Question For Mormons

[KathleenGee]

God’s prophets’ always speak amidst the gathering of a people…not alone.

God’s prophets always speak with the same image and language…Smith comes out with a totally different message and perspective.

I worked with NW Indians and saw no trace of any Jewish culture…the Jews are known to hold on very tight to their customs through Be’kaa, the memorial.

CC 702, para2, 'By prophets, 'the faith of the Church here understands all whom the Holy Spirit inspired in the composition of the sacred books, both of the Old and New Testaments. Jewish tradition distinguishes first the Law (the five first books or Pentateuch), then the Prophets (our historical and prophetic books) and finally the Writings (especially the wisdom literature, in particularly the Psalms. Luke 24:44.

Man is disfigured by sin and it is Jesus Christ Who gives new life to man…710: .In God’s plan, the Exile already stands in the shadow of the Cross, and the Remnant of the poor that returns from Exile is one of the most transparent prefigurations of the Church…

711 “Behold, I am doing a new thing.” Isa 11:1-2…Two prophetic lines were to develop, one leading to the expectation of the Messiah, the other pointing to the announcement of a new Spirit. They converge in the small remnant, the people of the poor, who await in hope the ‘consolation of Israel’ and ‘the redemption of Jerusalem’. Zeph 2:3

715 The prophetic texts that directly concern the sending of the Holy Spirit are oracles by which God speaks to the heart of his people in the language of promise, with the accents of ‘love and fidelity’. St. Peter will proclaim their fulfillment on the morning of Pentecost. According to these promises, at the ‘end time’ the Lord’s Spirit will renew the hearts of men, engraving a new law in them. He will gatherand reconcile the scattered and divided people;s he will transform first creation, and God will dwell with men in peace.

St. John the Baptist is more than prophet because 'in him, the Holy Spirit concludes his speaking through the prophets. John completes the cycle of the prophets begun by Elijah…

And Mary comes, prepared by grace, fulfilling the plan of the Father, manifests the Son, and through her the Holy Spirit brings men into communion with Jesus Christ…Jesus Christ received his body and blood from the Virgin Mary, conceived without sin.

732 (On Pentecost) the Holy Trinity is revealed…The mission of Christ and the Holy Spirit is brought to completion in the Church, which is the Body of Christ and the Temple of the Holy Spirit. The church itself is sacrament…sent to announce, bear witness, make present and spread the mystery of the communion of the Holy Trinity.

Thus we have no new need for other prophets with a different story.

I would highly recommend that the Mormons get a copy of the Universal Catechism, read it from beginning to end, attend a Mass, especially a daily one where people respond to the priest’s homily. I am fortunate because the priest always draws on the apostolic tradition, the lives of believers in ancient times of the Old Testament and the history of the church in context of its times…following the readings of the liturgical year…we also hear of different saints, their gifts to the church and what they endured.

The Catholic Church is alive with the presence of Jesus Christ…visible in His sacraments and sustained by the Eucharist.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Have a good day. I certainly agree that God is omniscient, and that is an attribute of God.

OK. So you can’t provide a reference from Smith or a witness. Thanks.

 

[ParkerD]

OK. So you can’t provide a reference from Smith or a witness. Thanks.

RebeccaJ,
I suppose that I’ll oblige your question by the following brief experience familiar to readers of Joseph Smith’s life:

"Newel K. Whitney was born on 5 February 1795 at Marlborough, Vermont, the first son and the second child of Samuel Whitney and Susannah Kimball. Young Newel grew up only a few miles from the birthplace of Joseph Smith, who was ten years his junior, yet the two first met as grown men, far from the Vermont of their childhood. In February 1831 the Prophet Joseph Smith entered Newel K. Whitney’s store in Kirtland, Ohio, and exclaimed to the startled proprietor, “Thou art the man!” Newel protested that he did not know this stranger, then heard life-changing words: “I am Joseph the Prophet. You prayed me here; now what do you want of me?”

