Question for Mormons

[CatholicGuyNY]

Okay, now I’m interested. Can anyone explain how that works? The idea that Michael is Adam and Gabriel is Noah. How does that work? Did they become angels after they died, or were they angels first, who then took on human form as Adam and Noah? Fascinating idea and I had never heard it before. Please share. Thanks!

Mormons believe in something called the “pre-mortal existence”. This belief means that before we were born on this earth, we all lived with God in Heaven. The spirit person known as “Michael” was born/formed on this earth as “Adam”, while the spirit person known as “Gabriel” was born on this earth as Noah.

 

[Sufjon]

Mormons believe in something called the “pre-mortal existence”. This belief means that before we were born on this earth, we all lived with God in Heaven. The spirit person known as “Michael” was born/formed on this earth as “Adam”, while the spirit person known as “Gabriel” was born on this earth as Noah.

Thanks very much - I didn’t know that, although I have to admit that I don’t know much about Mormons I think this is a very interesting concept though. Thanks.

 

[DennisTate]

I believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God.

Do you have a link or reference you would like to share, that explains what is driving your question?

Hi Todd520: Good answer to this question. I am not a Mormon myself but I have attended a couple of meetings which I greatly enjoyed. Something that I have noticed about the Mormons that I met is that they are exceptionally humble and nice. Something extremely positive about the Mormons that I have met online is that they oftene have read many apocryphal books such as The Book of Jasher, or the Book of Mormon or the Book of Adam and Eve. Since I love these abocryphal writings I greatly enjoy debating with Mormons.

I have also noticed that other than for Catholics, Mormons are the most likely of any Christian group to regard the near death experience accounts with a great deal of respect. I love this characteristic because my theology and philosophy have changed greatly since I ran into the NDE accounts in 1990.

Todd520, I have a theory in mind that the Mormon Church is in a perfect position to apply a theory that I put forward in my Theology 130 paper that I wrote up as a blog. I am advocating that Mormons call for the printing up of a Utah State Currency unit, somewhat like Ithaca Hours, or Calgary Dollars, and I suggest that these Utah Dollars be invested in the production of films and organized barter in towns where you have a church.

greendesertstoreducecarbon.blogspot.com/

“It seems to me that turning the world’s one billion hungry people into a market for food produced in our deserts through both aquaculture and agriculture could be the way to reduce the amount of heat going into the atmosphere at the same time that we add fresh water to the water table of North Africa and the Middle East. Every cubic meter added to North Africa will NOT be on top of Florida, New Orleans, Holland or the Maldive Islands!”

 

[DennisTate]

Mormons believe in something called the “pre-mortal existence”. This belief means that before we were born on this earth, we all lived with God in Heaven. The spirit person known as “Michael” was born/formed on this earth as “Adam”, while the spirit person known as “Gabriel” was born on this earth as Noah.

Thank you CatholicGuyNY: This is exceptionally interesting to know. I have ran into similar theories in my readings on the works of Chassidic and Orthodox Jews. Also this would seem to fit with some of what I have read in some NDE accounts. This is another feather in the cap of the Mormon community in my opinion!

 

[DennisTate]

Okay, now I’m interested. Can anyone explain how that works? The idea that Michael is Adam and Gabriel is Noah. How does that work? Did they become angels after they died, or were they angels first, who then took on human form as Adam and Noah? Fascinating idea and I had never heard it before. Please share. Thanks!

Hi Sufjon:

I am not certain if this is true or not but I suspect that this part of the dream given to Jacob may relate to angels, becoming a human.

And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

(Genesis 28:12)

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?(John 9:2)

How could that man possibly have sinned BEFORE being born? Unless this translation is inaccurate this is a highly intriguing scripture that may indicate something along this line.

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?(John 6:70

This verse seems to indicate that a fallen angel, who had perhaps in the past been deceived by Lucifer, may become a human for several reasons. One reason may be to obtain grace through the blood of the Messiah/Mashiach, or in case that person does not make the right decisions then they can play a role that works out the plan of God anyway!?

Gen 25:28

And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of [his] venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob.

God, having a different view of matters than Isaac, disagreed with Isaac over who should be blessed:

Rom 9:13

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

If in fact the Mormons as well as the Jewish community are onto something important with this theory then this would help to explain the full meaning of these verses.

 

[zerinus]

Thanks very much - I didn’t know that, although I have to admit that I don’t know much about Mormons I think this is a very interesting concept though. Thanks.

