Question for LDS

[cothrige]

I am wondering if perhaps a friendly local LDS will answer a small question for me. Do you believe God created the universe ex nihilo? If not, what existed prior to creation and is there any belief about where it came from?

BTW, I am asking out of a personal curiosity because I read an offhand comment somewhere online saying that the LDS reject that teaching. This wasn’t elaborated on, and I tend not to trust people speaking against somebody’s faith as they tend to have preconceived biases, and so I thought I would ask here.

Many thanks in advance for helping me out.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Brigham Young taught that Adam created this world and then brought one of his wives, Eve, from another planet, to come here and polulate the planet. He also brought seeds to plant the trees, etc.

He also taught that Adam was our God.

 

[barnesms]

Brigham Young taught that Adam created this world and then brought one of his wives, Eve, from another planet, to come here and polulate the planet. He also brought seeds to plant the trees, etc.

He also taught that Adam was our God.

Cothrige, the above is (Edited) not found in LDS Scripture, is not taught by the LDS Church, and never was. (Edited) If what I have said is incorrect Sir Thomas, please provide a reference in LDS Scripture in support (Edited).

The LDS Church does not teach that creation was ex nihilo. What it does teach is the God the Father created the earth and this universe through his Son, Jesus. Existing matter was organized as directed by God the Father into creation. I know this is very brief for such a complex question and I can elaborate if you would like; however, I would have to review some documents. Suffice it to say that this is hardly a common topic of teaching.

 

[dianaiad]

I am wondering if perhaps a friendly local LDS will answer a small question for me. Do you believe God created the universe ex nihilo? If not, what existed prior to creation and is there any belief about where it came from?

BTW, I am asking out of a personal curiosity because I read an offhand comment somewhere online saying that the LDS reject that teaching. This wasn’t elaborated on, and I tend not to trust people speaking against somebody’s faith as they tend to have preconceived biases, and so I thought I would ask here.

Many thanks in advance for helping me out.

We do not believe that God created the universe ‘ex nihilo.’ We do, however, believe that He created the universe. The whole thing.

 

[dianaiad]

Brigham Young taught that Adam created this world and then brought one of his wives, Eve, from another planet, to come here and polulate the planet. He also brought seeds to plant the trees, etc.

He also taught that Adam was our God.

You are reminding me why I had your former incarnation as Atticusfinch on ‘ignore.’ Sir, you know better than this.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

I am wondering if perhaps a friendly local LDS will answer a small question for me. Do you believe God created the universe ex nihilo? If not, what existed prior to creation and is there any belief about where it came from?

BTW, I am asking out of a personal curiosity because I read an offhand comment somewhere online saying that the LDS reject that teaching. This wasn’t elaborated on, and I tend not to trust people speaking against somebody’s faith as they tend to have preconceived biases, and so I thought I would ask here.

Many thanks in advance for helping me out.

I agree with what the LDS have said. (Of course, duh. It’s their church.) I have been in discussion about this topic many times. There are academic LDS and in particular, philosophers, who note that certain problems of Catholic philosophy are eliminated easily with creating the universe ex materia. The biggest of these would probably be free will. They tend strongly toward modern philosophy because they are strong materialists, and they tend to be dissatisfied with Catholic ways of dealing with liberty of the will in an ex nihilo context.

You do so very well in that you “tend not to trust people speaking against somebody’s faith as they tend to have preconceived biases.” We Catholics are not immune to this affliction. I always try to remember St. Thomas in the Summa where before he gives the correct response, he uses every means to defend the positions he does not believe. This noble approach to error, which attempts to minimize error, without compromising with it, is partly why he was a great saint. Nobody is wrong about everything, and I don’t guess there are any prizes in heaven for over-emphasizing and exaggerating the errors of those who oppose the Catholic faith.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Cothrige, the above is (Edited) not found in LDS Scripture, is not taught by the LDS Church, and never was. (Edited) If what I have said is incorrect Sir Thomas, please provide a reference in LDS Scripture in support (Edited).

The LDS Church does not teach that creation was ex nihilo. What it does teach is the God the Father created the earth and this universe through his Son, Jesus. Existing matter was organized as directed by God the Father into creation. I know this is very brief for such a complex question and I can elaborate if you would like; however, I would have to review some documents. Suffice it to say that this is hardly a common topic of teaching.

It was taught AND preached by Brigham Young, and LDS prophet. The facts Mormons now run from it is further proof their “prophets” are not really prophets.

 

[barnesms]

It was taught AND preached by Brigham Young, and LDS prophet. The facts Mormons now run from it is further proof their “prophets” are not really prophets.

