Question for Mormons

[dianaiad]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is St Michael the archangel?

That was asked and answered on another thread, rinnie.

No.

We don’t.

 

[dianaiad]

Oh, But are JW and SDA still mormons though?

No, they aren’t 'still mormons." In fact…they never WERE.

Sorry for the confusion, but Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, though they are all three “Restorationist” churches, don’t share a whole lot of doctrine, nor do they share beginnings.

 

[dianaiad]

So then the JW and SDA are more or less the same then?

No, there is very little similarity between JW and SDA…and the two would be horrified at a comparison.

 

[dianaiad]

No…SDA’s have a distinctly Trinitarian belief system and theology. They believe they are the Remant Church…they believe that Christ entered the Heavenly Sanctuary in 1844 (I believe) to beging the investigative process of judgement (I think is how it’s phrased) before he returns.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Trinitarian and believe Christ returned spiritually in 1914…his spiritual return ushered in “wars and rumors of wars” and will soon return to establish his millenial kingdom.

Both do not believe in consciousness after death…SDA believe the soul “sleeps” until the 1st resurrection…JW’s believe the soul dies along with the body…at the final resurrection those worthy will be “recreated” as imortal beings…and all who are not found worthy will “cease to exist”…“destroyed”…I believe the “cease to exist” is shared with the SDA…the nature of the soul/spirit is different between the two groups.

Both believe that Michael the archangel was the pre-exient Christ…but SDA’s are Trinitarian and believe in the full diety of Christ…JW’s believe Christ was God’s “First Creation”.

I had no idea that SDA’s believed that Jesus was Michael! Do you have an SDA source for this, my friend? (not that I disbelieve you…you are more trustworthy than almost anybody here regarding the beliefs of other faiths, but you know me; I have to confirm everything by the ‘true believers.’ )

Diana…who, quite frankly, still gets bemused at the mainstream idea that Jesus was Melchezedek…

 

[SirThomasMore]

Depending on what LDS “prophet” you listen to, Adam was either Michael or God.

 

[dianaiad]

Yes I can see I am going to have to do that, So then the way I see it if I am correct the Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brother’s right? And there are plural god’s.

And the JW believe the Jesus and St Michael are the same person.

And the SDA (I am almost afraid to find out what the believe) But will check it out. But I thought they all went by the book of mormon.

got alot to figure out.

rinnie…

(sigh)

Yes, we believe that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers…but only in the sense that all spirits are siblings, sharing God as our Father. In the sense that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, He has NO siblings. In the sense that Jesus was born to a mortal mother, He becomes ‘brother’ to all of us who have been born…and in neither of those cases can Lucifer be called His brother.

This little bit of silliness was winkled out of the belief we have that mankind was created spiritually…and that there are no special creations; angels are simply people with a job, for instance. In that sense, then, we believe that Lucifer is your brother, and mine, as well as Jesus’. There is no more to the relationship than that, though.

 

[dianaiad]

Mormons tend not to outright say that Jesus (pre-mortally known as Jehovah) and Lucifer were spirit brothers.

Really? I was under the impression that I just, uhmn…did exactly that. To be honest, the first time I heard someone say that 'Mormons believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers!" in tones of utter horror and disgust, my first reaction was…yeah, so? I have always felt that this particular charge is one of the most disengenuous, dishonest and misleading things anybody has ever said about us. For one thing, only someone who understood completly WHY we believe that would be able to state it…and therefore whoever did it first was a particularly nasty sort of liar, deliberatly taking things out of context and presenting it in an incredibly twisted fashion…rather like someone who puts “Catholics are cannibals; they think they are eating Jesus!” in a pamphlet. It’s very much the same sort of intent and feeling going on there.

Mormons instead believe that we all lived with God in what is termed a “pre-mortal existence”, and that we are the literal spirit children of the Father (and Heavenly Mother). Jesus/Jehovah was the firstborn son of God. Lucifer was also one of the spirit children, who rebelled against God in the pre-mortal existence. Jesus is therefore our elder brother (since He is the firstborn of the Father’s spirit children), and since Lucifer was also a son of God, Jesus and the rest of us were also his brothers and sisters.

