Question for Maronites

[Angel_Gabriel]

Let me start off by saying that I’ve never been to a Maronite Church and have only seen their liturgies on youtube. Of course lurking on here the past few years, I have often read of the latinizations (both new and old) that have taken over the Maronite Church.

Now, my question is this: why do you stay in your Church? If the liturgy is devoid of tradition and full of latinizations, what makes you stay even if you dislike them? Have you ever considered becoming Orthodox because if it? (And yes I know there is no official Orthodox counterpart for the Maronite Church)

I’m not trying to be snarky or anything, I honestly want to know.

 

[bben15]

Latinizations are no excuse for leaving the Catholic Church.

 

[dzheremi]

Oh, this is not going to end well…

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Oh, this is not going to end well…

I kept debating whether or not I should post this but curiosity got the better of me…

please everyone, stay on topic…I’m really not interested in hearing Roman Catholic views on Eastern Christians and their liturgies…

 

[malphono]

Let me start off by saying that I’ve never been to a Maronite Church and have only seen their liturgies on youtube. Of course lurking on here the past few years, I have often read of the latinizations (both new and old) that have taken over the Maronite Church.

Now, my question is this: why do you stay in your Church? If the liturgy is devoid of tradition and full of latinizations, what makes you stay even if you dislike them? Have you ever considered becoming Orthodox because if it? (And yes I know there is no official Orthodox counterpart for the Maronite Church)

I’m not trying to be snarky or anything, I honestly want to know.

I can only suggest one answer: because we’re Maronites. We survived the Byzantine Empire which hated our guts. We survived the Arab invasions. We survived Ottoman domination for some 800 years. We even survived Rome from the late 16th Century onward. None of it was easy, but we survived and have the scars to prove it.

Now, the current situation is far more insidious than anything that came before because it’s self-imposed. We may well not survive the self-imposed, on-going and never-ending, trend of Novus Ordo-inspired neo latinizations, but it won’t be for lack of trying. Some of us still care enough to buck the system. If at least some of us didn’t care, we’d be traitors to our forebearers who held fast in their resistance. Likewise must we hold fast.

 

[malphono]

Oh, this is not going to end well…

Most likely not. But I’ve said my piece and, as the old line goes, “so it is written, so it shall be done!” (Why do I feel like Cecil B. DeMille?)

 

[MorEphrem]

Basically malphono’s reasoning, there’s always hope that we’ll weather the storm like we have so many times before. Call it hopeless idealism (which I certainly do not ascribe to) but I believe, in the end, people will realize it is more important to worship God reverently than it is to abbreviate and conform.

 

[judynurse]

When I lived in Dayton, Ohio, there was a Maronite Church only a few blocks from me, whereas I had to drive to another suburb to attend a Roman Catholic Church. Someone I knew at my Catholic Parish there told me that the Maronite Church was in Communion with the Vatican, and Roman Catholics could attend their Liturgy and receive Communion there. I never did, since I was unsure if this was true. Is it? (This was in 1990).

I also knew a family who were born in the U.S., but raised Russian Orthodox. (Parents & Grandparents were Russian immigrants.) They told me that since the Russian Orthodox Church nearest them (at that time) was about 5 hours away, that it didn’t matter that they only went a couple of times a year, since Russian Orthodox members could take a cracker or piece of bread, say a prayer & therefore have Communion in their homes! This sounds strange to me, since I understand that all the Orthodox Churches are very strict. They wanted me to join them in their “home Communion”, but I declined. They also said they were permitted two divorces, but the third one was permanent (lifelong) as in the Roman Catholic Church.

Can anyone answer any or all of these questions? THANK YOU FOR ANY INFORMATION. MOSTLY CURIOUS, BUT WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE TRUTH ON ALL OF THESE.

P.S. Where in the Middle East are Maronites from? What country or countries? Is the language of their Liturgy Aramaic?

 

[malphono]

…

I will address only the Maronite question. The Russian Orthodox I leave to others who may be more qualified in Byzantine affairs.

