Question For Mormons

[Vasian]

i was talking to a couple of young men from the local LDS church the other day.
They were telling me about some plates that have early writings on them, and that these plates were found with clear stones (crystals) that were required to use as reading glasses in order to read the plates(?)

Are these items in a museum in Salt Lake? These boys at my door were un sure where they are kept.

 

[ParkerD]

i was talking to a couple of young men from the local LDS church the other day.
They were telling me about some plates that have early writings on them, and that these plates were found with clear stones (crystals) that were required to use as reading glasses in order to read the plates(?)

Are these items in a museum in Salt Lake? These boys at my door were un sure where they are kept.

Vasian,
The LDS church is not a relics-based religion, as illustrated by the fact that the angel Moroni who was placed in charge of the sacred “golden plates” and the clear stones took them away after Joseph Smith had fulfilled the purpose of translating the record about a group of people who came to ancient America from Jerusalem, and of their teachings and belief in Christ. The angel is still “in charge” of those items, but the sacred writings can now be read in the Book of Mormon.

 

[Vasian]

Vasian,
The LDS church is not a relics-based religion, as illustrated by the fact that the angel Moroni who was placed in charge of the sacred “golden plates” and the clear stones took them away after Joseph Smith had fulfilled the purpose of translating the record about a group of people who came to ancient America from Jerusalem, and of their teachings and belief in Christ. The angel is still “in charge” of those items, but the sacred writings can now be read in the Book of Mormon.

Thank you.
But I do I wonder why supernatural instruments (glasses?) were needed in the translation process at all?

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Thank you.
But I do I wonder why supernatural instruments (glasses?) were needed in the translation process at all?

Surely God can accomplish anything apart from created instruments. But Catholics believe that God is pleased to use physical objects to effect spiritual graces. Why is water necessary for baptism? We have no answer, except that God likes matter…very ordinary matter at that. I reject Mormonism, but there is no necessary difficulty with the use of a physical object to reveal supernatural truth. The use of Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament would seem to be parallels for how Joseph Smith is said to have translated the plates.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you.
But I do I wonder why supernatural instruments (glasses?) were needed in the translation process at all?

That is just one of the stories for how the Mormon Book of Mormon was translated. It is the one that is taught to Mormons, officially. It is the one Mormon missionaries will tell people about. However, there are also first-hand accounts of Smith putting his head into his hat and and telling a scribe what to write. So, the question then becomes, why were these plates required at all, let alone special glasses?

 

[ParkerD]

That is just one of the stories for how the Mormon Book of Mormon was translated. It is the one that is taught to Mormons, officially. It is the one Mormon missionaries will tell people about. However, there are also first-hand accounts of Smith putting his head into his hat and and telling a scribe what to write. So, the question then becomes, why were these plates required at all, let alone special glasses?

RebeccaJ and others who may have a similar question,

God tutors those who walk by faith, and as they are tutored they can gain greater faith and greater clarity in understanding how the principle of faith as a principle of action and receiving knowledge works. So it was for Joseph Smith.

The seer stone was placed inside of a hat to shield extraneous light sources from what needed to be seen as the words appearing on the seer stone (such as on a mini-LCD screen but with the need for extraneous light to be blocked out since the words were appearing as though the letters were illuminated on the surface or inside of the seer stone.) (Again, think of a mini-LCD screen.)

The prophet-writers of the teachings and experiences described in the Book of Mormon, needed to actually do the work of inscribing the plates with their writings, to preserve their thoughts and teachings in our physical world. The plates were physically present in each place where Joseph did the “translating”, which was more a process of “reading” the thoughts of those ancient writers using a divinely guided and faith-based process than it was “translating” every pictorial or hieroglyphic symbol into its English language representation. During the early part of the “translation” process, Joseph Smith used the “spectacles” and read the plates leaf by leaf, but later he was able to use the seer stone because he had greater faith and greater understanding of how the principle of faith worked for bringing these ancient sources of knowledge into the modern world in a language and usage of English that was itself translatable into other languages.

 

[TheosisM]

The prophet-writers of the teachings and experiences described in the Book of Mormon, needed to actually do the work of inscribing the plates with their writings, to preserve their thoughts and teachings in our physical world. The plates were physically present in each place where Joseph did the “translating”, which was more a process of “reading” the thoughts of those ancient writers using a divinely guided and faith-based process than it was “translating” every pictorial or hieroglyphic symbol into its English language representation.

