Question for Maronites

[dzheremi]

Very interesting, thanks This sounds a lot like Judaism in respect to identifying with a nationality and faith…or am I way off here?

Like most Jews, I am not Middle Eastern, but I would think that the presence of so many secular and even atheistic/agnostic Jews makes this a less than apt comparison. Besides, if the Maronites, Chaldeans, and other Syriacs are nationalities (as opposed to ethnolinguistic and/or ethnoreligious groups), where are their nations? Any Assyrian (and I use that term broadly here) nation predates Christianity, though there was of course the kingdom of Osroene under King Abgar, but something tells me that’s not what you mean…

This is not a minor matter, of course, given the sad divisions between Syriac people owing to their ecclesiastical identities, but I would imagine that what Rony is talking about is applicable even to those outside of Syriac Christianity entirely. The Copts, after all, have the same intense attachment to their Church, but they certainly don’t identify that with nationalism beyond affirming that to be Coptic is to be Egyptian, even when the opposite does not hold (anymore). That’s not so much nationalism (though Copts do tend to be quite patriotic) as it is historical accuracy. I’m sure all the Syriacs of whatever church would say the same, as they predate the Arabs, Turks, Kurds, and others in their midst who have largely shaped the national identities of their homelands since the rise of Islam. (Blehhhh.)

I admit, I can understand the desire to stay with your culture but haven’t really experienced it b/c I am, as I like to say, a Western European mutt lol . When I had informed my mom that I was not going to be Roman Catholic anymore she wondered how I could leave my culture and traditions behind. Of course I thought “what culture?..and which traditions?” Irish, German, French, English, Welsh…which one?

Hahaha. I know what you mean, but feel compelled to point out that this is a Euro/Euro-American (~ “white”) problem, not an ecclesiastical one. I absolutely guarantee you that to others, “European mutt” is a culture all its own. This is reinforced to me every Christmas-time, for instance, when I inevitably get phone calls from Coptic friends on December 25th wishing me “Merry Christmas”, in recognition of the distinctly American/European holiday. I reciprocate on January 7 in order to wish them a blessed Nativity feast. They’re not only different dates, they’re entirely different celebrations/commemorations, though we may stuff ourselves on January 7th just the same. (And, at least here in NM, the Copts have adopted Thanksgiving as an unofficial holiday as well…that’s certainly not on the Coptic calendar!)

It’s probably why the OCA is so appealing to me…it’s not so ethnocentric and is a lot like the typical anglo Roman Catholic parish in that regard.

Well, it was in some sense designed to be that way (a distinctly ‘American’ Orthodox Church), but again: American is a culture, or rather several (which, not coincidentally, break down along cultural and ethnic lines). It just probably doesn’t seem that way to you because you are, as you put it, a “Northern European mutt” in a society in which you are a part of the overall majority, so it doesn’t feel ‘ethnic’ to you like it probably would to a mestizo Hispanic person, an Indian, an African or African-American (or Afro-Caribbean, or whatever), etc.


Pictured: White people celebrate their lack of ethnicity together with some ethnic friends

 

[ronyodish]

Very interesting, thanks This sounds a lot like Judaism in respect to identifying with a nationality and faith…or am I way off here?

You are correct that we (Chaldeans, Maronites, etc.) are a lot like Jews, in that, our faith, ethnicity, language, and culture are all interwoven together, which forms among us a strong bond and cohesiveness. But, this does not mean that we reject outsiders from joining us. Like any other Christian church, we are bound by the Lord’s words to “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19).

It’s just that, we are first and foremost, churches that are rooted in the cultures of the East, and all our cradle members, and those who join us, must understand that our roots lie in the East, in the lands of the Scriptures and the Prophets, the deserts of the Saints and the Fathers.

God bless,

Rony

 

[ronyodish]

This is not a minor matter, of course, given the sad divisions between Syriac people owing to their ecclesiastical identities, but I would imagine that what Rony is talking about is applicable even to those outside of Syriac Christianity entirely.