When I lived in Dayton, Ohio, there was a Maronite Church only a few blocks from me, whereas I had to drive to another suburb to attend a Roman Catholic Church. Someone I knew at my Catholic Parish there told me that the Maronite Church was in Communion with the Vatican, and Roman Catholics could attend their Liturgy and receive Communion there. I never did, since I was unsure if this was true. Is it? (This was in 1990).

Yes, it’s all true.

P.S. Where in the Middle East are Maronites from? What country or countries? Is the language of their Liturgy Aramaic?

Our origins are in the Levant: Lebanon, Syria, Israel, and even Cyprus. There is a long-standing diasporal community in Egypt as well. And yes, our traditional language (albeit that it’s unfortunately not used all that often these days but I digress) is the West-Syriac dialect of Aramaic.

 

[ronyodish]

Angel Gabriel,

Most Eastern Christians, especially in the homeland territories, are identified as part of a group of people bound together not just by faith but by a common cultural and ethnic origin. So a Lebanese Maronite, for example, is not just an individual among a diversity of other individuals. A Lebanese Maronite, by and large, comes from a family of Maronite and Lebanese people. Asking a Maronite to become something else is tantamount to rejection of one’s family, ancestry, and history.

This is completely different from the individualistically-oriented mentality of western american culture. The common practice of church hopping in american life is alien to the group-oriented mentality of ancient eastern cultures. We just don’t reject our faith and culture for alternatives when our faith and culture is suffering. We may explore and enjoy the practices of other cultures, but we just don’t convert to anything else, generally speaking.

If I have misrepresented anything about the Maronites, I’m sure malphono will let me have it.

God bless,

Rony

 

[judynurse]

I will address only the Maronite question. The Russian Orthodox I leave to others who may be more qualified in Byzantine affairs.

Yes, it’s all true.

Our origins are in the Levant: Lebanon, Syria, Israel, and even Cyprus. There is a long-standing diasporal community in Egypt as well. And yes, our traditional language (albeit that it’s unfortunately not used all that often these days but I digress) is theSyriac dia West-lect of Aramaic.

 

[malphono]

If I have misrepresented anything about the Maronites, I’m sure malphono will let me have it.

O aHi, Rony, if you’ve misrepresented anything about the Maronites, then you’ve misrepresented the same about the Chaldeans. Which is to say, right on! tawdi

I suppose I shouldn’t (you know, **dzheremi’**s prediction and all ), but I’ll add this:

There are those who will scream and moan about the “ethnic connection” … those who hate anything to do with it and want to be 100% “mercan” and wave our collective (i.e, not just the Maronites) history, origins, and traditions off with a flick of the hand. I’m sure you run into that type. From time-to-time, one even finds them here on this board. I’ve said umpteen times that to completely sever the “ethnic connection” is to sever us from our roots. And without our roots, we cannot not survive.

 

[judynurse]

Malphono: I thought the original language of the Maronites was Aramaic or a version of it. When the movie (by Mel Gibson) came out “Passion of the Christ” in a form of Aramaic, I saw in a newspaper that a group of Orthodox Catholics in New York were thrilled because they could understand the dialogue without English subtitles. I know only a small amount of Aramaic, some is similar to Hebrew, and as I watched the DVD, after seeing the film in a theater, I began to understand more of the words, although I cannot understand it well or speak the language. Since your posts show “Syro-Maronite”, I assume you are from the Syrian Maronite group. There is a Maronite Church about 4 hours away from me in the state to the north of me (Missouri). I don’t know which group of Maronites they are from, but I’d like to attend the Liturgy there at least once.

I saw an Orthodox Mass on TV, and the Priest distributed the Holy Eucharist with a silver spoon, dipping the small Host into the Presious Blood then place it into the mouth of the congregation. Do the Maronites do the same? I also noticed that all the women wore a veil, just as I did pre-Vatican II. I don’t want to do anything that would be scandalous if I attend, so would like to know these two things. I’ve attended Masses in several languages which I did not understand, but I felt that God was there, and felt at home, so Aramaic would not bother me. I don’t understand a lot of Latin either, but still feel comfortable and enjoy the Mass anyway.

