Question for LDS folks.

[SteveVH]

It seems this topic goes round and round and never stops. The LDS position is logical and sound the Catholic position defies logic.

Logical and sound to who? To say that God is omnipotent and then to claim that he is limited in any way is a contradiction. You truly believe in a small and dependent god who cannot be the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Catholics always want to move this discussion to one about power. It is not about power at all it is about what is logically possible.

When the subject is “omnipotence”, yes the discussion moves to one of power because that happens to be the topic being discussed. God is either all-powerful or he is not.

God can do anything that is logically possible, and that is consistent with a perfect, and personal being.

No, that is consistent with a creature who is limited by his very nature. God is limited by nothing as he is the author of everything.

What do you mean by logically possible? Is it logically possible to make the sun stand still in the sky for three days? Is it logically possible to bring the dead back to life? Human logic goes out the window when it comes to the Creator of the Universe. I would urge you to open your mind to the possiblity that our God is so great that he is subject to nothing; not “eternal laws” (as if there could be such a thing), not the laws of nature (which God himself created) and not human laws. Your idea of God progressing from a man has closed your options as to the greatness of God.

So, It does not lessen Gods power to say that he cannot be deceived because he is all knowing. Instead, because he is all knowing, it is consistent to say that he cannot be deceived. As your St Augustine wrote:

I have no idea what you are attempting to say here.

Next, God cannot do self contradictory things. For example, He cannot create a square that is a circle. Such a thing is logically impossible. To say that God is not omnipotent because he cannot do this thing is faulty logic. So it is with this idea of creating something from nothing. Nothing is nothing. Something is something. “Nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could”. I think I could use this song and an object lesson and teach it to my four year old but because of thousands of years of false teaching, no mater what I say, I doubt you will accept it.

This is the same argument atheists use: “Can God make a rock to heavy for him to lift?”

Humans find an argument that they cannot answer and then apply it to God, as if human wisdom or understanding could even begin to approach the wisdom and power of God. I just finished a great film about the life of Padre Pio. There was a little girl who had been born without pupils. The girl’s mother was taking her on the train to see Padre Pio and while on the trip she prayed for his intercession. The little girl received the gift of sight, yet she still had no pupils and lived the rest of her life with perfect sight. This miracle was documented by more than a few physicians, teachers and and countless others. How can a person with no pupils see? Is this not a logical impossibility? So one may ask; Can God create an eye with no pupils that can still see? Apparently, yes he can.

Do you not see that this is where any true conversation on this matter must end? You will not agree to what is and I cannot seriously accept an idea that clearly defies logic.

It can end here if you choose, obviously. I am satisfied that your idea of God is one of being limited to human logic and natural laws. That is not my God.

 

[lax16]

I perfer truth, whether it be found in St. Augustine or the New Testament.

Yes, keep seeking the truth Janderich!

 

[kimg901]

A question Jan. Since we are on the subject of God having limits. Did Jesus also have limits? Did He not change water into wine? Did He not raise Lazarius or any of the other miracles He done?

 

[SteveVH]

Omnipotence, therefore, cannot coherently be understood as absolutely unlimited power. That view is internally self-contradictory and, given the fact that evil and suffering are real, not reconcilable with God’s omnibenevolence or loving kindness (see Theodicy).

First of all, thank you for answering. But I am a little baffled that you have referenced an article that does a great job of refuting Mormon thought on this subject. It is exactly what we have all been trying to tell you. You cannot believe, simultaneously, that God is omnipotent and at the same time limited in his power. We all realize that this is the position in which you find yourself due to other Mormon theology, but it does not make it the least bit reasonable for belief. Please, really think about this. Janderich gave an argument that God cannot create a circle that is at the same time a square. Yet Mormons somehow can believe in a God who is at once all-powerful while being limited in his power. Does that sound logical to you?

 

[Janderich]

Janderich:

So, It does not lessen Gods power to say that he cannot be deceived because he is all knowing. Instead, because he is all knowing, it is consistent to say that he cannot be deceived.

I have no idea what you are attempting to say here.

This could be said in a number of different ways. For instance God is a being of truth. Therefore he cannot lie. To say he cannot lie does not limit His power. It is precisely because he is a God of truth that all things obey Him. If he was a liar then his power would be limited for it is through this attribute that all beings know they can trust what He says and will obey him. Therefore, because he is omnipotent he must speak truth.

