reconcilable with God’s omnibenevolence or loving kindness (see Theodicy).

Theodicy is coming on the next post…
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Where is the first cause? Where is the beginning with elements, intelligence and law? Where did they come from? The universe had a beginning.

Only God has always been.
 
SteveVH said:
Janderich, you have either missed my post or ignored it but I asked a very simple question to which I would appreciate an answer. You say that you believe that God is omnipotent. Do you believe that God has the capability to create something from nothing? Even if you believe that he used co-eternal, existing things in order to fashion creation, does he have the power to create from nothing should he choose to do so?
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It seems this topic goes round and round and never stops. The LDS position is logical and sound the Catholic position defies logic.
SteveVH said:
My question is this. Regardless of how God chose to create (that is assuming the Mormon position of using existing, co-eternal matter and intelligences) do you believe that God has the power to create something from nothing? Even if this is not what he chose to do, does he have the power to do it?
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Catholics always want to move this discussion to one about power. It is not about power at all it is about what is logically possible.
SteveVH said:
The point is this. You say you believe God is “omnipotent” but believe that he is not capable of creating ex nihilo, from nothing. Please explain how you can hold these opposing view points simultaneously? If God is incapable of some act then he cannot, by the very definition of the word, be omnipotent.
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God can do anything that is logically possible, and that is consistent with a perfect, and personal being.

So, It does not lessen Gods power to say that he cannot be deceived because he is all knowing. Instead, because he is all knowing, it is consistent to say that he cannot be deceived. As your St Augustine wrote:
Neither do we lessen (God’s) power when we say He cannot die or be deceived. This is the kind of inability which, if removed, would make God less powerful than He is…It is precisely because He is omnipotent that for Him some things are impossible. (City of God 5.10)
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Next, God cannot do self contradictory things. For example, He cannot create a square that is a circle. Such a thing is logically impossible. To say that God is not omnipotent because he cannot do this thing is faulty logic. So it is with this idea of creating something from nothing. Nothing is nothing. Something is something. “Nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could”. I think I could use this song and an object lesson and teach it to my four year old but because of thousands of years of false teaching, no mater what I say, I doubt you will accept it.

Do you not see that this is where any true conversation on this matter must end? You will not agree to what is and I cannot seriously accept an idea that clearly defies logic.
 
. So there we have it, again. Mormons limiting God. So logic outweighs everything? Since none of us can understand God, you try and limit Him? For what? Is it because God was once a man? A sinful man? Why do you mormons limit the Father, the Creator of all things? God can make a square from a circle, God made what it is. Oh boy, you are in trouble Jan. Whats next for God?
 
Janderich said:
It seems this topic goes round and round and never stops. The LDS position is logical and sound the Catholic position defies logic.

lol…sound to who? To you? That is the problem…YOU make God into something YOU can understand. That is heresy. God defy HIS logic…just yours. Go figure

Catholics always want to move this discussion to one about power. It is not about power at all it is about what is logically possible.

Again…logic to whom? To our puny human minds? You have to stop making God into a little pocket pet you can understand.

God can do anything that is logically possible, and that is consistent with a perfect, and personal being.

God can do anything. he is God. He does not fit into your pocket.

Next, God cannot do self contradictory things. For example, He cannot create a square that is a circle.

Says you who tried to limit God? Have you not read that with God, nothing is impossible?

Do you not see that this is where any true conversation on this matter must end? You will not agree to what is and I cannot seriously accept an idea that clearly defies logic.

Yes…we will not let you limit God. You will continue to try to limit God. Your god is the made-up one of Joe Smith. Ours is THE God…the Alpha and Omega.
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kimg901 said:
. So there we have it, again. Mormons limiting God. So logic outweighs everything? Since none of us can understand God, you try and limit Him? For what? Is it because God was once a man? A sinful man? Why do you mormons limit the Father, the Creator of all things? God can make a square from a circle, God made what it is. Oh boy, you are in trouble Jan. Whats next for God?
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Note: Not a square from a circle. A square that is at the same time a circle.
The distinction between logically possible and logically impossible acts has to do with the idea of self-contradiction. An act the description of which is self-contradictory is a logically impossible act. All other acts are logically possible.