Thank you for the information. Hope you can answer these questions also. I enjoyed the Orthodox (Greek) Mass I saw, and would like to attend the Maronite as well.

God Bless you for your remaining in the Church you love!

 

[MorEphrem]

Malphono: I thought the original language of the Maronites was Aramaic or a version of it. When the movie (by Mel Gibson) came out “Passion of the Christ” in a form of Aramaic, I saw in a newspaper that a group of Orthodox Catholics in New York were thrilled because they could understand the dialogue without English subtitles. I know only a small amount of Aramaic, some is similar to Hebrew, and as I watched the DVD, after seeing the film in a theater, I began to understand more of the words, although I cannot understand it well or speak the language. Since your posts show “Syro-Maronite”, I assume you are from the Syrian Maronite group. There is a Maronite Church about 4 hours away from me in the state to the north of me (Missouri). I don’t know which group of Maronites they are from, but I’d like to attend the Liturgy there at least once.

As malphono did say, the Maronite Church’s liturgical language is a Western dialect of Aramaic called Syriac, although I doubt it was the Maronites who were excited over the use of Aramaic in the film since most [Lebanese] Maronites have no interest in the language. The use of “Syro” does not denote Syrian but rather Syriac, the language and ethnic group that binds all of the West Syriac Churches (Maronite, Syriac Catholic, Syriac Orthodox).

I should just give a friendly note and say there is no such thing as an “Orthodox Catholic.” Orthodox and Catholic refer to two (technically three) distinct communions; Maronites are in the Catholic Communion.

I saw an Orthodox Mass on TV, and the Priest distributed the Holy Eucharist with a silver spoon, dipping the small Host into the Presious Blood then place it into the mouth of the congregation. Do the Maronites do the same? I also noticed that all the women wore a veil, just as I did pre-Vatican II. I don’t want to do anything that would be scandalous if I attend, so would like to know these two things. I’ve attended Masses in several languages which I did not understand, but I felt that God was there, and felt at home, so Aramaic would not bother me. I don’t understand a lot of Latin either, but still feel comfortable and enjoy the Mass anyway.

There are many different types of “masses.” What you probably saw on TV was some form of the Byzantine divine liturgy. The Syriac “mass” (called qurbono qadisho - holy offering) is completely different. That being said, Maronites do not administer communion with a spoon because most (~99.5%) priests use unleavened bread (and the ones who do use leavened bread just intinct by hand). Wearing a veil would be an act of personal piety and is not a necessary dictate (by no means even common within the Maronite Church anymore).

The Maronite mass is mostly not in Syriac (or Aramaic) because of certain liturgical reform to “modernize” the liturgy. The chances are in which ever parish you attend Arabic will be the main language and Syriac will be relegated to the (1) entrance to the sanctuary, (2) Trisaigon, (3) entrance to the sanctuary, (4) Institution Narrative and (5) perhaps a part of the epiclesis.

God Bless you for your remaining in the Church you love!

I know this isn’t directed to me, but likewise.

 

[malphono]

As malphono did say, the Maronite Church’s liturgical language is a Western dialect of Aramaic called Syriac, although I doubt it was the Maronites who were excited over the use of Aramaic in the film since most [Lebanese] Maronites have no interest in the language.

Basically true but let’s not forget Sa’id Aql, et. al, and the revival movement. And you have to admit that a few of us, at least, were thrilled to hear it.

 

[dzheremi]

[Edit: to Mor Ephrem’s explaining of “Syro”.]