 

[Janderich]

A question Jan. Since we are on the subject of God having limits. Did Jesus also have limits? Did He not change water into wine? Did He not raise Lazarius or any of the other miracles He done?

Jesus did all you say he did here and more. Again, eternal laws do not create limits, rather they allow a being to perform such works.

 

[Janderich]

Yes, keep seeking the truth Janderich!

Thnaks Lax, I wish the same to you.

 

[SteveVH]

This could be said in a number of different ways. For instance God is a being of truth. Therefore he cannot lie. To say he cannot lie does not limit His power. It is precisely because he is a God of truth that all things obey Him. If he was a liar then his power would be limited for it is through this attribute that all beings know they can trust what He says and will obey him. Therefore, because he is omnipotent he must speak truth.

Fire is not water. Truth is not a lie. God is Truth, he doesn’t just speak it, therefore God cannot lie. This has nothing at all to do with his ability, it has to do with who and what he is. God is also all-powerful which means that he is not just “really powerful” within a framework of limited options, but that his power is unlimited, subject to nothing.

 

[SteveVH]

Jesus did all you say he did here and more. Again, eternal laws do not create limits, rather they allow a being to perform such works.

If anything “allows” God do perform a work, than that “thing” has power over God. God is made subject to a “thing”. Please, open your mind to the greatness of God. He is subject to nothing, rather everything is subject to him.

 

[Janderich]

Fire is not water. Truth is not a lie. God is Truth, he doesn’t just speak it, therefore God cannot lie. This has nothing at all to do with his ability, it has to do with who and what he is. God is also all-powerful which means that he is not just “really powerful” within a framework of limited options, but that his power is unlimited, subject to nothing.

Please note your words, you say God cannot lie. Why would you say such a thing? According to your reasoning your very words limit Him.

 

[SteveVH]

Fine let me ask a simple question. Does God lie?

Did I not just say he cannot lie because his essence is Truth?

 

[Janderich]

Did I not just say he cannot lie because his essence is Truth?

Sorry please reply to my edit. Thanks.

 

[SteveVH]

Please note your words, you say God cannot lie. Why would you say such a thing? According to your reasoning your very words limit Him.

Can light at the same time be darkness? That is why God cannot lie. Please read my post again. This has nothing at all to do with the power of God. It has to do with who he is. You imagine him to be something very similar to us, only much further down the line of progression. In fact you believe that he is still progressing which means that he cannot be omnipotent; there are still things beyond his reach to which he must still progress.

This is not the nature of the God of Christianity. I’m sorry, but it just isn’t. The God of Christianity has been the same God, unchanging from eternity, complete, whole and entire; all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, ever-present. He has progressed from nothing and is the only eternal being and the source of all that exists and has ever existed, both physically and spiritually. He is the source of everything.

You truly believe in another god, one of your own making. I do not in any way wish to be uncharitable to you, Janderich. I just ask that you really think this through, in the privacy of your own thoughts. Ask yourself if it could be possible to have a God as powerful and glorious as the God we profess. The good news is that we do and I pray that you find him.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I don’t see how it makes any sense to say that God the Father and God the Mother are our literal parents when we have always existed. How can you produce offspring that have always existed, that makes no sense at all.

Eternal progression also makes no sense without eternal regression. God the Father must regress all the way back to his original state as an intelligence where he waited for another god to put him in a spirit body, then a mortal body which he then took to the next level, a glorified body.

I also don’t see any relief from the question of evil in LDS thought. God the father enabled evil intelligences by providing them first with spirit bodies and then the mortal bodies they use to wreak havoc. He either let them loose upon us intentionally as part of his plan or he was not knowledgeable enough (that limited omniscience) to know what would result. He is responsible for the evil perpetrated in this world, he created it and peopled it with those with evil intent whether by plan or ignorance.

 

[Janderich]

Can light at the same time be darkness? That is why God cannot lie. Please read my post again. This has nothing at all to do with the power of God.

My point almost exactly. See my post #327 where I say, “It is not about power at all it is about what is logically possible.” Except the issue earlier was about something comming from nothing.

 

[RebeccaJ]

IMO, you are putting God on our level Jan. You are also sounding like an athiest with “This is how I see something being created from nothing.” God was and will be here, the Alpha & Omega for all time.

