Question For Mormons

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romesweethome said:
The devil used tricks and seemingly miraculous ways of trying to trick Moses and others that the miracles of God could be done by anyone.
I do not see this situation as being any different, except that some people followed Smith as a result and gave them a new and very different gospel. In fact, an angel of light brought the new and different gospel, something that was forbidden by jesus Himself.

just my thoughts.

oh, and that smith was about 1800 years too late.

peace, rsh
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Yep,you Nailed it !!!👍
 
Again, I see a great difference of understanding the nature of Jesus Christ by the Mormons in how they see Him not establishing His church but instead allowing such a huge time gap…and happening in our country…so far from the Holy Land…albeit with the Diaspora.

I do tend to see the Mormons’ understanding of our faith as subjective…about the relics, understand…but they are used and symbolize the presence of the saint…there to help today…we are not saints but approximate heaven…as it watches us with a thousand eyes…There are practices that are understandably contradicting to others…and we live in a universal church that draws on cultures and saints of many regions of the world…many of them unknown to us unless we were to live there.

The communion of saints for us is real and tangible. I was at a prayer service for a young woman dying of cancer. A relic from Blessed Faustina was placed on her and she immediately had a turn around…she did not live, but Blessed Faustina helped in her prayer presence through the use of the relic to give the mother and family time to prepare for her untimely death. In other cases of relics there have been healings and/or deliverance or protection from evil or natural calamities…

We are open to the diversity of gifts…but we believe that all grace comes from God alone through His Son and in His will…outwardly there is this appearance, but inwardly, we know that our communion of saints are working on our behalf through the will and grace of God. Without Him, nothing happens…so we are a gathering of people, not individuals.
 
ParkerD said:
TheosisM,
Thanks for being charitable in your response here. You are a very unique person on this forum, I must say, and I have appreciated that more than you know. I hope you may provide leadership and example to others during the course of your life, that they may follow your lead–sincerely.

When I wrote about “reading” thoughts it must be understood that the LDS believe that all our thoughts as well as our words are recorded in some way that they will be remembered and we will have an accounting before God for them. That being so, and knowing that the Holy Spirit must be manifestly involved in an inspired translation process and that the Holy Spirit communicates truth, then the “translator” would indeed have ideas come into his mind that would be as though he was “reading” the thoughts of the person whose words he was bringing into his own language. I suggest you read Ether 12 and Doctrine and Covenants 8 and 9 to understand more about that process. Ether 12 is where Moroni gives a glimpse of his feelings as he looked at the ancient record of the Jaredites recorded on 24 plates. Particularly read verses 22-40.

As to the other comments, should I be surprised? Of course not–nor am I surprised at all by them nor their tone. It goes with the territory.

Peace to all.
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Parker, every time there is some kind of problem with the LDS teachings you throw around the “Holy Spirit” and think that it makes it all right.
 
TheosisM said:
So he was reading the thoughts of the writers? This is the first time I’ve heard of this interpretation of the “translation” process. So when he used the plates in the translation process (with the interpreters), was he actually translating the characters? Is there an official record or understanding of how the translation process of the golden plates occurred?

Curiously, we never see art of Joseph Smith with his face in a hat. Instead, he is portrayed as studying the golden plates. random thought
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http://www.imagesoftherestoration.org/blog/wp-content/nggallery/Mormon Art/jstranslatingbom.jpg
 
There are relics of a sort in Mormonism. For instance the Scroll of Abraham is still available today and proves conclusively that Joseph Smith was a fake and didn’t in any way know what he was talking about.

It was an Egyptian burial scroll used to guide the departed to the underworld. It was never written by nor had anything to do with Abraham, nor, now that it is easily read, did it say anything Joseph Smith claimed it did.

None of his transaltions were anything like translating as we understand it. It would appear he just made it up. Not sure why he bothered with the story of gold plates and such because they really had nothing to do with the final product.
 
ParkerD said:
TheosisM,
Thanks for being charitable in your response here. You are a very unique person on this forum, I must say, and I have appreciated that more than you know. I hope you may provide leadership and example to others during the course of your life, that they may follow your lead–sincerely.