Creating a square circle, for example, is a logically impossible act. Something is square only if it has exactly four sides. Something is a circle only if it has exactly one side. No object can have both exactly four sides and exactly one side. The idea of a square circle is thus self-contradictory, and so the act of creating a square circle is a logically impossible act.

For a being to be omnipotent, then, that being must be able to perform such feats as creating the universe, stilling the Sun in the sky, and restoring the dead to life, but need not be able to create square circles or know that which is false.philosophyofreligion.info/arguments-for-atheism/problems-with-divine-omnipotence/omnipotence-and-logically-impossible-rocks/
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Janderich said:
God can do anything that is logically possible, and that is consistent with a perfect, and personal being.
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TexanKnight:
God can do anything. he is God. He does not fit into your pocket.
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So do you disagree with St. Augustine?
 
Janderich said:
Note: Not a square from a circle. A square that is at the same time a circle.
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You did not put that. here is what you wrote. He cannot create a square that is a circle. But you still limit God. We as humans cannot do such things. God can do anything. Thats the point here. You are trying to put God on our level, a human level. We cannot fathom what God can do. Time to wake up and smell the logic 🙂
 
kimg901 said:
LOL, my bad. But you still limit God. We as humans cannot do such things. God can do anything. Thats the point here. You are trying to put God on our level, a human level. We cannot fathom what God can do. Time to wake up and smell the logic 🙂
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Good, I’m glad you see the issue with the square and circle. This is how I see something being created from nothing.

God cannot be put on a human level. Nor am I trying to put him there.
 
Mormons have to “define” their god because to them it is logical.

However, when you point out things that are illogical in mormonism, such as polygamy/church sanctioned adultery, Blacks and the priesthood, the answers you get are “we don’t know why god did that.”

You can define god,in human terms because it is “logical” but you can’t figure out racism, and adultery?

Keep going, you’re doing an admirable job. 🤷

Getting mormons to see the truth is like describing the color red to a blind person.
 
Janderich said:
Good, I’m glad you see the issue with the square and circle. This is how I see something being created from nothing.

God cannot be put on a human level. Nor am I trying to put him there.
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IMO, you are putting God on our level Jan. You are also sounding like an athiest with “This is how I see something being created from nothing.” God was and will be here, the Alpha & Omega for all time.
 
You must not really beleive in God or Christ. If you did, we wouldnt be having this conversation. Because the Holy Spirit would have comforted you from doubt and the limiting of God.
 
Janderich said:
So do you disagree with St. Augustine?
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Saint Augustine:

“God is not what you imagine or what you think you understand. If you understand you have failed.”

“He who does not have the church as his mother does not have God as his Father.”
 
Janderich said:
Did you see my question about how you view the St. Augustine quote?
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But that is from a man. Be it a saint, but we cannot know God and His power while we are of the flesh. When we are released from this world and our soul is in His Kingdom, we will then understand.
 
lax16 said:
Saint Augustine:

“God is not what you imagine or what you think you understand. If you understand you have failed.”

“He who does not have the church as his mother does not have God as his Father.”
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For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." Acts 17:23
 
Janderich said:
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." Acts 17:23
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Post it in its entirety Jan. Paul is speaking to the Athenians. You cannot pick and chose a sentence without typing the whole verse. Ill do it to " not to teach false doctrines or to concern themselves with myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the plan of God that is to be received by faith. Timothy 1"
 
Janderich said:
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." Acts 17:23
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So which do you prefer, Saint Augustine or the New Testament?
 
kimg901 said:
Post it in its entirety Jan. Paul is speaking to the Athenians. You cannot pick and chose a sentence without typing the whole verse. Ill do it to " not to teach false doctrines or to concern themselves with myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the plan of God that is to be received by faith. Timothy 1"
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👍
 
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