Agreed, Mormon arguments against God are atheistic in nature. Is it any wonder so many former Mormons become atheists?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Can light at the same time be darkness? That is why God cannot lie. Please read my post again. This has nothing at all to do with the power of God. It has to do with who he is. You imagine him to be something very similar to us, only much further down the line of progression. In fact you believe that he is still progressing which means that he cannot be omnipotent; there are still things beyond his reach to which he must still progress.

This is not the nature of the God of Christianity. I’m sorry, but it just isn’t. The God of Christianity has been the same God, unchanging from eternity, complete, whole and entire; all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, ever-present. He has progressed from nothing and is the only eternal being and the source of all that exists and has ever existed, both physically and spiritually. He is the source of everything.

You truly believe in another god, one of your own making. I do not in any way wish to be uncharitable to you, Janderich. I just ask that you really think this through, in the privacy of your own thoughts. Ask yourself if it could be possible to have a God as powerful and glorious as the God we profess. The good news is that we do and I pray that you find him.

Steve,

Well said.

Our God is the God of whom the Psalmist wrote, whose wonder is incomprehensible. There is none like Him, and there is none who can become Him.

Psalm 89:
5 Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord,
your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones.

6 For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord?
Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord,

7 a God feared in the council of the holy ones,
great and awesome**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm 89&version=NRSVCE#fen-NRSVCE-17404b”)] above all that are around him?

8 O Lord God of hosts,
who is as mighty as you, O Lord?
Your faithfulness surrounds you.

9 You rule the raging of the sea;
when its waves rise, you still them.

10 You crushed Rahab like a carcass;
you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.

11 The heavens are yours, the earth also is yours;
the world and all that is in it—you have founded them.

12 The north and the southc]—you created them;
Tabor and Hermon joyously praise your name.

13 You have a mighty arm;
strong is your hand, high your right hand.

14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne;
steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.

15 Happy are the people who know the festal shout,
who walk, O Lord, in the light of your countenance;

16 they exult in your name all day long,
and extold] your righteousness.

17 For you are the glory of their strength;
by your favor our horn is exalted.

Monotheism and polytheism are incompatible. The one true God of Christianity is outside the comprehension of those who cling to the gods of Mormonism.

I admire your patience in these discussions with our Mormon friends. Perhaps in your kindness they will see that hopeful glimmer of the love of the true Christ.

After all, it is only through an encounter with the risen Lord that our eyes are opened to the Triune God. Christ is the author and perfecter of faith (Hebrews 12:2); and Christ promised to draw all men unto himself (John 12:32).

Steve, you are planting seeds. I pray that all hearts and minds are open to the call of Christ, and through His great mercy we may serve Him well.

Working out my salvation in fear and trembling,
Anna

 

[RebeccaJ]

This could be said in a number of different ways. For instance God is a being of truth. Therefore he cannot lie. To say he cannot lie does not limit His power. It is precisely because he is a God of truth that all things obey Him. If he was a liar then his power would be limited for it is through this attribute that all beings know they can trust what He says and will obey him. Therefore, because he is omnipotent he must speak truth.

What power does a lie have?

 

[KathleenGee]

Again…God creates law and He allows them to exist…squares, triangles, whatever…are created and have their own identities…dependent on God…again who allows them to exist.

Going back, to say that God exist and that it is logical…that there are others co-existing with Him…is saying they are independent of Him…and a foundation for polytheism, which Mormonism is and why going back Athanasius saw error in arianism…that would bring Christianity back to paganism and multiple gods.

God did not have anything before or along with Him…He Is. He is unmoved. He is the only stationary point; all else is in constant change. He wills.

He creates us in love…and freedom…and for us, free will and intellect. So that we likewise in our human endeavors have been blessed with faculties to be creative, to cultivate, to expand, to develop…

I cannot see logic in parallel causes with same effect.

 

[PuerCuriosus]

Have you checked out Mormonthink.com ?

I find it quite interesting. It is run by active mormons who are pointing out the inconsistencies etc.

The first head of the website was threatened with a “court of love”, and stepped down, but the guy who is in charge now isn’t wavering at all.

What is a court of love and do you know why the first head was threatened with it in the fist place?