There is more to it than that, of course, but you have it basically right.

Yes, Mormons believe in a plurality of gods. They believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods that come together as one in purpose, forming “the Godhead”. The Father is the head God, and the Son and Holy Ghost are two of His sons, and are subordinate to Him. ?quote]

Actually, no. While it is true that we are not Trinitarian, we do not believe that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are subordinate to God the Father…at least, not in the sense you seem to be saying.

 

[dianaiad]

Thanks very much - I didn’t know that, although I have to admit that I don’t know much about Mormons I think this is a very interesting concept though. Thanks.

It might help to understand that we (Mormons) believe that ‘angel’ is a job description, not a species classification.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

Really? I was under the impression that I just, uhmn…did exactly that.

Hence why I clearly used the word “tend”.

Reading articles written by Mormons or the LDS church, you will be hard pressed to find many instances of the statement “Jesus and Lucifer were spirit brothers”, which was my point. As on FAIR article points out, it is “technically true” to say this.

To be honest, the first time I heard someone say that 'Mormons believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers!" in tones of utter horror and disgust, my first reaction was…yeah, so? I have always felt that this particular charge is one of the most disengenuous, dishonest and misleading things anybody has ever said about us. For one thing, only someone who understood completly WHY we believe that would be able to state it…and therefore whoever did it first was a particularly nasty sort of liar, deliberatly taking things out of context and presenting it in an incredibly twisted fashion…rather like someone who puts “Catholics are cannibals; they think they are eating Jesus!” in a pamphlet. It’s very much the same sort of intent and feeling going on there.

As mentioned to Todd, traditional Christians believe that the Son of God has eternally existed as the Son of God, and therefore the notion that He was created/organized as others were, is blasphemous. This may be why there is such horror and disgust, in part.

Actually, no. While it is true that we are not Trinitarian, we do not believe that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are subordinate to God the Father…at least, not in the sense you seem to be saying.

What was the sense that I seemed to be saying? Mormons clearly believe that the Son and the Holy Ghost are subordinate to the Father, and are both spirit sons of the Father.

 

[SirThomasMore]

rinnie…

(sigh)

Yes, we believe that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers…but only in the sense that all spirits are siblings, sharing God as our Father. In the sense that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, He has NO siblings. In the sense that Jesus was born to a mortal mother, He becomes ‘brother’ to all of us who have been born…and in neither of those cases can Lucifer be called His brother.

This little bit of silliness was winkled out of the belief we have that mankind was created spiritually…and that there are no special creations; angels are simply people with a job, for instance. In that sense, then, we believe that Lucifer is your brother, and mine, as well as Jesus’. There is no more to the relationship than that, though.

That is a whitewash of what Mormons have taught. Mormons leaders in the past have been very clear that Jesus and Satan are brothers and their dad used to be a sinful man. Over the years, as Mormons try to become more mainstream, they try to whitewash their past beliefs to appear more like traditional Christians

 

[PopeBono]

That is a whitewash of what Mormons have taught. Mormons leaders in the past have been very clear that Jesus and Satan are brothers and their dad used to be a sinful man. Over the years, as Mormons try to become more mainstream, they try to whitewash their past beliefs to appear more like traditional Christians

SirThomasMore- You have truth and error in your statements. The philosophies of men mingled with Gods word has been a problem in all ages and in all churches. It is the main reason why our world is in disarray. We firmly believe that God is creator of all things both in Heaven and Earth. We also firmly believe that as spoken of in Revelations 12 that Lucifer is a fallen spirit who did not inherit his first estate (mortal body on earth) and became Satan. By virtue of him being in Gods presence with us as one of Gods Creation he is viewed by the LDS as a spirit brother allbeit a fallen one, compare this to the Son of God Our Savior who came to fulfill the will of his Father. His Holiness is Eternal. One is fallen and One is Risen.
There is no statement I have ever read that states that God was once sinful, in this you error. We do adhere to the belief that he was once mortal like we are, his son was mortal much like us but lived a life free of sin.