Unlike traditional Christians, Mormons do not believe that angels were created a separate race of intelligent beings in heaven apart from us humans. We believe that righteous humans like prophets, patriarchs, and saints, when they die and go to heaven, both in the spirit world as spirits, as well as after they are resurrected, act as divine messengers in the service of God, which is another word for angels. In other words, they become angels; and we believe that all “angels” were in fact previously mortals like us who had died, and now act as angels or messengers of God, either as spirits or as resurrected beings. Adam and Noah are two examples of this rule. They are now angels in the service of God, just as we will be if we have lived righteous lives while we were here on earth. This of course has its opposite counterpart. Those who have lived evil lives and have not repented of it in this life, when they die go to hell where they become servants, or angels, to the devil, and do what he tells them to do.

 

[Sufjon]

Hi Sufjon:

I am not certain if this is true or not but I suspect that this part of the dream given to Jacob may relate to angels, becoming a human.

(Genesis 28:12)

How could that man possibly have sinned BEFORE being born? Unless this translation is inaccurate this is a highly intriguing scripture that may indicate something along this line.

This verse seems to indicate that a fallen angel, who had perhaps in the past been deceived by Lucifer, may become a human for several reasons. One reason may be to obtain grace through the blood of the Messiah/Mashiach, or in case that person does not make the right decisions then they can play a role that works out the plan of God anyway!?

Gen 25:28

God, having a different view of matters than Isaac, disagreed with Isaac over who should be blessed:

Rom 9:13

If in fact the Mormons as well as the Jewish community are onto something important with this theory then this would help to explain the full meaning of these verses.

Thanks for the background and the research Dennis. I never knew any of that.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Sufjon:

I am not certain if this is true or not but I suspect that this part of the dream given to Jacob may relate to angels, becoming a human.

(Genesis 28:12)

How could that man possibly have sinned BEFORE being born? Unless this translation is inaccurate this is a highly intriguing scripture that may indicate something along this line.

This verse seems to indicate that a fallen angel, who had perhaps in the past been deceived by Lucifer, may become a human for several reasons. One reason may be to obtain grace through the blood of the Messiah/Mashiach, or in case that person does not make the right decisions then they can play a role that works out the plan of God anyway!?

Gen 25:28

God, having a different view of matters than Isaac, disagreed with Isaac over who should be blessed:

Rom 9:13

If in fact the Mormons as well as the Jewish community are onto something important with this theory then this would help to explain the full meaning of these verses.

One Problem though, it goes totally against scripture. Jesus said we are only born once. God knows everything. He knew who we were and what we were to become the moment we first breathed. But just because he knows everything does not mean anything changes. We have free will. He just knows our heart. As Peter stateed Lord you know everything. He knew Peter would betray him also. But it was Peter’s free will that he betrayed Jesus. But Jesus also knew Peters heart and knew his Love for Jesus and knew Peter would repent and ask for forgiveness.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Unlike traditional Christians, Mormons do not believe that angels were created a separate race of intelligent beings in heaven apart from us humans. We believe that righteous humans like prophets, patriarchs, and saints, when they die and go to heaven, both in the spirit world as spirits, as well as after they are resurrected, act as divine messengers in the service of God, which is another word for angels. In other words, they become angels; and we believe that all “angels” were in fact previously mortals like us who had died, and now act as angels or messengers of God, either as spirits or as resurrected beings. Adam and Noah are two examples of this rule. They are now angels in the service of God, just as we will be if we have lived righteous lives while we were here on earth. This of course has its opposite counterpart. Those who have lived evil lives and have not repented of it in this life, when they die go to hell where they become servants, or angels, to the devil, and do what he tells them to do.

were angels sinners like your god?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Mormons tend not to outright say that Jesus (pre-mortally known as Jehovah) and Lucifer were spirit brothers. Mormons instead believe that we all lived with God in what is termed a “pre-mortal existence”, and that we are the literal spirit children of the Father (and Heavenly Mother). Jesus/Jehovah was the firstborn son of God. Lucifer was also one of the spirit children, who rebelled against God in the pre-mortal existence. Jesus is therefore our elder brother (since He is the firstborn of the Father’s spirit children), and since Lucifer was also a son of God, Jesus and the rest of us were also his brothers and sisters.

I added the color to Catholic Guy’s quote.