Yeah, this also applies to Eastern Christians of non-Syriac origin, like for example, the cradle Greek Orthodox of Greece for example. They are just as protective of their Greek version of Christianity as we are of our Syriac/Aramaic Christianity.

I am trying to make a comparison between group-oriented people who value strongly their received traditions and cultures, such that they would be willing to die for them, versus individualistically-oriented people who are willing to swap different traditions and faiths, always seeking a “greener pasture”. The former are willing to suffer any challenges presented by their received tradition, the latter are only committed in as far as the tradition satisfies their present hunger.

I apologize in advance if this will offend western people, but I find that westerners, particularly american westerners, are more of the latter in the above paragraph, then the former. And by american westerners, I am referring to westerners of various confessions.

I could be wrong in my assumptions, and sometimes, I am.

God bless,

Rony

 

[dzheremi]

I think that point about American Westerners relates quite well to the OP’s comment about being a “Western European mutt”, actually. Not to put words in the OP’s mouth, but I would imagine that people who don’t feel themselves to be strongly identified with any given culture in general might not see the value in sticking to a particular ecclesiastical tradition that is strongly identified with one – sort of like, “Well, I’m not any of these ethnicities anyway, so it doesn’t really matter which one I choose”. Granted, even this way of looking at things betrays a sort of surface level understanding that portends a lot of church-hopping in their future, but, y’know…in my short time so far with the Copts, I have noticed that many of our Western visitors are curious about Coptic Christianity in a ‘typological’ sense in so far as is observable in one visit (e.g., “your chants are so unique”, “your icons are so beautiful”, “wow, Egyptian Christianity!”), but they don’t come back to learn anything more. It’s like they’re satiated by the experience of the liturgy at face value, even if it is a one-time experience (or maybe especially after a one-time experience, given how overwhelming it can be if you come from a Latin or Protestant background where things are much more brief, much less sensual/tactile, etc.)

I don’t know where I’m going with this…it’s just something I’ve noticed. From my own point of view as an American Westerner, it’s not so much feeling satiated or anything like that. In fact, often I am exhausted just by attending liturgy and by the 90 minute mark I am more interested in resting than chanting another 41 Kyrie Eleisons or whatever. But, just as in fasting or any of the other disciplines of the Church, we are to keep going so as to bring the body and the rational mind under the discipline of the soul. A great many people can be attracted to hymns (or not, in the case of Coptic hymns and the Western ear) or icons or whatever, but the practical spirituality is something else. Maybe some Maronites, seeing how much “easier” being like the Latins is, and how much more the Latin mindset seems to gel with a cushy Western life (much of what we consider modern ‘Western culture’ having been formed directly or indirectly by the religious impulses of the Latin church or its daughters, the Protestants), would take a lot of convincing and/or deprogramming before they can see the beauty of their own patrimony?

Usually at some point during the Great Fast, some jokester in my parish makes some comment about how they’re going to convert to “Greek” (read: Chalcedonianism) so that they can cut down the length and severity of the Fast…but of course they’d never actually do it. A Copt who stops fasting is like a shark that stops swimming…

 

[judynurse]

WOW! I think I will have to re-orient (no pun intended) my mind around the various forms of “Catholic” (which of course = Universal, anyway). I certainly enjoyed all the education thrown my way in the past posts! I did not realize that “Syriac” covered so much! By the way, the Mass I saw on TV was of the Greek Orthodox Liturgy, and only showed about 1 1/2 hrs. of it, which the translator (tv supplied) said was “a portion” of the complete Liturgy being given. I think it was near Easter when it was shown, and I found it fascinating. Like a lot of people who were raised Roman rite Catholic, I tend to think of “Orthodox” as one community, but of course there are differences among them as well. I knew Coptic Christianity originally came from Egypt, (love History books, movies), but did not know that the Syro - was so extensive! I did see a show on EWTN or Discovery (??) which showed a Church (Christian) and ethnic group living in Jerusalem which still speaks Aramaic. I think there are some also living in Bethlehem, who have lived there since the time of the Apostles, and who have been Christian all these centuries, although surrounded by an Arabic/Islanmic culture.