It was true that he had “prayed” the Prophet there." (source: History of the Church 1:146)

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ,
I suppose that I’ll oblige your question by the following brief experience familiar to readers of Joseph Smith’s life:

"Newel K. Whitney was born on 5 February 1795 at Marlborough, Vermont, the first son and the second child of Samuel Whitney and Susannah Kimball. Young Newel grew up only a few miles from the birthplace of Joseph Smith, who was ten years his junior, yet the two first met as grown men, far from the Vermont of their childhood. In February 1831 the Prophet Joseph Smith entered Newel K. Whitney’s store in Kirtland, Ohio, and exclaimed to the startled proprietor, “Thou art the man!” Newel protested that he did not know this stranger, then heard life-changing words: “I am Joseph the Prophet. You prayed me here; now what do you want of me?”

It was true that he had “prayed” the Prophet there." (source: History of the Church 1:146)

Which doesn’t have anything to do with using a scrying stone to read the minds of people. Not to mention, Whitney was more than gullible, helping to hide Smith’s “marriage” (aka adultery) with his 17 year old daughter, from Emma Smith.

Really, not a character that should not be relied on.

wivesofjosephsmith.org/16-SarahAnnWhitney.htm

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Robert,
Joseph Smith was indeed the only person who could see the words in the seer stone. It worked by the faith of the person, and that person needed to indeed be called of God and be a “seer”,

Did the LDS Church ever have any other seers besides Joseph Smith?

ParkerD:

and why in the world one would think he ought to go to a cave or somewhere obscure just shows the logic of those who want some kind of outward proof that would match their own expectation.

I wasn’t suggesting that he travel far, just that it seems odd to place a hat over your face to translate sacred documents with a seer stone. It seems more reasonable to me that one would want to do it in a way that revealed the legitimacy of the revelation. But, then again, if it is as you describe and only one with the faith of Joseph Smith could see the words, then public displays would be unhelpful to the cause.

ParkerD:

He had a family to care for at the same time as these things were happening, and he also was continuously worried about those who had heard of “gold plates” and were attempting to follow him and find the plates and rob them for their monetary value. He did a logical thing of using a hat to block out exterior light sources yet still be able to have his scribe be in the same room and write the words he was dictating from reading them on the seer stone.

None of these things would have prevented him from sitting in a dark room with some close members of the LDS Church with strong faith, to see if they could discern any of the miraculous and sacred translation that was taking place. I’m not trying to ridicule; just trying to understand the situation. Sorry if my post came off as anything less.

Peace,
Robert

 

[ParkerD]

(1) Did the LDS Church ever have any other seers besides Joseph Smith?

(2) I wasn’t suggesting that he travel far, just that it seems odd to place a hat over your face to translate sacred documents with a seer stone. It seems more reasonable to me that one would want to do it in a way that revealed the legitimacy of the revelation. But, then again, if it is as you describe and only one with the faith of Joseph Smith could see the words, then public displays would be unhelpful to the cause. (This last sentence is correct.)

(3) None of these things would have prevented him from sitting in a dark room with some close members of the LDS Church with strong faith, to see if they could discern any of the miraculous and sacred translation that was taking place. I’m not trying to ridicule; just trying to understand the situation. Sorry if my post came off as anything less.

Peace,
Robert

Robert,
Peace to you also. Thanks for that kind expression.

1–Each apostle as well as the First Presidency are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators; but if your question dealt with translating ancient records, then no other such records have been brought forth but according to the Book of Mormon, someday there will be records of some other Israelite descendants and I assume they will need translating at that time. Joseph F. Smith, son of Hyrum Smith, had a significant vision about the teaching that occurs in the spirit world (see Doctrine and Covenants 138), but that would constitute a different kind of “seership.”

2–He didn’t place a hat over his face. He turned the hat such that the center opening was toward his eyes, with the seer stone on the inside so that his eyes would be better able to see the words as they appeared within the seer stone as he looked at it.

3–He was not trying to demonstrate the translation process; several testified that as they acted as scribe, what he did as he dictated the words to them and came back the next day or after a necessary duty elsewhere, showed without question that he was indeed seeing words because he never asked to have it read back to him and the narrative started where he had left off without any hesitation.

If he had tried to prove to anyone that the translation process was “miraculous” to give evidence to the world in general or to those with doubts, then guess what–that would have been an impure motive and the seership gift of the Holy Spirit would have stopped at that point. He had to have a singleness of mind and a singleness of purpose, and he had those qualities.

Peace and Merry Christmas to you and your family.

 

[ParkerD]

Robert,
Peace to you also. Thanks for that kind expression.