–quote–
Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ . . .He is our elder brother . . .

We needed a savior to pay for our sins and to teach us how to return to our heavenly father . . . Two of our brothers offered to help . . .Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said: “Here I am, send me.” …] Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came and said . . . “send me” … Satan wanted to be our God…

Because our heavenly father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled . . .
–end quote–

Excerpt from Gospel Principles, used as an instruction book for Mormons, published by the Corporation of the President of The Church os Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1988

And Mormons claim to the Christian? Uh uh, no way.

Jim Dandy

 

[Todd520]

I added the color to Catholic Guy’s quote.

–quote–
Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ . . .He is our elder brother . . .

We needed a savior to pay for our sins and to teach us how to return to our heavenly father . . . Two of our brothers offered to help . . .Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said: “Here I am, send me.” …] Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came and said . . . “send me” … Satan wanted to be our God…

Because our heavenly father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled . . .
–end quote–

Excerpt from Gospel Principles, used as an instruction book for Mormons, published by the Corporation of the President of The Church os Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1988

And Mormons claim to the Christian? Uh uh, no way.

Jim Dandy

LOL, and pray tell how do you describe the difference or similarity between Our souls, Angels and Jesus??

Since all three were created by God, we are all his children in some fashion.

I’m betting the Catechism just avoids the subject, which makes it easy for you to say “They’re wrong”

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

LOL, and pray tell how do you describe the difference or similarity between Our souls, Angels and Jesus??

Since all three were created by God, we are all his children in some fashion.

I’m betting the Catechism just avoids the subject, which makes it easy for you to say “They’re wrong”

Oh my, you just aren’t familiar with Catholicism are you?

Catholicism teaches that angels are of a different “species” than humans. Mormonism does not hold to such a belief.

Catholicism does not believe that Jesus was created by God the Father. That very issue was the reason behind the Council of Nicaea. We believe that Jesus (God the Son) is co-eternal with the Father, and has therefore eternally existed, and was never created.

 

[Todd520]

Oh my, you just aren’t familiar with Catholicism are you?

Catholicism teaches that angels are of a different “species” than humans. Mormonism does not hold to such a belief.

Catholicism does not believe that Jesus was created by God the Father. That very issue was the reason behind the Council of Nicaea. We believe that Jesus (God the Son) is co-eternal with the Father, and has therefore eternally existed, and was never created.

If God created souls and angels, then they have a common father and are related, even if of a different species

Yea, I forgot the Trinity is a spirit with three seperate persons and one common nature or body, what I describe as a spirit chimera.

Why do you bother calling Jesus the Son of God if when you don’t believe it? It’s just confusing Catholic doublespeak

 

[PopeBono]

We believe that Michael as spoken of in Daniel chapter 10:13; 21 and 12:1, Jude 1:9 and Revelations 12:7 is Adam.
We believe that Revelations 12:1-12 speaks of a pre-mortal life in which all of god creations (which is everyone as he is the creator of all) were in a council. In this council two plans were given. the first was by Satan. He presented that throughout our lives on earth he would control us and insure that no one sinned so that we could all return to heaven spotless and be able to be in God’s presence but he also wanted to receive the all of the glory for his work. The second plan was put forth by Christ our Savior. He knew the importance of agency and that an important part of mortality is that we experience all of the emotions of life and be able to experience the refiners fire. By doing this he knew that we would become spotted and unable to return to God’s presence. He offered himself as a sacrifice and he wanted to give all of the Glory to God. God chose Christs plan and Satan was angry and he as well as a 1/3rd of other Pre-mortal spirits who supported Satan’s plan were cast out of Heaven. Michael with his angels (us) forced him out.
When Michael took upon his mortal life he became known as Adam.
We do not believe that Satan and Christ are brothers as in how we would view brothers in a family here on earth. We believe that God Created all and by such we are all his sons and daughters.
We believe that he will return in the last days as Michael the archangel in his glory as power as patriarch of the human family, preparatory to the second coming of Christ.
We also believe in a book called the book of Moses. This goes into more description and very closely follows the book of Genesis but does have differences that explain our viewpoint better.
As far as us believing in Multiple Gods- We believe there is but one God and he is creator of all things. We do however believe that God is willing to let all those that follow him and are found spotless through the blood of Christ have the ability through God to become perfected and he can endow us with all of his powers thus becoming Godlike.

What is the Catholic view on who Adam is?

 

[Marie5890]

What is the Catholic view on who Adam is?