As for the discussions re: ethnicity – I am the result of marriages between Irish, Scottish (can you find a more explosive combination !!LOL) and American Indians of at least 3 tribes. The first ancestors I can trace come from Ireland & Scotland. An Irishman basically escaping to North America (way before 1776) married a young Scottish girl on board during the voyage & she was expecting their first child when they landed. They have been a long, dearly beloved story in my family. Their eldest son married an American Indian lady, and this was about 100 years prior to the American Revolution, actually in the 1600’s! Oddly, I do not think of myself as coming from “Western European”, since Scotland became mostly Protestant and half of Ireland. Our family traditionally disliked England for historical reasons – both the young Irishman and the Scottish lass were trying to escape the English – headed off and started a farm on the “frontier” – about 100 to 150 miles from the Atlantic Maryland & Virginia colonies!
Mostly because they were Catholic at a time when that wasn’t so safe, and Scotland and large parts of Ireland were in rebellion anyway against the English.

 

[dzheremi]

This video might interest you, Judy: Syriac Orthodox evening prayers from St. Mark’s convent, Jerusalem

The language being used in the prayers is Syriac, and the people using it also speak modern Western Syriac/Aramaic. The archbishop in the video is H.E. Mor Severios Malki Mourad, Syriac Orthodox Archbishop of Jerusalem. The monastery they are praying in is that of St. Mark, which stands on what is recorded as the “first church” of Christianity, being the home of St. Mark’s mother, Mary, and the site of the last supper and hence first liturgy. It has been the center of the Syriac Orthodox Church in the Holy Land for longer than anyone can remember (for example, St. Epiphanius mentions it in the late 4th century as having escaped destruction together with 7 other local churches and synagogues).

 

[Rafkqa]

Oh, this is not going to end well…

I am very mindful of this and am really taking it that the OP is asking the question out of genuine curiosity.

I think it is important to recognise that the views expressed by some on this forum are not necessarily the views of the majority of Maronites, although I acknowledge that some views expressed on here are representative of some Maronites.

I think it is important to understand that like any Church, the Maronite Church it has a diversity of opinion. I do not think that the posts on this forum necessarily capture that diversity.

To answer the questions - why do I stay in my Church? Very simple, because I believe in it and I love it, it really does define the person I am today and it is a wonderful place for my family and I to grow. I do not believe the liturgy is devoid of tradition and I have never considered becoming Orthodox.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Hahaha. I know what you mean, but feel compelled to point out that this is a Euro/Euro-American (~ “white”) problem, not an ecclesiastical one. I absolutely guarantee you that to others, “European mutt” is a culture all its own. This is reinforced to me every Christmas-time, for instance, when I inevitably get phone calls from Coptic friends on December 25th wishing me “Merry Christmas”, in recognition of the distinctly American/European holiday. I reciprocate on January 7 in order to wish them a blessed Nativity feast. They’re not only different dates, they’re entirely different celebrations/commemorations, though we may stuff ourselves on January 7th just the same. (And, at least here in NM, the Copts have adopted Thanksgiving as an unofficial holiday as well…that’s certainly not on the Coptic calendar!)

Well, it was in some sense designed to be that way (a distinctly ‘American’ Orthodox Church), but again: American is a culture, or rather several (which, not coincidentally, break down along cultural and ethnic lines). It just probably doesn’t seem that way to you because you are, as you put it, a “Northern European mutt” in a society in which you are a part of the overall majority, so it doesn’t feel ‘ethnic’ to you like it probably would to a mestizo Hispanic person, an Indian, an African or African-American (or Afro-Caribbean, or whatever), etc.