1–Each apostle as well as the First Presidency are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators; but if your question dealt with translating ancient records, then no other such records have been brought forth *since Joseph Smith’s time *but according to the Book of Mormon, someday there will be records of some other Israelite descendants and I assume they will need translating at that time. Joseph F. Smith, son of Hyrum Smith, had a significant vision about the teaching that occurs in the spirit world (see Doctrine and Covenants 138), but that would constitute a different kind of “seership.”

2–He didn’t place a hat over his face. He turned the hat such that the center opening was toward his eyes, with the seer stone on the inside so that his eyes would be better able to see the words as they appeared within the seer stone as he looked at it.

3–He was not trying to demonstrate the translation process; several testified that as they acted as scribe, what he did as he dictated the words to them and came back the next day or after a necessary duty elsewhere, showed without question that he was indeed seeing words because he never asked to have it read back to him and the narrative started where he had left off without any hesitation.

If he had tried to prove to anyone that the translation process was “miraculous” to give evidence to the world in general or to those with doubts, then guess what–that would have been an impure motive and the seership gift of the Holy Spirit would have stopped at that point. He had to have a singleness of mind and a singleness of purpose, and he had those qualities.

Peace and Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Robert or any other reader,
I felt like I needed to clarify that in answering the question about other “seers” after the time of Joseph Smith, I didn’t clarify that obviously Joseph Smith also acted as a seer with respect to other ancient texts after he had translated the Book of Mormon record. But I hope this clarification doesn’t get into another harangue about the Book of Abraham. It serves no useful purpose. Peace and kind wishes to all.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Robert or any other reader,
I felt like I needed to clarify that in answering the question about other “seers” after the time of Joseph Smith, I didn’t clarify that obviously Joseph Smith also acted as a seer with respect to other ancient texts after he had translated the Book of Mormon record. But I hope this clarification doesn’t get into another harangue about the Book of Abraham. It serves no useful purpose. Peace and kind wishes to all.

lol. So you just want to preach about Joe?

The “Book of Abraham” is a con, plain and simple. The purpose of typing this is that is ok, even directed, that we discern false prophets, which in turn exposes false teaching.

 

[KathleenGee]

St. John the Baptist is the last prophet in the line of Elijah to prepare the way for the Lord Jesus Christ…there is no message after Christ.

 

[ricko]

If he had tried to prove to anyone that the translation process was “miraculous” to give evidence to the world in general or to those with doubts, then guess what–that would have been an impure motive and the seership gift of the Holy Spirit would have stopped at that point. He had to have a singleness of mind and a singleness of purpose, and he had those qualities.
.

Heaven forbid that any kind of proof be given or else the wrath of God will be upon you. It is an impure thought to think such a thing. Ye must believe everything with out any reasoning or proof. Faith alone!

 

[ParkerD]

Heaven forbid that any kind of proof be given or else the wrath of God will be upon you. It is an impure thought to think such a thing. Ye must believe everything with out any reasoning or proof. Faith alone!

Ricko,
One ought to read the Bible, study its messages and teachings, live by the teachings of Christ, and find that as Christ taught, “if any man will do His will, he will know of the doctrine.” Those are the sources of proof that I have found to be most meaningful along with the perfect and sure witness of the Holy Spirit. But, to each their own. Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones.

 

[KathleenGee]

The will of God was never left out in the ozone for people to mentally roll dice over.

He said He was our Shepherd…He never left the Church…His Holy Spirit has always guided us.

There is no relativism when it comes to Who God Is, Who is Son is, Who the Holy Spirit and what He intended His church to be…laid out by His apostles…and we are their recipients.

The Catholic Church is in itself a sacrament.

If you say the will of God is to be arbitrated…that is, some how the Catholics were the one to do this, then people are in fact believing in this or that to please their passions, what they want God to be for their own purposes, no matter the veil of righteousness.

The Lord established His church 2,000 years ago. We have a highly defined morality that through the use of theologians helps us to currently understand the Word of God and His will in the times of today. This discipline of the church is highly regulated and when individual theologians err, they are suspended, the point corrected.

The Apostles worked very hard in teaching and correcting those who would take on the work of the Church. To say it ended with them is ludicrous. The message, intent and context of Joseph Smith’s ideas do not fall in place within the Sacred Tradition of Scripture and the only way you can attempt to beat that is to say the church really never was able to exist after Christ and the Apostles.