When I wrote about “reading” thoughts it must be understood that the LDS believe that all our thoughts as well as our words are recorded in some way that they will be remembered and we will have an accounting before God for them. That being so, and knowing that the Holy Spirit must be manifestly involved in an inspired translation process and that the Holy Spirit communicates truth, then the “translator” would indeed have ideas come into his mind that would be as though he was “reading” the thoughts of the person whose words he was bringing into his own language. I suggest you read Ether 12 and Doctrine and Covenants 8 and 9 to understand more about that process. Ether 12 is where Moroni gives a glimpse of his feelings as he looked at the ancient record of the Jaredites recorded on 24 plates. Particularly read verses 22-40.

As to the other comments, should I be surprised? Of course not–nor am I surprised at all by them nor their tone. It goes with the territory.

Peace to all.
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Thanks for explaining. I think that because the translation process isn’t known in detail, there is some room to speculate on how it happened.

And thank you for the personal comments :).
 
ParkerD said:
As to the other comments, should I be surprised? Of course not–nor am I surprised at all by them nor their tone. It goes with the territory.

Peace to all.
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Should I be surprised you don’t answer? What are your sources for this idea of yours, historical or LDS teaching? Is there a witness, or Smith himself, who claimed to be reading the minds of dead people? Seriously, I’d like to know your source for this.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Should I be surprised you don’t answer? What are your sources for this idea of yours, historical or LDS teaching? Is there a witness, or Smith himself, who claimed to be reading the minds of dead people? Seriously, I’d like to know your source for this.
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I already referenced two articles from lds.org, D & C 8 and 9 and Ether 12. You could add to that list Isaiah 29:4, but none of it will make much sense to someone for whom they do not wish it to make any sense.

As to the “minds of dead people”, I’m not sure if you mean you don’t think a spirit has a thinking process still with them, or the memory of their life as a mortal. I don’t think of spirits of the departed as “dead people” but as “live people” who are very much aware of us more than we are aware of them.
 
ParkerD said:
I already referenced two articles from lds.org, D & C 8 and 9 and Ether 12. You could add to that list Isaiah 29:4, but none of it will make much sense to someone for whom they do not wish it to make any sense.
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Doesn’t answer what I asked. You know, something that says specifically Smith believed he was putting his head in a hat to read minds?
As to the “minds of dead people”, I’m not sure if you mean you don’t think a spirit has a thinking process still with them, or the memory of their life as a mortal. I don’t think of spirits of the departed as “dead people” but as “live people” who are very much aware of us more than we are aware of them.
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So, you believe Smith, and/or yourself and other Mormons, can read the minds of “live people”?
 
TheosisM said:
So he was reading the thoughts of the writers? This is the first time I’ve heard of this interpretation of the “translation” process. So when he used the plates in the translation process (with the interpreters), was he actually translating the characters? Is there an official record or understanding of how the translation process of the golden plates occurred?
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No it is not. The real official position is that we don’t know the precise detail of the translation process—except that it was a miraculous process, done with the aid of the Urim and Thummim, as declared by Joseph Smith himself. Joseph Smith stated that it was not the will of the Lord that the process of how the Book of Mormon was translated should be revealed. So any opinion expressed in that regard is speculation.
Curiously, we never see art of Joseph Smith with his face in a hat. Instead, he is portrayed as studying the golden plates. random thought
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There is no evidence that “burying his head in a hat” was the principle way of translating the Book of Mormon throughout the period that he worked on the translation. That was something that somebody saw during a brief glimpse of how he did the translation. When Joseph Smith started the translation, he used the Urim and Thummim, which was provided with the plates, and is a very sacred instrument. Later on he briefly experimented with the seer stone, which is when he used a hat to exclude the exterior light to be able to see what was shown in the stones. Later on as his spirituallity increased, and he gained experience in working with the Spirit of the Lord, and his spiritual powers developed and increased, he was able to dispense with any physical instruments altogether, and receive revelation directly into his mind by the Spirit. That is how he received all his later revelations, as well as the inspired translation of the Bible. It is the enemies of the Church who like to blow his “burying his head in a hat” out of all proportion in order to ridicule and disparage the Church. There is no evidence that that is the principle way in which he translated the plates.
 
zerinus said:
No it is not. The real official position is that we don’t know the precise detail of the translation process—except that it was a miraculous process, done with the aid of the Urim and Thummim, as declared by Joseph Smith himself. Joseph Smith stated that it was not the will of the Lord that the process of how the Book of Mormon was translated should be revealed. So any opinion expressed in that regard is speculation.