Point taken you are right that the European American culture has become tradition for many of us who are 5th and 6th generation Americans.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

I think that point about American Westerners relates quite well to the OP’s comment about being a “Western European mutt”, actually. Not to put words in the OP’s mouth, but I would imagine that people who don’t feel themselves to be strongly identified with any given culture in general might not see the value in sticking to a particular ecclesiastical tradition that is strongly identified with one – sort of like, “Well, I’m not any of these ethnicities anyway, so it doesn’t really matter which one I choose”. Granted, even this way of looking at things betrays a sort of surface level understanding that portends a lot of church-hopping in their future, but, y’know…in my short time so far with the Copts, I have noticed that many of our Western visitors are curious about Coptic Christianity in a ‘typological’ sense in so far as is observable in one visit (e.g., “your chants are so unique”, “your icons are so beautiful”, “wow, Egyptian Christianity!”), but they don’t come back to learn anything more. It’s like they’re satiated by the experience of the liturgy at face value, even if it is a one-time experience (or maybe especially after a one-time experience, given how overwhelming it can be if you come from a Latin or Protestant background where things are much more brief, much less sensual/tactile, etc.)

I don’t know where I’m going with this…it’s just something I’ve noticed. From my own point of view as an American Westerner, it’s not so much feeling satiated or anything like that. In fact, often I am exhausted just by attending liturgy and by the 90 minute mark I am more interested in resting than chanting another 41 Kyrie Eleisons or whatever. But, just as in fasting or any of the other disciplines of the Church, we are to keep going so as to bring the body and the rational mind under the discipline of the soul. A great many people can be attracted to hymns (or not, in the case of Coptic hymns and the Western ear) or icons or whatever, but the practical spirituality is something else. Maybe some Maronites, seeing how much “easier” being like the Latins is, and how much more the Latin mindset seems to gel with a cushy Western life (much of what we consider modern ‘Western culture’ having been formed directly or indirectly by the religious impulses of the Latin church or its daughters, the Protestants), would take a lot of convincing and/or deprogramming before they can see the beauty of their own patrimony?

Usually at some point during the Great Fast, some jokester in my parish makes some comment about how they’re going to convert to “Greek” (read: Chalcedonianism) so that they can cut down the length and severity of the Fast…but of course they’d never actually do it. A Copt who stops fasting is like a shark that stops swimming…

I can relate to this. I want to add that I’m not a member of the OCA…yet (although my husband and I are seriously considering it) and am still involved in the UGCC mission here. The good thing about our mission is that none of us is ethnically Ukrainian or even cradle Eastern. The bad thing is that we do draw curious Latins who think our “mass is cool” and “unique”…but who also insist on bringing their western ideals and customs with them…which in my opinion is “not cool”. I honestly doubt that they would like it if I refused to kneel after Communion at a Roman church…but that’s a topic for another discussion lol.

When I first got involved in this I too thought similar things…oh what a beautiful liturgy etc etc etc. i even started going to the Latin Mass here b/c I wanted a reverent liturgy. But I came to find out that it wasn’t just the liturgy that I found beautiful in the Byzantine tradition. It was the whole theology and way of life that drew me in…and unexpectedly I might add!. And it’s one of the reasons I stopped going to the Latin Mass…one can only hear so many time “time off in purgatory”…and I still cringe when I think of it lol! It was then that I realized that I believed in the Byzantine theology and that it wasn’t just the liturgy and customs that I liked. If you had told me when I was growing up that I might be Orthodox one day I would have laughed at you…I just never thought that would happen. But here I am and the reality of it is,well, very real. The Fasting is definitely a hard thing to get used to but the benefits of it are so great…I can’t imagine not doing it anymore! (of course being pregnant my fasts are a bit different right now)

We don’t have any Oriental Churches in our city but there is a Coptic Church about 2 hours away and I would like to see it. I admit I love everything Egyptian and the Coptic Church is no exception I have also wanted to go to a Maronite Church but after having heard that it’s so similar to a Roman Mass I now think “what’s the point?”

 

[babochka]

Let me start off by saying that I’ve never been to a Maronite Church and have only seen their liturgies on youtube. Of course lurking on here the past few years, I have often read of the latinizations (both new and old) that have taken over the Maronite Church.

Now, my question is this: why do you stay in your Church? If the liturgy is devoid of tradition and full of latinizations, what makes you stay even if you dislike them? Have you ever considered becoming Orthodox because if it? (And yes I know there is no official Orthodox counterpart for the Maronite Church)

I’m not trying to be snarky or anything, I honestly want to know.