To say that the Church ceased after the apostles is to insinuate that Christ and His apostles all lived and labored in vain, and ineptly as well. No, the Holy Spirit through the teaching Magesterium of the Church was put into place by the Lord and apostles and continued on through the bishops, priests and deacons and the church fathers.

If you go back and read early church documents, the teachings and practices, you get the concept of the Creed and how it is professed in the liturgy, the problems that came up, how they were addressed and implemented, you will see the same deposit of faith, Spirit and intent then and today.

To deny the lawfulness of the Catholic Church going back that far with an 1,800 gap, the only correct way to understand differences is to go to our sources. It is the only way to fill up such a huge passage of time…rather than drawing on bits and pieces of Scripture here and there that only goes in circles.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

1–Each apostle as well as the First Presidency are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators; but if your question dealt with translating ancient records, then no other such records have been brought forth but according to the Book of Mormon, someday there will be records of some other Israelite descendants and I assume they will need translating at that time. Joseph F. Smith, son of Hyrum Smith, had a significant vision about the teaching that occurs in the spirit world (see Doctrine and Covenants 138), but that would constitute a different kind of “seership.”

But, aside from Joseph Smith, none have ever been called upon to make a miraculous translation of a document. That’s really what my question was asking.

ParkerD:

2–He didn’t place a hat over his face. He turned the hat such that the center opening was toward his eyes, with the seer stone on the inside so that his eyes would be better able to see the words as they appeared within the seer stone as he looked at it.

OK. To avoid an argument over semantics, I’ll accept your description.

ParkerD:

3–He was not trying to demonstrate the translation process; several testified that as they acted as scribe, what he did as he dictated the words to them and came back the next day or after a necessary duty elsewhere, showed without question that he was indeed seeing words because he never asked to have it read back to him and the narrative started where he had left off without any hesitation.

The point of my question was - given that he only needed to be in close proximity to the stone viewed in the subdued lighting of his upturned hat, why not place the stone on an open table in the middle of a darkened room so that other believers could observe the process and, if necessary, assist Smith with the translation.

ParkerD:

If he had tried to prove to anyone that the translation process was “miraculous” to give evidence to the world in general or to those with doubts, then guess what–that would have been an impure motive and the seership gift of the Holy Spirit would have stopped at that point.

I’m not sure I necessarily agree that proceeding among the faithful in such a manner as I described would have been in any way impure. Other visionaries have made some proof of their visions, like Juan Diego who presented the roses and the tilma to his bishop in the midst of the winter. He did not seem to have displeased the Holy Spirit by doing so. The same is true for St. Bernadette Soubiroux, who uncovered the spring that flows through the Grotto at Lourdes. No chastisement there for a very public miracle - not to mention the healings that followed. And the same can be said for Fatima, where the miracle of the Sun was witnessed by many people, including non-believers. I’m not convinced that a public display of miraculous events or occurrences displeases or is inconsistent with God’s purpose per se. Perhaps you could elaborate more on why you see it so differently?

ParkerD:

He had to have a singleness of mind and a singleness of purpose, and he had those qualities.

Where does singleness of mind and purpose negate the possibility of making more open to fellow believers the miraculous manner in which the translation was made of a divinely recovered document (book of Mormon) that was also intended for public dissemination?

ParkerD:

Peace and Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Thankyou. And I hope you had a very Merry Christmas as well.

Peace,
Robert

 

[ParkerD]

1–But, aside from Joseph Smith, none have ever been called upon to make a miraculous translation of a document. That’s really what my question was asking.

OK. To avoid an argument over semantics, I’ll accept your description.

2–The point of my question was - given that he only needed to be in close proximity to the stone viewed in the subdued lighting of his upturned hat, why not place the stone on an open table in the middle of a darkened room so that other believers could observe the process and, if necessary, assist Smith with the translation.

I’m not sure I necessarily agree that proceeding among the faithful in such a manner as I described would have been in any way impure. Other visionaries have made some proof of their visions, like Juan Diego who presented the roses and the tilma to his bishop in the midst of the winter. He did not seem to have displeased the Holy Spirit by doing so. The same is true for St. Bernadette Soubiroux, who uncovered the spring that flows through the Grotto at Lourdes. No chastisement there for a very public miracle - not to mention the healings that followed. And the same can be said for Fatima, where the miracle of the Sun was witnessed by many people, including non-believers. I’m not convinced that a public display of miraculous events or occurrences displeases or is inconsistent with God’s purpose per se. Perhaps you could elaborate more on why you see it so differently?

