Question for Lifeteen supporters

[promethius]

And again, if you missed my post in response, music is a language of emotion. Music that goes “ra ta ta ta TA ta ta” is not suitable for the Holy Mass, regardless of what lyrics are set to it, because that is a war drum beat - and war drums don’t belong at Mass. (I hope you agree.)

Maybe you should learn about music before making this claim. Most rock music is written in the same beat as viennese waltz, that’s ONE two three, TWO two three, and doesn’t at all resemble a military cadence beat. Further, MANY old hymns DO function off the same beats as military cadences, and I’ve heard “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” played in more than one cathedral.

Gregorian chant is fairly unique, but hymns and rock songs are always set to a variety of beats.

And for the person who said that drums are innappropriate in a mass, I guess that means Mozart’s requiem is entirely innappropriate music for mass then as well. Same goes for the complaint that emotive music isn’t appropriate… the requiem is INCREDIBLY moving… does that mean it should be banned?

 

[Leopard]

However, let’s revisit what the founder of WYD, Pope John Paul II, wrote:

…that not all expressions of the figurative arts and of music are capable “of adequately expressing the Mystery worshipped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”. As a consequence, not all musical forms can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations…

Except that Pope John Paul isn’t saying definite, at least not in the excerpt quoted. He says not all forms are suitable. He does not say which forms, and why.

 

[Michael_Welter]

You yourself wrote that it is Christian Contemporary Music that you use. Did you not? Perhaps you might want to provide examples. Just because something appears in the OCP Spirit and Song books that does not necessarily make it fit for use for the Mass. Shine Jesus, Shine and the works of Michael W. Smith are in this song book. These are certainly not fit for the Mass.

The Church has always allowed Contemporary Christian Music (music written during the period of use) to be used at Mass. There are many Catholic songwriters writing Contemporary Christian Music that is appropriate for Mass. Granted, there are also Catholic composers writing music that they think is appropriate for Mass, which is not. We don’t use that music in at our Life Teen Mass.

 

[Leopard]

…music is a language of emotion… Music that sets loose the elemental passions… are also unsuitable…

Gregorian chant is suitable because it is both serious and joyful - this is a perfect blend of emotions for the Mass. …

I agree in principle, but the problem is that emotions are extremely subjective. There is no one genre of music, or even one specific musical composition that will elicit the same emotional response in all listeners. There are people for whom no genre of music will set lose the passions, there are others for whom practically any music will do so. There are even people who detest Gregorian chant and find it irrelevant and joyless.

As an aside, I find it interesting that people who say that certain music is emotionally perfect for the Mass (and I am not referring to anyone here, I have these discussions with many people in lots of places), that these same people will criticize other people for going to other churches where they find the music emotionally satisfying. They say that the purpose of going to Church is not to be entertained but to Worship Jesus. A position that I fully agree with by the way. But I find it interesting that these people do not see any conflict between their own emotional pleasure and their worship, but they do in others.

 

[Michael_Welter]

I agree in principle, but the problem is that emotions are extremely subjective. There is no one genre of music, or even one specific musical composition that will elicit the same emotional response in all listeners. There are people for whom no genre of music will set lose the passions, there are others for whom practically any music will do so. There are even people who detest Gregorian chant and find it irrelevant and joyless.

You make an excellent point here. I love Gregorian chant, but I have no idea how to sing it, and cannot understand the lyrics. If I attend a Mass with Gregorian chant, and am not able to fully, actively, and consciously participate in the Mass. In fact, I find it more entertaining that worshipful. Many people find it worshipful. I thank God that we belong to a church that embraces diversity, rather than denying it.

 

[Cat]

You make an excellent point here. I love Gregorian chant, but I have no idea how to sing it, and cannot understand the lyrics. If I attend a Mass with Gregorian chant, and am not able to fully, actively, and consciously participate in the Mass. In fact, I find it more entertaining that worshipful. Many people find it worshipful. I thank God that we belong to a church that embraces diversity, rather than denying it.

I agree with this. So it has a sense of the faith? I don’t get it. And since benedictgal says that “The bottom line is that it should be the responsibility of composers, music publishers and yes, even church musicians, to read what the authoritative documents of the Holy See say about Sacred Music. There are some who may not want to read these documents because it will be a severe wake up call to them indicating that what they are doing is not quite what the Chruch has in mind regarding Sacred Music. Yes, you try your best with the gift God gives you, but, the Church also gives you the tools, her documents, in order to carry out what needs to be done”, then that means that I, myself, can make the decision regarding which music I think it appropriate for Mass, and since I personally don’t “get” Gregorian chant and can’t understand why it has “faith sense,” then I don’t think it is appropriate for Mass.

 

[kage_ar]

On this point, you and I agree. However, in my experience, the music at our Life Teen is very conducive to prayer. Too loud at times? Yes. Certainly not perfect, but deep down I know that many of these teens would walk away were it not for Life Teen and its music. I’m not willing to give them up.

How sad. Prayers that these teens have a true conversion of heart.

 

[kage_ar]

Having attended a couple of CCM/Life Teen masses, here is an example of songs that have no business in Mass that I have heard during Mass:

Our God is an Awesome God
Trading My Sorrows
The Heart of Worship
The Happy Song

Even something like Sanctuary - it is so “I” “Me” focused, that it is iffy for use in Mass.

 

[perfectpeach]

On this point, you and I agree. However, in my experience, the music at our Life Teen is very conducive to prayer. Too loud at times? Yes. Certainly not perfect, but deep down I know that many of these teens would walk away were it not for Life Teen and its music. I’m not willing to give them up.

God isn’t enough?

 

[rosetta_stone]

Okay can anyone supporting the use of praise and worship music find documents supporting its appropriateness for Mass. Furthermore, to those questioning why does this matter, Pope Benedict has directly said that he believes that liturgical breakdown is largely responsible for the crisis in the Church.

All music is not equal. The Pope clearly established this in the original link i posted if anyone would actually read it. Music is not subjective!
repost below:
adoremus.org/0408SacredMusic.html****

 

[Leopard]

Okay can anyone supporting the use of praise and worship music find documents supporting its appropriateness for Mass. Furthermore, to those questioning why does this matter, Pope Benedict has directly said that he believes that liturgical breakdown is largely responsible for the crisis in the Church.

All music is not equal. The Pope clearly established this in the original link i posted if anyone would actually read it. Music is not subjective!
repost below:
adoremus.org/0408SacredMusic.html****
Regardless as to whether music itself may be subjective, it certainly seems that individuals’ opinions of what kinds of music fit the qualifications set by various popes and/or cardinals who would later become popes is subjective.

I have read the the article, and I don’t see where the qualifications described by then Cardinal Ratzinger do not apply to music I have heard at certain Masses primarily celebrated for and assisted at by young people. The music I have heard “…permits joy again, a higher kind of ecstasy which does not extinguish the person but unites and thus liberates him…” as well as any chants I have heard, possibly better in certain circumstances.

I don’t know. Maybe you’re hearing different music at your Masses than we hear at ours.

 

[promethius]

All music is not equal. The Pope clearly established this in the original link i posted if anyone would actually read it. Music is not subjective!
repost below:
adoremus.org/0408SacredMusic.html****

Again, I point out to you that said document was NOT written by the pope, but rather by CARDINAL RATZINGER. TRY to remember that they are two separate lives with different levels of teaching authority. This is promulgating a sense of increased authority with a deception that the POPE wrote this. What cardinal ratzinger wrote before he became pope, even if of the form of an ex cathedra statement, is nothing more than an informed opinion.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Okay can anyone supporting the use of praise and worship music find documents supporting its appropriateness for Mass.

See Psalm 150, the Word of God.

 

[benedictgal]

See Psalm 150, the Word of God.

You still have not answered the question regarding authoritative documents of the Church. What you cite would not even fit. The cultic worship of Ancient Israel used a mode similar to Gregorian Chant. The pslams were chanted. Just because the psalms mentioned these particular instruments, that does not mean that they were used in the cultic worship of Ancient Israel. I am curious. Have you ever read any of the authoritative documents of the Holy See regarding Sacred Music? I believe that this is a fair question to ask you and those who support the particular genre used by LifeTeen.

Furthermore, one does not need to understand Latin with regard to Gregorian Chant, as many of these hymns have been translated into English. Let’s take the Attende Domine, for example:

Hear us, O Lord, and have mercy, because we have sinned against Thee.
Hear us, O Lord, and have mercy, because we have sinned against Thee.

To Thee, highest King,
Redeemer of all,
do we lift up our eyes
in weeping:
Hear, O Christ, the prayers
of your servants.