There is no evidence that “burying his head in a hat” was the principle way of translating the Book of Mormon throughout the period that he worked on the translation. That was something that somebody saw during a brief glimpse of how he did the translation. When Joseph Smith started the translation, he used the Urim and Thummim, which was provided with the plates, and is a very sacred instrument. Later on he briefly experimented with the seer stone, which is when he used a hat to exclude the exterior light to be able to see what was shown in the stones. Later on as his spirituallity increased, and he gained experience in working with the Spirit of the Lord, and his spiritual powers developed and increased, he was able to dispense with any physical instruments altogether, and receive revelation directly into his mind by the Spirit. That is how he received all his later revelations, as well as the inspired translation of the Bible. It is the enemies of the Church who like to blow his “burying his head in a hat” out of all proportion in order to ridicule and disparage the Church. There is no evidence that that is the principle way in which he translated the plates.
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WOW!!!😃
 
The Catholic understanding of Scripture rests upon continuity of message and imagery in sacred Scriptures. Our altars are made of stone just as those were in the Old Testament…the use of water, candlelight/fire…the gathering and memorial…the symbols we have in our Churches, the baptismal font…all these reflect Scriptures.

Our understanding of Scripture must take in the entire content of the intent and message of the author, it must connect and continue a recognizable and identifying mode that we can connect to, the same fruits and works of the Holy Spirit then and today.

Revelation ended with Jesus Christ. There is nothing else.

Jesus did not pick one man. He picked 12. One was replaced. He promised the Apostles His Spirit would come after Him Who would teach them many things and that they would do more than Him…

The Apostles entrusted the Oral Tradition to the bishops and Church Fathers…our priesthood, again is so different than the Mormon concept…we believe in the Apostles Creed, finalized in the Nicene Creed, True God and True Man.

Christ did not pick 12 Apostles and then they stopped. He must have picked the wrong people because they did not establish His church…??? Not for 1800 years, and as such a complete break with the Oral tradition…

As such we cannot recognize baptisms outside Catholic/Orthodoxy and Protestant faiths.

The ideas, actions and behaviors of Joseph Smith contradict the teachings of Christ and His apostles…it is outside our mainstream…and our documents prove we have never swayed…

But the Mormons are not taught them so I am beginning to see then all is being done is taking this pope or that action or this council or that saint…bits and pieces and the whole of Sacred Tradition in context of Sacred Scripture…

So, you can not have meaningful dialogue if the latter party denies the Church ever existed.
 
ParkerD said:
The seer stone was placed inside of a hat to shield extraneous light sources from what needed to be seen as the words appearing on the seer stone (such as on a mini-LCD screen but with the need for extraneous light to be blocked out since the words were appearing as though the letters were illuminated on the surface or inside of the seer stone.) (Again, think of a mini-LCD screen.)
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Why not just sit in a dark room so everyon present could see the stones and read the language from the mini LCD screen/stone. Wouldn’t this have been far more comfortable for Joseph Smith? Or why not use a dark room? Or a cave that was completely dark and silent, so Joseph’s dication could be heard at the cave entrance. Just curious. Have you ever discussed such things with your LDS friends?
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ParkerD:
The prophet-writers of the teachings and experiences described in the Book of Mormon, needed to actually do the work of inscribing the plates with their writings, to preserve their thoughts and teachings in our physical world. The plates were physically present in each place where Joseph did the “translating”, which was more a process of “reading” the thoughts of those ancient writers using a divinely guided and faith-based process than it was “translating” every pictorial or hieroglyphic symbol into its English language representation. During the early part of the “translation” process, Joseph Smith used the “spectacles” and read the plates leaf by leaf, but later he was able to use the seer stone because he had greater faith and greater understanding of how the principle of faith worked for bringing these ancient sources of knowledge into the modern world in a language and usage of English that was itself translatable into other languages.
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Again, why the secrecy among the elders? Why not simply view the tablets together in the dark with the stones, with someone sitting just outside of the dark room taking down the translation? Does the LDS Church teach that only Joseph Smith could see the words because only he had enough faith? Or were there any other LDS elders that claim to have read the tablets? Also, if the “translation” was akin to reading the thoughts of the ancient writers, is this not something close to divination, which is expressly prohibited in the Scriptures?