Where does singleness of mind and purpose negate the possibility of making more open to fellow believers the miraculous manner in which the translation was made of a divinely recovered document (book of Mormon) that was also intended for public dissemination?

Thankyou. And I hope you had a very Merry Christmas as well.

Peace,
Robert

Hi, Robert,
We have enjoyed our children home from college during the Christmas holidays, and enjoyed a lot of caroling and family times, which has been great, thanks.

1–That is correct.

2–The kind of faith we are talking about that was needed for the translation of the Book of Mormon was uncommon and unique–no “miracle” motives, no “proof” motives, no other motive than to bring forth the word of God relating to the groups of people and the prophets who had lived among those groups of people, described in the Book of Mormon.

It is very difficult for people to have completely pure motives. There just wasn’t a need nor a purpose to have witnesses to the process of translation for the sake of either assisting (note: Oliver Cowdery tried to assist and failed because he didn’t understand the necessary faith) or of becoming “believers” because the witness of the Holy Spirit is a more powerful convincer and motivator than outward evidences or even “miracles.”

The book itself stands as its best witness that it is true–but only for those who sincerely desire a true witness out of the depth of their heart. God worked by “surface evidences” among the children of Israel when that was what they needed, but it was because they were not yet able to understand faith. The New Testament gospel moved from “surface evidences” to the evidence given by the Holy Spirit–a pure and certain witness of truths from God. That is what Paul was writing about in 1 Corinthians 2. I suggest you re-read that entire chapter, and think about the difference between the “wisdom of men” and “wisdom from God.”

Peace to you, also. Thanks, Robert.

 

[Answersplease]

Vasian,
The LDS church is not a relics-based religion,

The Catholic Church is a good example of a “relics based religion”. Perhaps “relics based” is an inaccurate term, because it implies that the whole religion is based on “relics,” which is not true. But the Catholic Church is a religion in which the veneration of relics is allowed,…

…

The LDS Church, on the other hand, is totally denuded, theologically or historically, of any such “relics”. The plates of the Book of Mormon or the “seer stone” cannot in any shape or form be compared to such relics. The plates were taken by an angel to heaven as soon as the translation was completed; and even if they existed on earth, they would have not been “venerated”. They were not venerated even when Joseph Smith had them! The same is true of the Urim or Thummim or the seer stone. The seer stone exists, but it is not venerated.

2 Kings 2:13-15
He picked up the cloak that had fallen from Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan.
Then he took the cloak that had fallen from him and struck the water with it. “Where now is the LORD, the God of Elijah?” he asked. When he struck the water, it divided to the right and to the left, and he crossed over.
The company of the prophets from Jericho, who were watching, said, “The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha.” And they went to meet him and bowed to the ground before him.

2 Kings 13:21
Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.

 

[KathleenGee]

About relics, some of the apostles did…St. Jude carried something…my Nigerian Catholic man pointed out the use of remembrances with us.

St. Bernadette Soubirous…you can see her corpus online…totally intact and so beautiful…like she is asleep.

St. Dominic and other saints were given power to raise the dead back to life.

You need to look at the ‘relics’ of documents and artifacts of the earliest churches to also see the Christ and the Apostles ended their work with the death of the last apostle.

 

[Answersplease]

About relics, some of the apostles did…St. Jude carried something…my Nigerian Catholic man pointed out the use of remembrances with us.

St. Bernadette Soubirous…you can see her corpus online…totally intact and so beautiful…like she is asleep.

St. Dominic and other saints were given power to raise the dead back to life.

You need to look at the ‘relics’ of documents and artifacts of the earliest churches to also see the Christ and the Apostles ended their work with the death of the last apostle.

There is also The Ark of The Covenant which contained:

The stone tablets of the ten commandments,

Aaron’s rod (staff),

and manna.

The Ark
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_of_the_covenant

The stone tablets of the ten commandments
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablets_of_Stone

Aaron’s rod (staff)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Aaron

manna
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna