Question for Methodists: FULL Communion with ELCA?

[Harpazo]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

When I heard about the ELCA permitting homosexuals to be ordained (as long as they are in monogamous relationships ) little did I know that at the same conference they came into full-communion with the United Methodists. From the ELCA website:

Full communion is not a merger. But it means that the two churches express a common confession of Christian faith; mutual recognition of Baptism and sharing Holy Communion; join worship and freedom to exchange members; agree to mutual recognition of ordained ministers for service in either church; express a common commitment to evangelism, witness and service; engage in common decision-making on critical matters; and a mutual lifting of criticisms that may exist between the churches.

Rest of the article here.

Why are you all in communion with them? Are you not guilty of their sin by “aiding and abetting?” I’m absolutely horrified by this. As a former Methodist, this is deeply saddening because I still retained some respect for them, but even now that is diminishing. I am even more grateful for Orthodoxy now.

If the Methodists have no qualms with this, I guess this is a perfect match…

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[BrianH]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

When I heard about the ELCA permitting homosexuals to be ordained (as long as they are in monogamous relationships ) little did I know that at the same conference they came into full-communion with the United Methodists. From the ELCA website:
Rest of the article here.

Why are you all in communion with them? Are you not guilty of their sin by “aiding and abetting?” I’m absolutely horrified by this. As a former Methodist, this is deeply saddening because I still retained some respect for them, but even now that is diminishing. I am even more grateful for Orthodoxy now.

If the Methodists have no qualms with this, I guess this is a perfect match…

In Christ,
Andrew

We have, as you probably know, by increasing majorities, rejected any attempts to ordain homosexuals in the UMC or soften our statement calling it incompatible with Christian teaching.
Full communion agreements are not advertised very much. I know several mainline denominations have them with each other.
I am not sure what the fallout will be. When it was approved, the ELCA had not taken this step yet. We would have to wait until General Conference to do anything about it.

 

[Harpazo]

We have, as you probably know, by increasing majorities, rejected any attempts to ordain homosexuals in the UMC or soften our statement calling it incompatible with Christian teaching.
Full communion agreements are not advertised very much. I know several mainline denominations have them with each other.
I am not sure what the fallout will be. When it was approved, the ELCA had not taken this step yet. We would have to wait until General Conference to do anything about it.

Isn’t there another 3 years until General Conference? Why didn’t the UMC cancel the deal after they heard about the vote? I am pretty sure that the ELCA allowed for homosexuals to be ordained several years ago (but they had to be celibate), before the UMC signed the agreement.

It seems like there is a desire for unity among certain Protestants at any cost, even compromising orthodox beliefs. Is it also true that the UMC has been in negotiation with the ECUSA and is set for full communion with them by 2012? Do you think this will cause schism in the UMC?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Peter_J]

Good question. I’ll be interested to hear what others have to say about this.

One thought: like most mainline denominations, the ELCA and the United Methodist Church each contain a variety of conservative, moderate, and liberal members. With that in mind, a full communion agreement between the two could have some positive (as well as negative) results. In particular, I’m picturing conservative members of both denominations saying to each other “You know, we have more in common with each other than we have with the liberal Methodists or liberal Lutherans” and forming some sort of ‘conservative coalition’.

 

[Harpazo]

Good question. I’ll be interested to hear what others have to say about this.

One thought: like most mainline denominations, the ELCA and the United Methodist Church each contain a variety of conservative, moderate, and liberal members. With that in mind, a full communion agreement between the two could have some positive (as well as negative) results. In particular, I’m picturing conservative members of both denominations saying to each other “You know, we have more in common with each other than we have with the liberal Methodists or liberal Lutherans” and forming some sort of ‘conservative coalition’.

Hello Peter,

I could definitely see a coalition forming, but do you think that it would result in a schism? The ELCA does not seem like it would ever be willing to turn back on this.

Could the UMC be passing a similar measure in regards to their clergy? After all, the ELCA’s that they are in communion with do, and the UMC signed an agreement to recognize their clergy, sacraments, etc. The protest from the liberals in the denomination would cry, “If the ELCA are doing it, and we’re in communion with them, why can’t we?”

It is as you say “giant gorilla in the room”, no?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[BrianH]

Isn’t there another 3 years until General Conference? Why didn’t the UMC cancel the deal after they heard about the vote? I am pretty sure that the ELCA allowed for homosexuals to be ordained several years ago (but they had to be celibate), before the UMC signed the agreement.

It seems like there is a desire for unity among certain Protestants at any cost, even compromising orthodox beliefs. Is it also true that the UMC has been in negotiation with the ECUSA and is set for full communion with them by 2012? Do you think this will cause schism in the UMC?

In Christ,
Andrew

The only thing that can cancel the General Conference…is the General Conference…at least as far as I know.
I do not know about anything involving the Episcopalians. News to me.
It will not cause schism. The UMC is now firmly rooted in their existing statements I believe because of the increase in the size and the influence of our conservative African brothers and sisters. As the liberal conferences decline and the conservative conferences increase, if anyone is going to leave, it is going to be the liberals.
What happened to others will not happen to us because any efforts to disinfranchise Africa, which in my opinion the liberals have at least on the net made waves about doing, are met with cries of racism and patronization. Its rather ironic that those people who worked the hardest for civil rights here (liberal Protestants) are so bent out of shape from the increasing African influence.
Full communion I do not believe has much practical implication. In other words, life goes on like normal. We have more than enough local pastors and so forth to fill our pulpits except in rural areas and occasionally I have heard about an ELCA minister being in the pulpit.
However, an open homosexual is not going to go over too well in Burden Kansas population 250 and I seriously doubt the Bishop would place them there.
Like I said, I will wait to see what comes out of General Conference. Change is slow around the UMC but we are not usually reactionary either.

 

[ChadS]

Full communion with the ELCA may not mean much on the ground and in practical matters at the local churches. However, the hierarchy and governing bodies of the UMC has bound itself to the ELCA in this matter whether they like it or not. Issues will be bound to arise if not now they will in the near future.

Somehow I doubt the General Conference will do anything about this in 3 years. From the reports I remember hearing about the local conference’s Annual Conference it sounds like it’s a giant business meeting that takes place over three days. I suspect many church members are even aware this occurred.

I was born and raised in the UMC and my family still worships there (as a matter of fact a cousin is a recently ordained minister). I retain a deep fondness for the Wesley’s and I love many of the hymns we sang at our church (on a side note I think many Catholics that yearn for more traditional hymns would love to have some of the hymns we sang as opposed to some of the tripe used in parishes now).

ChadS

 

[Harpazo]

Full communion with the ELCA may not mean much on the ground and in practical matters at the local churches. However, the hierarchy and governing bodies of the UMC has bound itself to the ELCA in this matter whether they like it or not. Issues will be bound to arise if not now they will in the near future.

Somehow I doubt the General Conference will do anything about this in 3 years. From the reports I remember hearing about the local conference’s Annual Conference it sounds like it’s a giant business meeting that takes place over three days. I suspect many church members are even aware this occurred.

I was born and raised in the UMC and my family still worships there (as a matter of fact a cousin is a recently ordained minister). I retain a deep fondness for the Wesley’s and I love many of the hymns we sang at our church (on a side note I think many Catholics that yearn for more traditional hymns would love to have some of the hymns we sang as opposed to some of the tripe used in parishes now).

ChadS

Thank you for your contribution to this Chad. Have you talked with your cousin since this fiasco happened? Would he have any thoughts to share with us?

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[ChadS]

Thank you for your contribution to this Chad. Have you talked with your cousin since this fiasco happened? Would he have any thoughts to share with us?

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

In Christ,
Andrew

Actually I haven’t spoken with my cousin about this. The cousin that is a minister is actually a woman. She had I guess what would be called a late vocation to the ministry.

Just to add what I had said earlier about the General Conference not doing anything I remember a few years ago (probably around 15 years) a minister was tried for heresy after he married a homosexual couple in his church. If I remember correctly he was censured but not convicted or defrocked. The reason this outcome occurred is because he didn’t actually violate any UMC regulations. I’ve also heard tales of other UMC churches having commitment ceremonies – also in vague contravention to church law but nothing was done. As far as I know a non-practicing homosexual may be ordained in the UMC, so how far off is the ELCA position for the UMC?

ChadS

 

[BrianH]

We would ordain peope people with homosexual orientation but not ones who act on the inclination. Ultimately people either will or will not. Everyone, United Methodist ministers and Catholic priests have orientation, its whether or not they do it.

 

[cthulhubryan]

I was born and raised in the UMC and my family still worships there (as a matter of fact a cousin is a recently ordained minister). I retain a deep fondness for the Wesley’s and I love many of the hymns we sang at our church (on a side note I think many Catholics that yearn for more traditional hymns would love to have some of the hymns we sang as opposed to some of the tripe used in parishes now).

ChadS

I have to give you a hearty AMEN! on that. The music is the weakest link in a Catholic Church. I know that the Eucharist is the main thing, but why bad music?

As to the whole “full communion” thing. These rumors come up every 4 years as there is usually a minority that want to bring “abominations”(Lev 18:22) into the clergy. But they are way in the minority. And after the voting methods changed in 2000 the minority has become smaller.

 

[ChadS]

I have to give you a hearty AMEN! on that. The music is the weakest link in a Catholic Church. I know that the Eucharist is the main thing, but why bad music?

As to the whole “full communion” thing. These rumors come up every 4 years as there is usually a minority that want to bring “abominations”(Lev 18:22) into the clergy. But they are way in the minority. And after the voting methods changed in 2000 the minority has become smaller.

From what I’ve been able to find out it seems the UMC voted for full communion before the ELCA did. The ELCA did so at their latest meeting where they also agreed to ordain practicing homosexuals. This seems to be far more than a mere “rumor.”

ChadS

 

[Peter_J]

These rumors come up every 4 years as there is usually a minority that want to bring “abominations”(Lev 18:22) into the clergy.

This ^^ statement could be taken different ways; perhaps you should add a clarifying note that Lev 18:22 says that the act, not the person guilty of the act, is an “abomination”.

 

[Harpazo]

From what I’ve been able to find out it seems the UMC voted for full communion before the ELCA did. The ELCA did so at their latest meeting where they also agreed to ordain practicing homosexuals. This seems to be far more than a mere “rumor.”

ChadS

Well, be that as it may, couldn’t the UMC have released a statement saying that they broke the communion agreement, because their is not complete agreement in doctrine? It also begs the question my the UMC is still pursuing communion with the ECUSA, which allowed for the same novelty that the ELCA did, but several years ago.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[BrianH]

Thats not how things work. Like I said, the General Conference can only change the General Conference as far as I know on such matters.

 

[Harpazo]

Thats not how things work. Like I said, the General Conference can only change the General Conference as far as I know on such matters.

I understand that the decision was made earlier from the Methodist side of things, but that still doesn’t make much sense to me as to why the UMC has to wait 3 years to say anything about it and be in communion with the ELCA, recognizing their clergy as valid, basically giving a thumbs up to homosexuality. It also doesn’t make sense why the UMC is still set to pursue communion with the ECUSA by 2012.

I’d also be curious to hear the reactions from our resident Methodist clergy at CAF.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[BrianH]

We wait three years because that is the way our polity operates.

 

[ChadS]

I understand that the decision was made earlier from the Methodist side of things, but that still doesn’t make much sense to me as to why the UMC has to wait 3 years to say anything about it and be in communion with the ELCA, recognizing their clergy as valid, basically giving a thumbs up to homosexuality. It also doesn’t make sense why the UMC is still set to pursue communion with the ECUSA by 2012.

I’d also be curious to hear the reactions from our resident Methodist clergy at CAF.

In Christ,
Andrew

The UMC has bishops and district superintendents. Despite their limited authority they do indeed have some authority and if they so desired they could speak out on these issues, they can do without having to wait for the General Conference. To be honest though I don’t remember much about any of our bishops that we had. It was pretty much limited to a 200 word column that came out once a month in our church bulletin. We had far more contact with our DS and that was mainly business and administrative. I would be very surprised if any UMC bishops spoke out about this.

ChadS

 

[ChadS]

We wait three years because that is the way our polity operates.

Even while I belonged to the UMC I never understood that thinking. What could be nipped in the bud now can be a crisis in three years. What’s a crisis now could become a disaster in three years. This goes for anything, not just the issue at hand. I think the UMC wants to avoid the hierarchial church model so much that it has willingly hobbled itself and perhaps given too much leeway to local governance.

ChadS

 

[BrianH]

Even while I belonged to the UMC I never understood that thinking. What could be nipped in the bud now can be a crisis in three years. What’s a crisis now could become a disaster in three years. This goes for anything, not just the issue at hand. I think the UMC wants to avoid the hierarchial church model so much that it has willingly hobbled itself and perhaps given too much leeway to local governance.

ChadS

In general, my impression is that people are pleased with how it operates. I do not think we are hobbled at all
My opinion of course