Also, if you know, were any photos taken of the tablets, the stones, or the glasses? Surely photography was available at the time? If not, why not? Wouldn’t the fledgling LDS Church elders want to document the process as best as they could to support the truths of their claims?

Just curious, but do you ever discuss these sort of matters with your LDS friends?

Peace,
Robert
 
Yes, the issue of secrecy…it gives the impression that the insiders did not want outsiders to know…this is not the spirit of the Church we know…
 
Robert_in_SD said:
Why not just sit in a dark room so everyon present could see the stones and read the language from the mini LCD screen/stone. Wouldn’t this have been far more comfortable for Joseph Smith? Or why not use a dark room? Or a cave that was completely dark and silent, so Joseph’s dication could be heard at the cave entrance. Just curious. Have you ever discussed such things with your LDS friends?

Again, why the secrecy among the elders? Why not simply view the tablets together in the dark with the stones, with someone sitting just outside of the dark room taking down the translation? Does the LDS Church teach that only Joseph Smith could see the words because only he had enough faith? Or were there any other LDS elders that claim to have read the tablets? Also, if the “translation” was akin to reading the thoughts of the ancient writers, is this not something close to divination, which is expressly prohibited in the Scriptures?

Also, if you know, were any photos taken of the tablets, the stones, or the glasses? Surely photography was available at the time? If not, why not? Wouldn’t the fledgling LDS Church elders want to document the process as best as they could to support the truths of their claims?

Just curious, but do you ever discuss these sort of matters with your LDS friends?

Peace,
Robert
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Robert,
Joseph Smith was indeed the only person who could see the words in the seer stone. It worked by the faith of the person, and that person needed to indeed be called of God and be a “seer”, and why in the world one would think he ought to go to a cave or somewhere obscure just shows the logic of those who want some kind of outward proof that would match their own expectation. He had a family to care for at the same time as these things were happening, and he also was continuously worried about those who had heard of “gold plates” and were attempting to follow him and find the plates and rob them for their monetary value. He did a logical thing of using a hat to block out exterior light sources yet still be able to have his scribe be in the same room and write the words he was dictating from reading them on the seer stone.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Doesn’t answer what I asked. You know, something that says specifically Smith believed he was putting his head in a hat to read minds?

So, you believe Smith, and/or yourself and other Mormons, can read the minds of “live people”?
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RebeccaJ,
A translator certainly needs to try and understand the mind of the original writer of a text–as much about that original writer as they can. I don’t know if you think the Holy Spirit “reads minds” or that Christ was able to “read minds” (such as with the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman), but if you don’t then you differ from myself.

Have a peaceful day.
 
ParkerD said:
RebeccaJ,
A translator certainly needs to try and understand the mind of the original writer of a text–as much about that original writer as they can. I don’t know if you think the Holy Spirit “reads minds” or that Christ was able to “read minds” (such as with the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman), but if you don’t then you differ from myself.

Have a peaceful day.
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hi. God is omniscient. This is not “reading minds”. It is an attribute of God.

So again I ask for a reference that Joseph Smith, or a witness, that indicates Smith was reading minds.
 
RebeccaJ said:
hi. God is omniscient. This is not “reading minds”. It is an attribute of God.

So again I ask for a reference that Joseph Smith, or a witness, that indicates Smith was reading minds.
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RebeccaJ,

Here are some pertinent verses about reading “thoughts” and “intents of the heart”:

Matt. 12: 25
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Luke 6: 8
8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.

Alma 10: 17
17 Now they knew not that Amulek could know of their designs. But it came to pass as they began to question him, he perceived their thoughts, and he said unto them: O ye wicked and perverse generation, ye lawyers and hypocrites, for ye are laying the foundations of the devil; for ye are laying traps and snares to catch the holy ones of God.

Alma 12: 7
7 Now when Alma had spoken these words, Zeezrom began to tremble more exceedingly, for he was convinced more and more of the power of God; and he was also convinced that Alma and Amulek had a knowledge of him, for he was convinced that they knew the thoughts and intents of his heart; for power was given unto them that they might know of these things according to the spirit of prophecy.

Have a good day. I certainly agree that God is omniscient, and that is an attribute of God.
 
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