Question for Lifeteen supporters

[rosetta_stone]

How do you reconcile the use of rock and contemporary music in the liturgy when in 1985 then Cardinal Ratzinger in a lecture on Liturgy and Church Music said this:

“Music has become today the decisive vehicle of a counter-religion and thus the scene of the discernment of spirits in a form that we could not have suspected a generation ago. Because rock music seeks redemption by way of liberation from the personality and its responsibility, it takes, in one respect, a very precise position in the anarchical ideas of freedom which predominate today in a more unconcealed way in the West than in the East. But precisely for that reason, it is thoroughly opposed to the Christian notion of redemption and of freedom as its exact contradiction. Not for aesthetic reasons, not from reactionary obstinacy, not from historical immobility, but because of its very nature music of this type must be excluded from the Church.”

full article: adoremus.org/0408SacredMusic.html

 

[promethius]

How do you reconcile the use of rock and contemporary music in the liturgy when in 1985 then Cardinal Ratzinger in a lecture on Liturgy and Church Music said this:

“Music has become today the decisive vehicle of a counter-religion and thus the scene of the discernment of spirits in a form that we could not have suspected a generation ago. Because rock music seeks redemption by way of liberation from the personality and its responsibility, it takes, in one respect, a very precise position in the anarchical ideas of freedom which predominate today in a more unconcealed way in the West than in the East. But precisely for that reason, it is thoroughly opposed to the Christian notion of redemption and of freedom as its exact contradiction. Not for aesthetic reasons, not from reactionary obstinacy, not from historical immobility, but because of its very nature music of this type must be excluded from the Church.”

full article: adoremus.org/0408SacredMusic.html

Not a life-teener, but I can answer this:

1. Cardinal Ratzinger is not infallible, nor are his opinions on musical taste necessarily dogmatic (or even necessarily are they formed to disciplines which must be followed). Pope Benedict is a different story.
2. Rock music as a genre in the early 1980s lacked the “Christian Rock” subset that is present today. As such, the changed form of lyrics represent a fundamental shift in purpose of the songs, and negate what Cardinal Ratzinger was (rightly) saying at the time.

 

[ahollars]

I was at World Youth Day in Denver, 1993. I clearly remember Michael W. Smith singing lead at one of the masses for the Pope. There were others whose names didn’t exactly go down in history, but everyone today has heard “We Are One Body”, and I have no problem hearing this song during communion.

 

[benedictgal]

Not a life-teener, but I can answer this:

1. Cardinal Ratzinger is not infallible, nor are his opinions on musical taste necessarily dogmatic (or even necessarily are they formed to disciplines which must be followed). Pope Benedict is a different story.
2. Rock music as a genre in the early 1980s lacked the “Christian Rock” subset that is present today. As such, the changed form of lyrics represent a fundamental shift in purpose of the songs, and negate what Cardinal Ratzinger was (rightly) saying at the time.

Not quite. The Spirit of the Liturgy was written on or about the year 2000. So, his observations are right-on target. Furthermore, when the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Holy Eucharist discussed some of the shadows plaguing the Mass, “the music at Youth Masses” was on the list.

This prompted the Holy Father to note, in Sacramentum Caritatis that “certainly, we cannot say that one song is as good as another” as far as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is concerned.

Furthermore, Michael W. Smith, to my knowledge, is not Catholic. Incidentally, one does not “sing lead” at a Mass. The person serves as the Cantor. Such terminology is already a good indication that the music is more performance based than liturgical. Simon Le Bon sings lead for Duran Duran. If he were to sing at Mass, he would be cantoring, not functioning as the lead singer.

 

[Cat]

Because my bishop, an ordained apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, says it’s OK. I believe him. That settles it.

As far as I understand the teaching of the Catholic Church, a bishop’s ruling in his diocese trumps a Cardinal’s written personal opinion.

 

[rosetta_stone]

I will freely admit that the music in Lifeteen has not beeen officially banned but it fails to meet the standards set forth in Sacrosanctum Concilium from Vatican II which states that Gregorian Chant should have pride of place in the liturgy. Furthermore as noted above the Pope still holds the same opinion as he held in 1985.

 

[Leopard]

I will freely admit that the music in Lifeteen has not beeen officially banned but it fails to meet the standards set forth in Sacrosanctum Concilium from Vatican II which states that Gregorian Chant should have pride of place in the liturgy. Furthermore as noted above the Pope still holds the same opinion as he held in 1985.