I am Byzantine, not Maronite, but I just attended my first Maronite liturgy last week (and feasted at their festival), so that makes me an expert, right?

Although the feel of the church was very Latin and their were some obvious Latinizations, this was clearly a different liturgy. I particularly loved the prayer of farewell to the altar(?) at the end. The prayers of the liturgy were different, the chanting was robust and beautiful. I was saddened by what I saw as clear Latinizations and I pray that the Maronite church finds its way, as so many Byzantine-rite churches seem to be doing, but what I experienced was certainly not the same as the Roman Mass.

 

[Aramis]

When I lived in Dayton, Ohio, there was a Maronite Church only a few blocks from me, whereas I had to drive to another suburb to attend a Roman Catholic Church. Someone I knew at my Catholic Parish there told me that the Maronite Church was in Communion with the Vatican, and Roman Catholics could attend their Liturgy and receive Communion there. I never did, since I was unsure if this was true. Is it? (This was in 1990).

The Maronites have never been “out of communion” with Rome, tho they were out of contact for a few centuries in the late first millennium.

In the Second and Third Millennia, they have been in communion with Rome, and if you are properly prepared and a Latin, you can receive in the the Maronite Church.

I also knew a family who were born in the U.S., but raised Russian Orthodox. (Parents & Grandparents were Russian immigrants.) They told me that since the Russian Orthodox Church nearest them (at that time) was about 5 hours away, that it didn’t matter that they only went a couple of times a year, since Russian Orthodox members could take a cracker or piece of bread, say a prayer & therefore have Communion in their homes! This sounds strange to me, since I understand that all the Orthodox Churches are very strict. They wanted me to join them in their “home Communion”, but I declined. They also said they were permitted two divorces, but the third one was permanent (lifelong) as in the Roman Catholic Church.

Those would be priestless old believers. They’re the Russian answer to protestantism.

 

[MorEphrem]

I think it is important to recognise that the views expressed by some on this forum are not necessarily the views of the majority of Maronites, although I acknowledge that some views expressed on here are representative of some Maronites.

I say this with all docility and genuine curiosity: please extrapolate as to which you feel are myopic and which you think are sufficient in scope. Pardon the curiosity, vague statements bother me a bit because I even could reciprocate the vague accusation even if I have no grounds to do so.

 

[PAPA44]

I am a converted Catholic. A Maronite Catholic by the way! I started my journey with my Blessed Lord and the Holy Spirit twelve years ago in a Latin Parrish. I studied with them for almost three years. With no bad feelings for the Latin Mass at all I moved over to a Maronite Parrish on a friends invite . There are many Lebonese brothers and sisters and many other groups as well. I do not think the move was my decision because the more I learn about The Maronite Catholic the more I realize HE led me there. I am now in the process of making a decision about making a move to another part of the state. My Maronite Parrish is figuring heavly in that decision.
Now, the reason it’s so hard to leave is my brothers and sisters. Without a doubt the beauty of the Mass is a big part. I truly love it and will be partakimg of it when I make the move over to the other side at the end of my journey here on this earth if it is my Masters will. I guess the easiest way to describe it is it’s like when I left home years ago to go off to the USMC. I wanted to stay with my family but I also wanted to be out in the world. I haven’t a clue what He has planned for me in the future. I know the time I have been with this Parrish is special and I’ll never forget it. But I also know every time I step with Him it works so well for me.The Maronite Mass, the Love I’ve learned to experience, the brothers and sisters, our priest, decon, even the alter kids. It’s all part of the reason I eagerly await Sunday and why it is so difficult to leave it.
I like to think others have found what I’ve found whether it’s Latin Mass, Maronite, even Protestent if He moves you that way!
Ah! I think I finally figured the answer to your question so you can delete all the above! I go to the Maronite Mass because He wants me to! If HE moves me to another Mass or even another church then I’m up for it because of all you deleted above.
I want you to know I love you for asking and bringing all these wonderful thoughts to my thick skull. I will be praying you reach out and find the Joy I have found if you have not already done so.