Regarding the “Orthodox Catholics” who understood the language of Mel Gibson’s movie, those were more than likely not Maronites, but Syriac Orthodox people (members of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, which is one of the Oriental Orthodox churches, not in communion with Rome). These are another grouping of the Syriac people, but unlike the Maronites they are primarily associated with the Syriac villages of Southern Turkey in the Tur 'Abdin/Mardin region, as well as nearby areas of Syria and northern Iraq (particularly Mosul/Nineveh, which is also home to Christians of other confessions). Many of them still speak their dialects of modern Syriac (the largest of which is known as Turoyo or Suryoyo, though it’s spoken more in Sweden now than in the Middle East). By contrast, the Maronites lost their language sometime between the 15th and 18th century, depending on which source you believe. The huge number of Syriac-derived place names, as well as unique features of Lebanese and Syrian Arabic, testify to the deep roots of the Syriac language in that part of the world, but the only people in Lebanon who speak any variety of the language natively are going to be refugees/immigrants/their descendants from Iraq or, more recently, Syria. There are efforts to revive the language among the Maronites, but they are not greatly supported in Lebanon proper (or at least not to the degree that they are in Israel, from what I understand).

Some examples of Syriac Christianity in its various forms, just for fun (and because it’s beautiful and all):

Maronite Easter hymn "Koymo Maryam

Modern interpretation of Syriac Orthodox hymn to the Theotokos “Mani dakhwoth” (Who is like me?)

Much more traditional Syriac Orthodox chant from the Beth Gazo (treasury of church chants), sung by departed Patriarch HH Mor Ignatius Yaqub III (d. 1980)

Assyro-Chaldean (East Syriac) prayer “Lakhu Maran”

Malankara Syriac Orthodox (Indian) commemoration of our Orthodox fathers (I can’t remember the title in Syriac, but its much easier-to-find Malayalam translation is “Orthodukso vishwasham”)

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Angel Gabriel,

Most Eastern Christians, especially in the homeland territories, are identified as part of a group of people bound together not just by faith but by a common cultural and ethnic origin. So a Lebanese Maronite, for example, is not just an individual among a diversity of other individuals. A Lebanese Maronite, by and large, comes from a family of Maronite and Lebanese people. Asking a Maronite to become something else is tantamount to rejection of one’s family, ancestry, and history.

This is completely different from the individualistically-oriented mentality of western american culture. The common practice of church hopping in american life is alien to the group-oriented mentality of ancient eastern cultures. We just don’t reject our faith and culture for alternatives when our faith and culture is suffering. We may explore and enjoy the practices of other cultures, but we just don’t convert to anything else, generally speaking.

If I have misrepresented anything about the Maronites, I’m sure malphono will let me have it.

God bless,

Rony

Very interesting, thanks This sounds a lot like Judaism in respect to identifying with a nationality and faith…or am I way off here?

I admit, I can understand the desire to stay with your culture but haven’t really experienced it b/c I am, as I like to say, a Western European mutt lol . When I had informed my mom that I was not going to be Roman Catholic anymore she wondered how I could leave my culture and traditions behind. Of course I thought “what culture?..and which traditions?” Irish, German, French, English, Welsh…which one? So I don’t have any particular nationality or language that I’m attached to other than the one I grew up speaking (English). I love all cultures and love learning about everyone and trying everything as long as I am made to feel welcome. It’s probably why the OCA is so appealing to me…it’s not so ethnocentric and is a lot like the typical anglo Roman Catholic parish in that regard.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Basically malphono’s reasoning, there’s always hope that we’ll weather the storm like we have so many times before. Call it hopeless idealism (which I certainly do not ascribe to) but I believe, in the end, people will realize it is more important to worship God reverently than it is to abbreviate and conform.

This is not unlike a lot of Roman Catholics I know who hope for a return to a more reverent Mass.

 

[MorEphrem]

This is not unlike a lot of Roman Catholics I know who hope for a return to a more reverent Mass.

Yes but the difference is it is permissible to use the 1962 missal whereas you’d probably get suspended for using the 1908 as a Maronite priest.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Yes but the difference is it is permissible to use the 1962 missal whereas you’d probably get suspended for using the 1908 as a Maronite priest.

Really? why?