For Gregorian Chant to be given pride of place does not mean that all other forms of music must be excluded from all liturgies.

 

[rosetta_stone]

For Gregorian Chant to be given pride of place does not mean that all other forms of music must be excluded from all liturgies.

Yes but Lifeteen liturgies exclude Gregorian chant completely and how would praise and worship music fit in with a schola.

 

[PrairieMom]

Not quite. The Spirit of the Liturgy was written on or about the year 2000. So, his observations are right-on target. Furthermore, when the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Holy Eucharist discussed some of the shadows plaguing the Mass, “the music at Youth Masses” was on the list.

This prompted the Holy Father to note, in Sacramentum Caritatis that “certainly, we cannot say that one song is as good as another” as far as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is concerned.

Furthermore, Michael W. Smith, to my knowledge, is not Catholic. Incidentally, one does not “sing lead” at a Mass. The person serves as the Cantor. Such terminology is already a good indication that the music is more performance based than liturgical. Simon Le Bon sings lead for Duran Duran. If he were to sing at Mass, he would be cantoring, not functioning as the lead singer.

I find this interesting that this has been brought up. We used to have a Life Teen mass, but it morphed into the 12:30 “Family Mass”. I can’t stand it, especially the drums. I don’t see how they have a place in the Mass.

I’m just learning about these things, but my personal feeling is that the integration of “rock music” into Mass is an example of the insidious dilution of the sacred with the secular and ordinary. It’s a very slippery slope.

And no, Michael W. Smith is most certainly not Catholic, although now I have a very strange mental image of Simon Le Bon singing the Psalm…

 

[Leopard]

Yes but Lifeteen liturgies exclude Gregorian chant completely…

Then in that case:

1. The same criticism would apply to any Mass which completely excluded Gregorian Chant, including a Mass that only included old traditional Catholic Hymns that happen not to be Gregorian chant, and
2. The criticism would cease to apply at a Mass with Lifeteen style music that also included some Gregorian chant.

Would you consider a Mass of the second kind to be musically superior or more liturgically correct than a Mass of the first kind on the basis of the inclusion of as few as one Gregorian Chant selections? If not, then the argument based on complete exclusion of Gregorian Chant is not sufficient.

 

[Cat]

Is Gregorian chant required for a Mass to be licit or valid? I think not.

The bishop is allowed the authority by the Church to make certain decisions for his diocese, including what kind of Masses are offered at different parishes. It is not seemly to question his authority.

 

[benedictgal]

It is interesting to note that even the founder of World Youth Day, the late Pope John Paul II, made some very pointed observations regarding sacred music. In is Chirograph on Sacred Music, the Holy Father notes that:

1. On various occasions I too have recalled the precious role and great importance of music and song for a more active and intense participation in liturgical celebrations[9]. I** have also stressed the need to “purify worship from ugliness of style, from distasteful forms of expression, from uninspired musical texts which are not worthy of the great act that is being celebrated”[10], to guarantee dignity and excellence to liturgical compositions**.

He further adds that:

1. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, “sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action”[11].** For this very reason, “not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.**

St Pius X’s reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able “to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

1. Another principle, affirmed by St Pius X in the Motu Proprio Tra le Sollecitudini and which is closely connected with the previous one, is that of sound form. There can be no music composed for the celebration of sacred rites which is not first of all “true art” or which does not have that efficacy “which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her Liturgy the art of musical sounds”[15].

Now, he is not saying that we cannot have new music. What he is saying is that this music needs to conform itself to the Church and not the other way around. Unfortunately, the publshing houses who are the purveyors of the kind of music used at LifeTeen Masses or other Masses with youth have not, as I have seen it and experienced it, read any of the Papal documents, let alone any other authoritative documents of the Holy See, regarding Sacred Music.

 

[shannyk]

I don’t understand why teenagers need to have a certain genre of music at mass to begin with. I think Lifeteen is insulting and pandering to teenagers. You can have youth groups without all that nonsense. I was in one, and I survived mass without rock music, go figure. It goes ot the whole idea of mass having to be entertainment to keep people coming, which is ridiculous. Mass should be sacred which means set APART from the everyday, mundane and inane. I shouldn’t hear the same type of music at mass I can hear on the radio TV, whatever.

No that doesn’t’ answer your question at all, sorry, but the whole Lifeteen thing gets me going.

 

[benedictgal]

Is Gregorian chant required for a Mass to be licit or valid? I think not.

The bishop is allowed the authority by the Church to make certain decisions for his diocese, including what kind of Masses are offered at different parishes. It is not seemly to question his authority.

We are not talking about licit and ilicit here. What we are talking about is the fact that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass carries with it a sense of propriety regarding Sacred Music. Incidentally, Pope Jonn Paul II noted in his Chirograph on Sacred Music that:

1. With regard to compositions of liturgical music, I make my own the “general rule” that St Pius X formulated in these words: “The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple”[33]. It is not, of course, a question of imitating Gregorian chant but rather of ensuring that new compositions are imbued with the same spirit that inspired and little by little came to shape it. Only an artist who is profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae can attempt to perceive and express in melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy[34]. In this perspective, in my Letter to Artists I wrote: “How many sacred works have been composed through the centuries by people deeply imbued with the sense of mystery! The faith of countless believers has been nourished by melodies flowing from the hearts of other believers, either introduced into the Liturgy or used as an aid to dignified worship. In song, faith is experienced as vibrant joy, love and confident expectation of the saving intervention of God”[35].

As I said in my previous post, that is not to say that modern compositions are not allowed. What he means is that they must always have the Sensus Fidei, the authentic Sense of the Faith, and should conform to the Mass and not the other way around. Would that anyone involved in music ministry, or in the liturgy, for that matter, take the time to read the authoritative documents of the Holy See and the popes rather than what the music publishers suggest.

 

[promethius]

Yes but Lifeteen liturgies exclude Gregorian chant completely and how would praise and worship music fit in with a schola.

The funny thing is, in 19 years I can count on my hands and feet how many times i’ve heard ACTUAL gregorian chanting in church. Lifeteen doesn’t exclude gregorian chant any more than most parishes do these days.

 

[benedictgal]

The funny thing is, in 19 years I can count on my hands and feet how many times i’ve heard ACTUAL gregorian chanting in church. Lifeteen doesn’t exclude gregorian chant any more than most parishes do these days.

But, Lifeteen does not have any and it uses music that is the exact opposite of what Gregorian Chant is. Furthermore, most parishes would not use the praise and worship genre in their Masses. At LifeTeen, it is a given.

 

[Cat]

We are not talking about licit and ilicit here. What we are talking about is the fact that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass carries with it a sense of propriety regarding Sacred Music. Incidentally, Pope Jonn Paul II noted in his Chirograph on Sacred Music that:

As I said in my previous post, that is not to say that modern compositions are not allowed. What he means is that they must always have the Sensus Fidei, the authentic Sense of the Faith, and should conform to the Mass and not the other way around. Would that anyone involved in music ministry, or in the liturgy, for that matter, take the time to read the authoritative documents of the Holy See and the popes rather than what the music publishers suggest.

How is the determination made as to which music has the “Sensus Fidei?”

Who is charged with this responsibility?

 

[benedictgal]

How is the determination made as to which music has the “Sensus Fidei?”

Who is charged with this responsibility?

The composers should read the authoritative documents of the Holy See and be very familiar with Catholic doctrine. Their lyrics need to match up with what the Church teaches and with the Church’s liturgical theology. Songwriters need to take that responsibility.

 

[jmcrae]

The funny thing is, in 19 years I can count on my hands and feet how many times i’ve heard ACTUAL gregorian chanting in church. Lifeteen doesn’t exclude gregorian chant any more than most parishes do these days.

I do hear it, and it remains pretty much at the same frequency as I’ve been hearing it since 1991, when we moved into this parish - not so much in the hymnody as in the chants - the Gospel Acclamation is often sung in Gregorian Chant, for example, and the prayers at Adoration are often chanted, as well (and usually in Latin, in my parish, although I’ve also heard them chanted in English, as well).

For the Stations of the Cross, I have only been present once when Stabat Mater was not chanted - usually in English rather than in Latin, but it’s still a Gregorian chant, even when it’s in English.

 

[Dicerning]

I was at World Youth Day in Denver, 1993. I clearly remember Michael W. Smith singing lead at one of the masses for the Pope. There were others whose names didn’t exactly go down in history, but everyone today has heard “We Are One Body”, and I have no problem hearing this song during communion.

That is the worst time of the liturgy to be singing that song. It confuses the meaning of holy communion. Its not a fraternal banquet. (as john paul II said in Ecclesia de Eucharistia)