Adam is Adam. A human creature like all of us.
Catholics don’t believe in the “pre-existance” PopeBono.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

If God created souls and angels, then they have a common father and are related, even if of a different species

So we’re related to lions and fish, since God created them? This is not logical, and you’re attempting to force a Mormon belief onto Catholic belief. We believe that the angels are of a different order of “species” than humans, and we are not related to them at all.

Yea, I forgot the Trinity is a spirit with three seperate persons and one common nature or body, what I describe as a spirit chimera.

No, they do not have a common body, which makes your “spirit chimera” statement false. Only Jesus has a body, since He was the only Person of the Trinity to incarnate. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons from Jesus, and they therefore do not share Jesus’ body, and they are not attached to each other either.

Why do you bother calling Jesus the Son of God if when you don’t believe it? It’s just confusing Catholic doublespeak

Who said we don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God? We obviously do. We believe that since Jesus is God, He has eternally existed, along with the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus has eternally existed as the Son of God (hence why the Nicene Creed states “eternally begotten of the Father”). Jesus is also the Son of God in that He was born of this earth of the virgin Mary and His Father in Heaven.

Please read the Catechism:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a2.htm#III

Also the Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm

 

[PopeBono]

Adam is Adam. A human creature like all of us.
Catholics don’t believe in the “pre-existance” PopeBono.

Thank you for replying, I have a question about Mary, Mother of Jesus. Is she a human creature as well? I know the obvious that she was the mother of Jesus and a pure and chosen Vessel and the Mother of the Son of God, but I believe the Catholic’s pray to her which might make he more than a human creature? I may be wrong on that but I would be interested to know how she is viewed from a Catholic Perspective.

 

[DennisTate]

One Problem though, it goes totally against scripture. Jesus said we are only born once. God knows everything. He knew who we were and what we were to become the moment we first breathed. But just because he knows everything does not mean anything changes. We have free will. He just knows our heart. As Peter stateed Lord you know everything. He knew Peter would betray him also. But it was Peter’s free will that he betrayed Jesus. But Jesus also knew Peters heart and knew his Love for Jesus and knew Peter would repent and ask for forgiveness.

Hi Rinnie: Good points, but there are powerful scriptures that could indicate something very different regarding what is happening here.

And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD [came] to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

(I Kings 19:9)

1Ki 19:13

And it was [so], when Elijah heard [it], that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, [there came] a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

The fact that God simply asked Elijah what he was doing at Mt. Horeb, implies that Mt. Horeb may not have been where God had wanted Elijah to be?!

There is a school of thought that if Elijah HAD NOT ran away from Queen Jezebel and her armies, there had existed a window of opportunity to bring all of the northern tribes of Israel back to God. If Elijah had stood his ground and if a miracle toward Queen Jezebel and her armies, similar to II Kings chapter 1, where two captains of fifty, and their fifty are consumed by fire from heaven, could have happened, a little earlier, and a totally different future would have been set in motion. The captivity of the northern tribes of Israel at the hands of the Assyrian Empire could have been at the minimum delayed, but perhaps even prevented altogether.

How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
[If] I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

(Psa 139:18)

If this theory on why God asked that question of Elijah is valid, then the awesome sum of thuoghts of God toward King DAvid may be because each decision that King DAvid made, created a somewhat different future, than if he had made another decision. Some people affect the future moreso than others do because of their position in society. A case can be presented that this will fit quite nicely with theoretical physics.

My point is that God may have had plan a, plan b, plan c…and on and on, depending on the decisions of King David.

 

[DennisTate]