Hear us, O Lord, and have mercy, because we have sinned against Thee.

Right hand of the Father,
corner-stone,
way of salvation,
gate of heaven,
wash away our
stains of sin.

Hear us, O Lord, and have mercy, because we have sinned against Thee.

We beseech Thee, God,
in Thy great majesty:
Hear our groans
with Thy holy ears:
calmly forgive
our crimes.

Hear us, O Lord, and have mercy, because we have sinned against Thee.

To Thee we confess
our sins admitted
with a contrite heart
We reveal the things hidden:
By Thy kindness, O Redeemer,
overlook them.

Hear us, O Lord, and have mercy, because we have sinned against Thee.

The Innocent, seized,
not refusing to be led;
condemned by false witnesses
because of impious men
O Christ, keep safe those
whom Thou hast redeemed.

Hear us, O Lord, and have mercy, because we have sinned against Thee.

What about the Pange Lingua, the Traditional Hymn of the Holy Thursday procession:

SING, my tongue, the Savior’s glory,
of His flesh the mystery sing;
of the Blood, all price exceeding,
shed by our immortal King,
destined, for the world’s redemption,
from a noble womb to spring.

Of a pure and spotless Virgin
born for us on earth below,
He, as Man, with man conversing,
stayed, the seeds of truth to sow;
then He closed in solemn order
wondrously His life of woe.

On the night of that Last Supper,
seated with His chosen band,
He the Pascal victim eating,
first fulfills the Law’s command;
then as Food to His Apostles
gives Himself with His own hand.

Word-made-Flesh, the bread of nature
by His word to Flesh He turns;
wine into His Blood He changes;-
what though sense no change discerns?
Only be the heart in earnest,
faith her lesson quickly learns.

Down in adoration falling,
Lo! the sacred Host we hail;
Lo! o’er ancient forms departing,
newer rites of grace prevail;
faith for all defects supplying,
where the feeble sense fail.

To the everlasting Father,
and the Son who reigns on high,
with the Holy Ghost proceeding
forth from Each eternally,
be salvation, honor, blessing,
might and endless majesty.
Amen. Alleluia.

Both of these sacred hymns, set to Gregorian chant, express a true Sense of the Faith. The Attende Domine calls God to have mercy on us because of our condition as sinners. Do any of the PW songs even make mention of sin, or, is it a feel good experience?

The Pange Lingua expresses the beauty of the Holy Eucharist in clear terms. In these short lines written by no less than St. Thomas Aquinas, himself, feature a precise teaching of the Holy Eucharist.

To make the argument that you shouldn’t have Gregorian Chant because it’s in Latin and no one understands it, when there are English translations for many of these hymns is a poor battle to pick.

Young people should learn these hymns. This is the Church’s heritage. This is the point that the Holy Father has been making even when he was Cardinal Ratzinger. By the way, to those of you who are quick to point out that this was merely his opinion as Cardinal Ratzinger, please read what he stated in Sacramentum Caritatis, now as Pope Benedict XVI. What he wrote about as Cardinal Ratzinger is emerging now that he is the Supreme Pontiff and Chief Liturgist of the Church.

 

[benedictgal]

The Church has always allowed Contemporary Christian Music (music written during the period of use) to be used at Mass. There are many Catholic songwriters writing Contemporary Christian Music that is appropriate for Mass. Granted, there are also Catholic composers writing music that they think is appropriate for Mass, which is not. We don’t use that music in at our Life Teen Mass.

Please show us the documents where this is stated. As far back as Pope St. Pius X, the Church has taken great pains to purify the kind of music used at Mass.

 

[Michael_Welter]

You still have not answered the question regarding authoritative documents of the Church. What you cite would not even fit. The cultic worship of Ancient Israel used a mode similar to Gregorian Chant. The pslams were chanted. Just because the psalms mentioned these particular instruments, that does not mean that they were used in the cultic worship of Ancient Israel. I am curious. Have you ever read any of the authoritative documents of the Holy See regarding Sacred Music? I believe that this is a fair question to ask you and those who support the particular genre used by LifeTeen.

Yes, of course I’ve read the Church documents, non of which prohibits contemporary music, as such would violate God’s command to “Sing a new song unto the Lord.” The Church will never violate Scripture in her teaching.

To make the argument that you shouldn’t have Gregorian Chant because it’s in Latin and no one understands it, when there are English translations for many of these hymns is a poor battle to pick.

I never said you shouldn’t have Gregorian chant or Latin. I love Gregorian chant and find it entertaining. For me, it is not worshipful, so I attend a Mass with music that draws me into worship.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Please show us the documents where this is stated. As far back as Pope St. Pius X, the Church has taken great pains to purify the kind of music used at Mass.

When Gregorian chant was first introduced into the Church, it was contemporary christian music. Contemporary simply means that it is used in the same era in which it is written. From the time of the apostles, the Church has always used contemporary, as well as older music, in worship.

 

[benedictgal]

Yes, of course I’ve read the Church documents, non of which prohibits contemporary music, as such would violate God’s command to “Sing a new song unto the Lord.” The Church will never violate Scripture in her teaching.

I never said you shouldn’t have Gregorian chant or Latin. I love Gregorian chant and find it entertaining. For me, it is not worshipful, so I attend a Mass with music that draws me into worship.

Which documents have you read? Have you read Musicam Sacram, the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy, the Motu Propio of St. Pius X, or the letter that Pope John Paul II wrote to mark that Motu Propio’s centennary? These documents give a clear picture of what should be used and what should not be used.

Gregorian Chant is not entertaining. It is the Church’s most solemn and sacred form of music. Contemporary Christian Music is more along the lines of entertainment, as it sounds like something you would hear on a secular station. Furthermore, if you were to plumb the texts (the English translations) of the Gregorian hymns, you would find that, as I pointed out in my response to you, that they express the deepest corre of our Faith, an authentic Senus Fidei.

The Church never said that new compositions were not allowed; however, as Pope John Paul II observed:

. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, “sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action”[11]. For this very reason, “not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

St Pius X’s reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able “to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

Pope John Paul II recognized the importance of Scripture:

In fact, by continuing the ancient biblical tradition to which the Lord himself and the Apostles abided (cf. Mt 26: 30; Eph 5: 19; Col 3: 16), the Church has encouraged song at liturgical celebrations throughout her history, providing wonderful examples of melodic comment to the sacred texts in accordance with the creativity of every culture, in the rites of both West and East.

The attention my Predecessors thus paid to this delicate sector was constant. They recalled the fundamental principles that must enliven the composition of sacred music, especially when it is destined for the Liturgy. Besides Pope St Pius X, other Popes who deserve mention are Benedict XIV with his Encyclical Annus Qui (19 February 1749), Pius XII with his Encyclicals Mediator Dei (20 November 1947) and Musicae Sacrae Disciplina (25 December 1955), and lastly Paul VI, with the luminous statements that punctuated many of his Speeches.

I would suggest that you might want to read the documents that Pope John Paul II made as his points of reference when he wrote this document. None of these have been abrogated by the Church.

Remember, too, that we are not a sola scriputa Church. The Bible came from the Church, not the other way around. Furthermore, we are also based on Sacred Tradition. Gregorian Chant, which takes its form from the chants of Ancient Israel, is the Sacred Music proper to the New Israel, that is to say, the Church.

 

[benedictgal]

When Gregorian chant was first introduced into the Church, it was contemporary christian music. Contemporary simply means that it is used in the same era in which it is written. From the time of the apostles, the Church has always used contemporary, as well as older music, in worship.

That is a bit of a stretch. However, we were one Church at that time. Furthermore, Gregorian Chant finds its roots in the chanting of the psalms by Ancient Israel. Contemporary Christian Music is Protestant, by nature.

You have yet to provide any authoritative document of the Holy See to prove your point. Even if the most modern of songs were to be incorporated into the Mass, it must still pass the guidelines set forthh in the documents of the Holy See.

Furthermore, if CCM were allowed to be used, why would the bishops make this kind of music used at Youth Masses, a shadow? Why would they specifically call it out? Why would the Holy Father have noted, in his official response, that as far as music used for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is concerned, “one song is not good as another?”

 

[Leopard]

…You have yet to provide any authoritative document of the Holy See to prove your point. Even if the most modern of songs were to be incorporated into the Mass, it must still pass the guidelines set forthh in the documents of the Holy See…

You have yet to prove that contemporary music, either all or specific compositions, can not pass said guidelines. Citing a document without establishing a negative relationship between the guidelines contained therein and the music in question does not constitute a proof.