 

[Blind_Didymus]

Those would be priestless old believers. They’re the Russian answer to protestantism.

The Old Believers are not so much the Russian answer as the Russian equivalent to Protestantism, more specifically, they are structurally similar to Presbyterians or Congregationalists (depending on which sect) but theologically many are still very similar to the Orthodox on many major points (though not all). In short, they have no bishops (and so no priesthood) because they rejected the reforms of Patriarch Nikon around 400 years ago.

 

[dzheremi]

I would think that the Molokans would make better Russian Protestants than the Old Believers, since Old Believers rejected reforms (not really the case with the Protestants, who were the impetus for subsequent RC reforms), while the Molokans rejected the idea of needing a Church in the first place. The Old Believers seem more like SSPX types, in that they don’t reject the concept of the Church, but instead refuse to reform themselves along the lines that the mainstream ROC has. But of course I’m not ROC, so maybe I’m totally wrong.

 

[Aramis]

I would think that the Molokans would make better Russian Protestants than the Old Believers, since Old Believers rejected reforms (not really the case with the Protestants, who were the impetus for subsequent RC reforms), while the Molokans rejected the idea of needing a Church in the first place. The Old Believers seem more like SSPX types, in that they don’t reject the concept of the Church, but instead refuse to reform themselves along the lines that the mainstream ROC has. But of course I’m not ROC, so maybe I’m totally wrong.

You’re missing a point that’s vital - the Old Believers are not a unified group.

The Old Believers you’re thinking of are equivalent to Anglicans or Lutherans. They have a church, they have clergy, they just reject the hierarchs.

There are some who have returned to limited communion with the other Orthodox, with their priests ordained by the OCA, but otherwise being exactly like the prior group in praxis.

There are priestless old believers who elect elders who function as priests - Pretty much a ringer for the more ritualistic flavors of protestants.

There are priestless old believers who reject ordination, but have a strong sense of church-ness, and keep the ritual, lead by elected members - comparable in many ways to Menonites.

And there are molokans (milk-people) who are comparable to the average non-denominational. Nominally christian, but in practice, not in any way visibly religious, but rather superstitious. They have, however, retained a visible unity.

 

[Rafkqa]

I am a converted Catholic. A Maronite Catholic by the way! I started my journey with my Blessed Lord and the Holy Spirit twelve years ago in a Latin Parrish. I studied with them for almost three years. With no bad feelings for the Latin Mass at all I moved over to a Maronite Parrish on a friends invite . There are many Lebonese brothers and sisters and many other groups as well. I do not think the move was my decision because the more I learn about The Maronite Catholic the more I realize HE led me there. I am now in the process of making a decision about making a move to another part of the state. My Maronite Parrish is figuring heavly in that decision.
Now, the reason it’s so hard to leave is my brothers and sisters. Without a doubt the beauty of the Mass is a big part. I truly love it and will be partakimg of it when I make the move over to the other side at the end of my journey here on this earth if it is my Masters will. I guess the easiest way to describe it is it’s like when I left home years ago to go off to the USMC. I wanted to stay with my family but I also wanted to be out in the world. I haven’t a clue what He has planned for me in the future. I know the time I have been with this Parrish is special and I’ll never forget it. But I also know every time I step with Him it works so well for me.The Maronite Mass, the Love I’ve learned to experience, the brothers and sisters, our priest, decon, even the alter kids. It’s all part of the reason I eagerly await Sunday and why it is so difficult to leave it.
I like to think others have found what I’ve found whether it’s Latin Mass, Maronite, even Protestent if He moves you that way!
Ah! I think I finally figured the answer to your question so you can delete all the above! I go to the Maronite Mass because He wants me to! If HE moves me to another Mass or even another church then I’m up for it because of all you deleted above.
I want you to know I love you for asking and bringing all these wonderful thoughts to my thick skull. I will be praying you reach out and find the Joy I have found if you have not already done so.

I am glad that the Maronite Church has given you so much joy. It is beautiful…