It was declared false doctrine by the LDS Church. It was never doctrine of the Church because it was never added to scripture or considered a revelation. More importantly, Cothrige asked for a LDS to provide an answer because** I tend not to trust people speaking against somebody’s faith**. Not only did you ignore the editor request, you did not address the topic, which was ex nihilo. In addition, after being clearly corrected in continue to ignore the topic of creation ex nihilo and not the Adam God Theory.

For an ecumenical activity to exist, we must respect one another personally and we must respect the beliefs of others. We should not misstate, distort, twist, or deceive others. Doing so is not apologetics and never has been at any time in history. Worst of all, there is nothing Christ-like in such action.

 

[cothrige]

We do not believe that God created the universe ‘ex nihilo.’ We do, however, believe that He created the universe. The whole thing.

Thanks for the answer. I gather from this above that you are setting aside any argument that there were two creations, right? Do LDS have any formed beliefs or ideas about the pre-existing material? Did it have an origin, or is its existence simply deduced from the language of the relevant scriptures?

In reading my questions here I can’t shake thinking that this will look like a setup. I do hope you don’t think so, as that really is not in my mind. I promise you, and all LDS reading this, I will not use your answers as some springboard to build arguments and attack your beliefs. I really am just interested in how real LDS view this issue and what it means in your faith.

Thanks again for the answer.

 

[Publisher]

I’m not LDS…but as far as the “two creations”…I believe the Joseph Smith Translation of Genesis has one “creation” spiritual…and the other material…before anything ever becomes “material” it is formed in the spiritual realm. I’m sure I’m not explaining this correctly…I do own a copy of the JST published by Herald House(RLDS) and the Pearl of Great Price’s “Book of Moses” which is pretty much the material in the JST.

 

[cothrige]

Suffice it to say that this is hardly a common topic of teaching.

I can see how that could be, but for whatever reason I felt compelled to ask about it. Maybe the idea of creation speaks directly to a particular view of the concept of what God is. I guess it does for me as a Catholic. It reflects to a degree the otherness of the Deity. Though it may be a less common topic for teaching would you say that it plays a role in how you see God? Is it an important distinction to the LDS?

 

[Kdesiel]

I am wondering if perhaps a friendly local LDS will answer a small question for me. Do you believe God created the universe ex nihilo? If not, what existed prior to creation and is there any belief about where it came from?

BTW, I am asking out of a personal curiosity because I read an offhand comment somewhere online saying that the LDS reject that teaching. This wasn’t elaborated on, and I tend not to trust people speaking against somebody’s faith as they tend to have preconceived biases, and so I thought I would ask here.

Many thanks in advance for helping me out.

I’m not a member of the LDS church. I can speak for how I veiwed such matters when I was a member of the LDS Church.
I didn’t believe God Created the Universe Ex Nihilo or out of nothing, I believed God Organized Matter which was already in existance.

 

[barnesms]

I can see how that could be, but for whatever reason I felt compelled to ask about it. Maybe the idea of creation speaks directly to a particular view of the concept of what God is. I guess it does for me as a Catholic. It reflects to a degree the otherness of the Deity. Though it may be a less common topic for teaching would you say that it plays a role in how you see God? Is it an important distinction to the LDS?

I am not sure it is an important distinction. In reality, the vast majority of LDS never even consider it. When there is not a paid clergy or a clergy that is academically trained you will find an absence of in depth theological writings. For those LDS that are academically trained in religious topics, it is a topic of a discussion.

For them, and for some of the prophets that have broached the topic, it has been stated that God did not create the universe ex nihilo. I think by this fact there is a reflection on the role God plays, or nature of God, but it is beyond the conscious thought of the average LDS.

You may want to know that LDS do not consider an “otherness” toward God. LDS believe that he is both our Father and Creator. Through the Atonement of Jesus we may return back to our Father and be joint-heirs with Jesus as Paul said in Romans 8:17. In a very real sense, through Christ we have the opportunity for deification or Theosis. LDS call it exaltation. Regardless, we do not see an otherness to God, but he is our Father and we are his children. Does that help or did I diverge off your topic?

 

[Kdesiel]

I forgot to address your question about matter prior to creation and where it came from.

I guess I formed my own opinions it isn’t something regularly addressed in Church.
From my knowledge God created Worlds without number. These worlds are/were in varrying degrees of progression. This would suggest to me a time line, that some worlds were organized prior to Our World and some were organized after our World. So I guess I just figured the matter was there because our Creation was some where in the middle or towards the end…
Of course what I’ve just stated is not Official LDS doctrine it is the view points I developed from what I had been taught when I was LDS.

 

[barnesms]

I’m not LDS…but as far as the “two creations”…I believe the Joseph Smith Translation of Genesis has one “creation” spiritual…and the other material…before anything ever becomes “material” it is formed in the spiritual realm. I’m sure I’m not explaining this correctly…I do own a copy of the JST published by Herald House(RLDS) and the Pearl of Great Price’s “Book of Moses” which is pretty much the material in the JST.

I think you have the gist of it correctly. For LDS all of creation was first created spiritually by God and then using that spiritual creation, he proceeded to create the physical world.

As an aside, the JST edition does not equate to the Pearl of Great Price in content or message. They both are very different.

 

[Kdesiel]

I am not sure it is an important distinction. In reality, the vast majority of LDS never even consider it. When there is not a paid clergy or a clergy that is academically trained you will find an absence of in depth theological writings. For those LDS that are academically trained in religious topics, it is a topic of a discussion.

For them, and for some of the prophets that have broached the topic, it has been stated that God did not create the universe ex nihilo. I think by this fact there is a reflection on the role God plays, or nature of God, but it is beyond the conscious thought of the average LDS.

You may want to know that LDS do not consider an “otherness” toward God. LDS believe that he is both our Father and Creator. Through the Atonement of Jesus we may return back to our Father and be joint-heirs with Jesus as Paul said in Romans 8:17. In a very real sense, through Christ we have the opportunity for deification or Theosis. LDS call it exaltation. Regardless, we do not see an otherness to God, but he is our Father and we are his children. Does that help or did I diverge off your topic?

I think those are very good points you’ve made Barnes. When I was LDS I could honestly say I didn’t give a whole lot of thought towards this issue. It wasn’t until I had some questions arise and through personal introspection did I have some of these questions come to mind.

The LDS beleive God the Father is absolutely God, the Creator and our Father.
It is a part of Eternal Progression. In the LDS theology man may progress to the point that he may Become or Become Like Unto God. There has been a lot of speculation as to what exactly this means. Does a faithful Man through Eternal progression ultimately become a God with creations of his own? i.e. Worlds; Universe’s
When I was LDS I had understood that if I were to be faithful to the commandments of the Lord and true to my Temple covenants I would be able to progress to the point of being God like or as God is now. That my progression to deity only added to the Glory of God so as I progressed towards deity, my accomplishments would be a direct reflection of my God. His Glory would be magnified not diminished.
The famous quote is “As God is Man may become, as Man is God once Was.”

I think we could do a whole thread on this topic as well. If you think about it there are some very interesting implications with this belief.

 

[cothrige]

Regardless, we do not see an otherness to God, but he is our Father and we are his children. Does that help or did I diverge off your topic?

No, it is extremely helpful. I have no familiarity with the internal workings of the LDS or LDS theology. It is quite interesting to learn more. I do very much appreciate the information.

 

[cothrige]

This would suggest to me a time line, that some worlds were organized prior to Our World and some were organized after our World.

I hadn’t thought about time and creation, but reading this I do wonder. Perhaps you or a current LDS here could go a bit further on the relation of the two in LDS theology? If matter existed before creation how would that relate to time? In Catholic belief we see God as eternal, i.e. existing outside of time, and that he created time when he did matter, which is subject to constant change. Would the matter that existed prior to creation be inside or outside of time? I guess what I am saying is would that material be eternal? Is God eternal, and if so is that roughly equivalent to the Catholic idea of eternity?

Perhaps barnesms or dianaiad will share some thoughts on this. I would love to know how they feel about these things.

 

[zerinus]

I am wondering if perhaps a friendly local LDS will answer a small question for me. Do you believe God created the universe ex nihilo?

No, we do not believe in ex nihilo creation.

If not, what existed prior to creation . . .

What existed prior to creation were “elements” (matter?) and “intelligence,” neither of which has been clearly defined in LDS scripture.

. . . and is there any belief about where it came from?

The assumption is that they have always existed. Nothing has been revealed about where they came from.

 

[Publisher]

I think you have the gist of it correctly. For LDS all of creation was first created spiritually by God and then using that spiritual creation, he proceeded to create the physical world.

As an aside, the JST edition does not equate to the Pearl of Great Price in content or message. They both are very different.

I know the PoGP contains the “Book of Abraham” and a revelation to Joseph F. Smith…but I thought the “Book of Moses” and the section of “Matthew” were both from the JST. I realize the JST doesn’t include the “Book of Abraham.”