We believe that Michael as spoken of in Daniel chapter 10:13; 21 and 12:1, Jude 1:9 and Revelations 12:7 is Adam.
We believe that Revelations 12:1-12 speaks of a pre-mortal life in which all of god creations (which is everyone as he is the creator of all) were in a council. In this council two plans were given. the first was by Satan. He presented that throughout our lives on earth he would control us and insure that no one sinned so that we could all return to heaven spotless and be able to be in God’s presence but he also wanted to receive the all of the glory for his work. The second plan was put forth by Christ our Savior. He knew the importance of agency and that an important part of mortality is that we experience all of the emotions of life and be able to experience the refiners fire. By doing this he knew that we would become spotted and unable to return to God’s presence. He offered himself as a sacrifice and he wanted to give all of the Glory to God. God chose Christs plan and Satan was angry and he as well as a 1/3rd of other Pre-mortal spirits who supported Satan’s plan were cast out of Heaven. Michael with his angels (us) forced him out.
When Michael took upon his mortal life he became known as Adam.
We do not believe that Satan and Christ are brothers as in how we would view brothers in a family here on earth. We believe that God Created all and by such we are all his sons and daughters.
We believe that he will return in the last days as Michael the archangel in his glory as power as patriarch of the human family, preparatory to the second coming of Christ.
We also believe in a book called the book of Moses. This goes into more description and very closely follows the book of Genesis but does have differences that explain our viewpoint better.
As far as us believing in Multiple Gods- We believe there is but one God and he is creator of all things. We do however believe that God is willing to let all those that follow him and are found spotless through the blood of Christ have the ability through God to become perfected and he can endow us with all of his powers thus becoming Godlike.

What is the Catholic view on who Adam is?

Fascinating response PopeBono! I shall definitely do a search for the Book of Moses!
I suspect it may be somewhat similar to the Book of Adam and Eve, parts one and two, which I did read.

You may find this writing interesting that is part of an e-mail that I recently sent to a Rabbi who is a member of the Sanhedrin.

//One of the greatest ideological divisions between Christians, Jews and Moslems
is how we regard the parentage of Rabbi Yahushua/Jesus. I have an alternative
theory on this subject that could make greater understanding between all of us possible. My theory hinges on the relatively new idea that the four forces of
electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force can be unified in eleven
dimensions of space-time.

The Oneness of HaShem is important. My theory is that HaShem is composed of
ABSOLUTELY fundamental energy. I suspect that the Ruach ha Kodesh/ The Holy
Spirit could be like HaShem the Mother who He may have taken out of his own’
side much as a rib was taken out of Adam. The Holy Spirit could be like Wisdom
who was with H-m from the beginning, but she could exist in tenth, ninth, eighth, etc.,
space time, but not in absolutely fundamental energy as HaShem, the Father
does.

The Spirit of Mashiach, stored in Gan Eden, from the foundation of the world,
could be identifiable with The Logos or the Word, who has acted as an
intermediary between mankind and HaShem. The Spirit of Mashiach/Word could
exist in either tenth or ninth dimensional space time thus backing up the
Oneness of G-d.

//And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.// (Luke 1:35)

If The Ruach ha Kodesh, the Holy Spirit is indeed in the form of a woman we can
rest assured that she is a phenomenal physician. She would have no difficulty in
taking a sperm sample from Isaiah, freezing or otherwise preserving it for seven
centuries or so, and using it to impregnate Mary/Myriam the wife of Joseph.

It is impossible for a truly objective Christian theologian to rule out this
possibility. This theory could be a major step paving the way for a vastly
greater level of understanding between Jews, Christians and Moslems. If we
Christians can get our heads around the idea that there is no logical or scriptural
basis for dogmatically asserting that Yahushua/Jesus was directly begotten by
HaShem himself, then the entire world has been changed.

There are verses in Isaiah chapters 7 and 8 that cause me to believe that Yahushua/Jesus
may have been produced by a donation of spermatozoa from Isaiah that he probably
knew nothing about donating.

// Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.// (Isaiah 7:14-16)
…
//And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.// (Isaiah 8:3)// (me, May 22, 2010)

 

[PopeBono]

Fascinating response PopeBono! I shall definitely do a search for the Book of Moses!
I suspect it may be somewhat similar to the Book of Adam and Eve, parts one and two, which I did read.

You may find this writing interesting that is part of an e-mail that I recently sent to a Rabbi who is a member of the Sanhedrin.

Interesting thought that the Holy Spirit may be feminine. Being LDS I believe that there is a Heavenly Mother who is Gods eternal companion and have often pondered in my own mind if the holy spirit was her. Many of the attributes of the Holy Spirit are the same attributes that earthly mothers are: comforting, still small voice etcc… probably a blasphemous comment according to both faiths but nonetheless my pondering. It ties the Godhead together as family unit. (Not Mormon doctrine that is my doctrine)

The Origins of the Book of Moses are highly sceptical to a most people. I have done my own research and have read every viewpoint. it is often difficult to discern truth from error on all viewpoints. If you can get past questioning the origins and by this I am not implying that you accept it as true but to just read like you would a novel. you will get the basis of much of what we believe as far as Adam and the premortal life.