So he was reading the thoughts of the writers? This is the first time I’ve heard of this interpretation of the “translation” process. So when he used the plates in the translation process (with the interpreters), was he actually translating the characters? Is there an official record or understanding of how the translation process of the golden plates occurred?

Curiously, we never see art of Joseph Smith with his face in a hat. Instead, he is portrayed as studying the golden plates. random thought

 

[ParkerD]

So he was reading the thoughts of the writers? This is the first time I’ve heard of this interpretation of the “translation” process. So when he used the plates in the translation process (with the interpreters), was he actually translating the characters? Is there an official record or understanding of how the translation process of the golden plates occurred?

Curiously, we never see art of Joseph Smith with his face in a hat. Instead, he is portrayed as studying the golden plates. random thought

TheosisM,
Here is a link to an article by Elder Neal A Maxwell found on lds.org from the Ensign, January 1997:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=e491dbdcc370c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Here is a quote from that article:

If by means of these divine instrumentalities the Prophet was seeing ancient words rendered in English and then dictating, he was not necessarily and constantly scrutinizing the characters on the plates—the usual translation process of going back and forth between pondering an ancient text and providing a modern rendering.

The revelatory process apparently did not require the Prophet to become expert in the ancient language. The constancy of revelation was more crucial than the constant presence of opened plates, which, by instruction, were to be kept from the view of unauthorized eyes anyway.

While the use of divine instrumentalities might also account for the rapid rate of translation, the Prophet sometimes may have used a less mechanical procedure. We simply do not know the details.

We do know that this faith-filled process was not easy, however. This fact was clearly demonstrated in Oliver Cowdery’s own attempt at translation. Oliver failed because he “did not continue as [he] commenced,” and because, lacking faith and works, he “took no thought save it was to ask” (D&C 9:5, 7). He was not properly prepared to do it. Even so, we owe so much to Oliver Cowdery for his special service as a scribe.

Whatever the details of the process, it required Joseph’s intense, personal efforts along with the aid of the revelatory instruments. The process may have varied as Joseph’s capabilities grew, involving the Urim and Thummim but perhaps with less reliance upon such instrumentalities in the Prophet’s later work of translation. Elder Orson Pratt of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said Joseph Smith told him that he used the Urim and Thummim when he was inexperienced at translation but that later he did not need it, which was the case in Joseph’s translation of many verses of the Bible (see Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, 11 Aug. 1874, 498–99).

Here linked is another very thorough article found on lds.org, by Richard Lloyd Anderson:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=5a921f26d596b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

I found those by using the search tool available on that website on the right hand side of the opening page.

Have a good day, and best wishes for a wonderful Christmas as no doubt you will have.

 

[zerinus]

i was talking to a couple of young men from the local LDS church the other day.

They are good people to be talking to!

They were telling me about some plates that have early writings on them, …

They were referring to the manuscript from which the Book of Mormon was translated. The Book of Mormon is a sacred record of the ancient inhabitants of the American continent, which was written in an unknown tongue on gold plates, and buried in the earth to be reserved for future generations.

… and that these plates were found with clear stones (crystals) that were required to use as reading glasses in order to read the plates(?)

This is a mixture of truth and error. There were sacred instruments buried with the plates, known as the Urim and Thummim, intended to be used to aid in the translation of the plates; but we don’t know for sure what they were or what they looked like, and we also don’t know exactly how they were used in to receive revelation. They were basically instruments for receiving revelation. But nobody knows for sure what they looked like or who they were used for that purpose. All comments to that effect are speculation.

Are these items in a museum in Salt Lake? These boys at my door were un sure where they are kept.

Joseph Smith used several instruments for receiving revelation. The Urim and Thummim were sacred instruments which, along with the original plates of the Book of Mormon, he was not permitted to show to anyone—except special witness to whom they were shown. They are not available for public viewing, and no one knows of their whereabouts. If they are anywhere on earth at all, the Prophet and President of the Church is the only one who would know and would be authorized to use them.

Joseph Smith used another instrument for receiving revelation known as the “seer stone” which was not as sacred as the first, and were seen by others. After his death it passed on to his descendants, and is now preserved in the vaults of the First Presidency of the Church. It is not available for public viewing; but it has been seen by several people by special authorization from the Frist Presidency. I had a religion teacher at BYU many years ago who said he had seen it, and gave us a description of what it looked like.

Thank you.
But I do I wonder why supernatural instruments (glasses?) were needed in the translation process at all?

First of all they were not “glasses”. We don’t know what they looked like or how they were used. Secondly, miraculous means for the translation was required because the manuscript was written in an unknown tongue which no one knew how to read or translate. Even if they could be read, Joseph Smith would not have been educated enough to have read them. He was a young boy with less formal education than a modern college student does. For these reasons the process of the translation would have to be a miraculous one. Exactly why that particular method was used and not another is up to the Lord. If a miracle needs to be performed, it is up to the Lord to decided how to provide that miracle, not us.

Surely God can accomplish anything apart from created instruments. But Catholics believe that God is pleased to use physical objects to effect spiritual graces. Why is water necessary for baptism? We have no answer, except that God likes matter…very ordinary matter at that. I reject Mormonism, but there is no necessary difficulty with the use of a physical object to reveal supernatural truth. The use of Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament would seem to be parallels for how Joseph Smith is said to have translated the plates.

Thank you! I agree with everything you have said—except for the “rejecting Mormonism” bit!

 

[TheosisM]

TheosisM,
Here is a link to an article by Elder Neal A Maxwell found on lds.org from the Ensign, January 1997:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=e491dbdcc370c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Here is a quote from that article:

Here linked is another very thorough article found on lds.org, by Richard Lloyd Anderson:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=5a921f26d596b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

I found those by using the search tool available on that website on the right hand side of the opening page.

Have a good day, and best wishes for a wonderful Christmas as no doubt you will have.

Thanks for those articles. I think my thought on this “reading the thoughts of the writers” remains, as those articles don’t really address that, though I’m not sure that was your intention in posting them. I am generally familiar with what those articles say, but thanks again. Is the “reading the thoughts of the writers” instead of each individual character concept widespread, or is it your speculation (since the exact translation process isn’t known)? Also, do you know why the LDS church typically portrays JS in pictures as studying the plates, and not looking into a hat, if both were used?

Merry Christmas to you as well.

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ and others who may have a similar question,

God tutors those who walk by faith, and as they are tutored they can gain greater faith and greater clarity in understanding how the principle of faith as a principle of action and receiving knowledge works. So it was for Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith just made it up as he went along.

The seer stone was placed inside of a hat to shield extraneous light sources

The seer stone Smith found while digging a well. Which yes, this is the stone he had in his hat, NOT, the Urim and Thummim he claimed to get from an angel.

This seer stone is based on American folk magic beliefs. God works through us and we know miracles. Not the magic tricks of con man.

from what needed to be seen as the words appearing on the seer stone (such as on a mini-LCD screen but with the need for extraneous light to be blocked out since the words were appearing as though the letters were illuminated on the surface or inside of the seer stone.) (Again, think of a mini-LCD screen.)

Would you like to give us the sources for this?

PS: I can see my mini LCD screen in the light just fine. Thanks. Maybe God needed better technology?

The prophet-writers of the teachings and experiences described in the Book of Mormon, needed to actually do the work of inscribing the plates with their writings, to preserve their thoughts and teachings in our physical world. The plates were physically present in each place where Joseph did the “translating”, which was more a process of “reading” the thoughts of those ancient writers using a divinely guided and faith-based process than it was “translating” every pictorial or hieroglyphic symbol into its English language representation. During the early part of the “translation” process, Joseph Smith used the “spectacles” and read the plates leaf by leaf, but later he was able to use the seer stone because he had greater faith and greater understanding of how the principle of faith worked for bringing these ancient sources of knowledge into the modern world in a language and usage of English that was itself translatable into other languages.

So, now Smith was not translating but having some sort of seance/telepathic encounter with the dead?

 

[romesweethome]

The devil used tricks and seemingly miraculous ways of trying to trick Moses and others that the miracles of God could be done by anyone.
I do not see this situation as being any different, except that some people followed Smith as a result and gave them a new and very different gospel. In fact, an angel of light brought the new and different gospel, something that was forbidden by jesus Himself.

just my thoughts.

oh, and that smith was about 1800 years too late.

peace, rsh

 

[Vasian]

Vasian,
The LDS church is not a relics-based religion…

I respectfuly disagree.
That is exactly what it is (a relics-based religion) even if they are not physically available for view today.
I state this because your entire book, which is at the very foundation of your religion is based on the use of two physical items that you claim were necessary in order to translate this claimed obscure, and unique language.
The plates and the “seer” stones.

 

[why_me]

Joseph Smith just made it up as he went along.

Rather difficult to have a head in a hat and make it up as one goes along. Give it a try and see how you do. And remember to have someone there to act as scribe. I am sure that you will write one heck of a book. And we need to remember that emma his wife never saw a manucript and stated that if Joseph wrote that book she would have known.

 

[zerinus]

I respectfuly disagree.
That is exactly what it is (a relics-based religion) even if they are not physically available for view today.
I state this because your entire book, which is at the very foundation of your religion is based on the use of two physical items that you claim were necessary in order to translate this claimed obscure, and unique language.
The plates and the “seer” stones.

Then you have a very incorrect understanding of what is a “relics based religion”. The Catholic Church is a good example of a “relics based religion”. Perhaps “relics based” is an inaccurate term, because it implies that the whole religion is based on “relics,” which is not true. But the Catholic Church is a religion in which the veneration of relics is allowed, and considered a legitimate part of Christian worship. Relics such as the bodies or (body parts) of dead Saints (and their other possessions owned or worn by them) are considered sacred and venerated. Here is a quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia that explains this in Catholic theology:

The teaching of the Catholic Church with regard to the veneration of relics is summed up in a decree of the Council of Trent (Sess. XXV), which enjoins on bishops and other pastors to instruct their flocks that “the holy bodies of holy martyrs and of others now living with Christ—which bodies were the living members of Christ and ‘the temple of the Holy Ghost’ (1 Corinthians 6:19) and which are by Him to be raised to eternal life and to be glorified are to be venerated by the faithful, for through these [bodies] many benefits are bestowed by God on men, so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of the saints, or that these and other sacred monuments are uselessly honoured by the faithful, and that the places dedicated to the memories of the saints are in vain visited with the view of obtaining their aid, are wholly to be condemned, as the Church has already long since condemned, and also now condemns them.”

That correctly describes a “relics based religion,” if you wanted to use that term. It means a religion in which relics of this kind are venerated. Now the history of the Catholic Church is litered with such relics—many of which have been fakes! The LDS Church, on the other hand, is totally denuded, theologically or historically, of any such “relics”. The plates of the Book of Mormon or the “seer stone” cannot in any shape or form be compared to such relics. The plates were taken by an angel to heaven as soon as the translation was completed; and even if they existed on earth, they would have not been “venerated”. They were not venerated even when Joseph Smith had them! The same is true of the Urim or Thummim or the seer stone. The seer stone exists, but it is not venerated. It is considered a very important historical item belonging to the Church, so it is kept under lock and key—the same as the other historical items the Church has, such as the first edition of the Book of Mormon, the printer’s manuscript, the papyrus manuscript of the Book of Abraham, or the watch that John Taylor was wearing when he was shot in Carthage jail. None of these items are “venerated;” but they are preserved because they important items belonging to the history of the Church.

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks for those articles. I think my thought on this “reading the thoughts of the writers” remains, as those articles don’t really address that, though I’m not sure that was your intention in posting them. I am generally familiar with what those articles say, but thanks again. Is the “reading the thoughts of the writers” instead of each individual character concept widespread, or is it your speculation (since the exact translation process isn’t known)? Also, do you know why the LDS church typically portrays JS in pictures as studying the plates, and not looking into a hat, if both were used?

Merry Christmas to you as well.

TheosisM,
Thanks for being charitable in your response here. You are a very unique person on this forum, I must say, and I have appreciated that more than you know. I hope you may provide leadership and example to others during the course of your life, that they may follow your lead–sincerely.

When I wrote about “reading” thoughts it must be understood that the LDS believe that all our thoughts as well as our words are recorded in some way that they will be remembered and we will have an accounting before God for them. That being so, and knowing that the Holy Spirit must be manifestly involved in an inspired translation process and that the Holy Spirit communicates truth, then the “translator” would indeed have ideas come into his mind that would be as though he was “reading” the thoughts of the person whose words he was bringing into his own language. I suggest you read Ether 12 and Doctrine and Covenants 8 and 9 to understand more about that process. Ether 12 is where Moroni gives a glimpse of his feelings as he looked at the ancient record of the Jaredites recorded on 24 plates. Particularly read verses 22-40.

As to the other comments, should I be surprised? Of course not–nor am I surprised at all by them nor their tone. It goes with the territory.

Peace to all.

 

[Vasian]

Then you have a very incorrect understanding of what is a “relics based religion”. The Catholic Church is a good example of a “relics based religion”. Perhaps “relics based” is an inaccurate term, because it implies that the whole religion is based on “relics,” which is not true. But the Catholic Church is a religion in which the veneration of relics is allowed, and considered a legitimate part of Christian worship. Relics such as the bodies or (body parts) of dead Saints (and their other possessions owned or worn by them) are considered sacred and venerated. Here is a quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia that explains this in Catholic theology:

The teaching of the Catholic Church with regard to the veneration of relics is summed up in a decree of the Council of Trent (Sess. XXV), which enjoins on bishops and other pastors to instruct their flocks that “the holy bodies of holy martyrs and of others now living with Christ—which bodies were the living members of Christ and ‘the temple of the Holy Ghost’ (1 Corinthians 6:19) and which are by Him to be raised to eternal life and to be glorified are to be venerated by the faithful, for through these [bodies] many benefits are bestowed by God on men, so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of the saints, or that these and other sacred monuments are uselessly honoured by the faithful, and that the places dedicated to the memories of the saints are in vain visited with the view of obtaining their aid, are wholly to be condemned, as the Church has already long since condemned, and also now condemns them.”

That correctly describes a “relics based religion,” if you wanted to use that term. It means a religion in which relics of this kind are venerated. Now the history of the Catholic Church is litered with such relics—many of which have been fakes! The LDS Church, on the other hand, is totally denuded, theologically or historically, of any such “relics”. The plates of the Book of Mormon or the “seer stone” cannot in any shape or form be compared to such relics. The plates were taken by an angel to heaven as soon as the translation was completed; and even if they existed on earth, they would have not been “venerated”. They were not venerated even when Joseph Smith had them! The same is true of the Urim or Thummim or the seer stone. The seer stone exists, but it is not venerated. It is considered a very important historical item belonging to the Church, so it is kept under lock and key—the same as the other historical items the Church has, such as the first edition of the Book of Mormon, the printer’s manuscript, the papyrus manuscript of the Book of Abraham, or the watch that John Taylor was wearing when he was shot in Carthage jail. None of these items are “venerated;” but they are preserved because they important items belonging to the history of the Church.

Howdy, zerinus

Have you read that quote that you posted in green print?

 

[zerinus]

Howdy, zerinus

Have you read that quote that you posted in green print?

Yes, I have, what about it?

 

[KathleenGee]

I posted this on another…You can read things, but if you are on the outside, you don’t understand the perspective and context of the writings…

There are remains now exhumed from the Church of St Peter, under the altar…that have no feet…and it was said St. Peter was buried without feet…and other remains attributed to St. Paul, also buried at Rome…and allegedly found are being studied.

In Nevers, France is the incorruptible corpus of St. Bernadette whose remains are venerated. You can do a search on the internet and see the beauty of her and her soul…it is said she never lost her baptismal innocence.

If I had contact with the remains of Ss. Peter and Paul, I would venerate them as I would if they were alive in front of me…And seeing the great importance the Mormons have towards the original Apostles and St. Paul, I would expect the same.

 

[zerinus]

I posted this on another…You can read things, but if you are on the outside, you don’t understand the perspective and context of the writings…

There are remains now exhumed from the Church of St Peter, under the altar…that have no feet…and it was said St. Peter was buried without feet…and other remains attributed to St. Paul, also buried at Rome…and allegedly found are being studied.

In Nevers, France is the incorruptible corpus of St. Bernadette whose remains are venerated. You can do a search on the internet and see the beauty of her and her soul…it is said she never lost her baptismal innocence.

If I had contact with the remains of Ss. Peter and Paul, I would venerate them as I would if they were alive in front of me…And seeing the great importance the Mormons have towards the original Apostles and St. Paul, I would expect the same.

We certainly do attach great importance to the original Apostles or St Paul; but we would not venerate their relics if such existed or were found. We do not believe any spiritual benefit can be derived from the dead bodies or “relics” of dead saints, Apostles, or prophets.