 

[PopeBono]

LDS official definition of God:
The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone (D&C 130: 22-23).
When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done “by God” were actually done by the LORD (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1: 1), but we know that it was actually the LORD (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1: 3, 10), or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3: 9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.
Although God created all things and is the ruler of the universe, being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (through his Spirit), mankind has a special relationship to him that differentiates man from all other created things: man is literally God’s offspring, made in his image, whereas all other things are but the work of his hands (cf. Acts 17: 28-29).
The God of the scriptures is a holy being. Man is commanded to be holy because God is holy (Lev. 11: 44-45; Lev. 19: 2). God can be known only by revelation. He must be revealed, or remain forever unknown (cf. Mosiah 4: 9). God first revealed himself to Adam (Moses 5; 6) and has repeatedly made himself known by revelation to chosen patriarchs and prophets since that time. The present translation of John 1: 18 and 1 Jn. 4: 12 is misleading, for these say that no man has ever seen God. However, the scriptures state that there have been many who have seen him. The JST corrects these items to show that no sinful man has ever seen God, and also that Jesus Christ is the only Way to God. God the Father and his Son have been manifested by voice, sight, or otherwise at various times, as at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3: 16-17); the Transfiguration (Matt. 17: 1-8); to Stephen (Acts 7: 55-56); and to the Nephites (3 Ne. 11: 7). The Father and the Son personally visited Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove, in the spring of 1820, near Manchester, New York, in the opening of the dispensation of the fulness of times (JS-H 1: 11-20).
Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical account of God as the literal father of the human family; as a being who is concerned for the welfare of mankind, and a Personage who hears and answers prayers.
For other references to God, see Heb. 1: 1-3; Jacob 4: 5; D&C 20: 17.

 

[PopeBono]

LDS official definition of the Devil:

The English word devil in the KJV is used to represent several different words in Greek, i.e., slanderer, demon, and adversary, and Hebrew, i.e., spoiler. The devil is the enemy of righteousness and of those who seek to do the will of God. Literally a spirit son of God, he was at one time “an angel” in authority in the presence of God; however, he rebelled in the premortal life, at which time he persuaded a third of the spirit children of the Father to rebel with him, in opposition to the plan of salvation championed by Jehovah (Jesus Christ). “Thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29: 37). They were cast out of heaven, and were denied the experience of mortal bodies and earth life (Isa. 14: 12-15; Rev. 12: 4-9; 2 Ne. 2: 17; 2 Ne. 9: 8; D&C 29: 36-38; D&C 76: 25-26; D&C 93: 25; Moses 4: 1-4; Abr. 3: 27-28).
Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical teaching that the devil is a reality and that he does strive to lead men and women from the work of God. One of the major techniques of the devil is to cause human beings to think they are following God’s ways, when in reality they are deceived by the devil to follow other paths.
Since the devil and his premortal angels have no physical body of flesh and bones, they often seek to possess the bodies of mortal beings. There are many such instances recorded in scripture (Matt. 9: 32; Matt. 12: 22; Mark 1: 24; Mark 5: 7; Luke 8: 30; Acts 19: 15; cf. Mosiah 3: 6). Such can be evicted by the power of faith in Jesus Christ and the exercise of the holy priesthood. Jesus gave this power to his disciples (Matt. 10: 1; Mark 16: 17; Luke 10: 17; Acts 5: 16; D&C 84: 67).
The devil is called the prince of this world (John 12: 31; John 14: 30; John 16: 11); the adversary (1 Pet. 5: 8); Beelzebub, meaning the prince of the devils (Mark 3: 22); the wicked one (Matt. 13: 38); the enemy (Matt. 13: 39); Lucifer (Isa. 14: 12; D&C 76: 26); Satan (Rev. 12: 9); prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2: 2-3); Perdition (D&C 76: 26); son of the morning (D&C 76: 26-27); that old serpent (Rev. 12: 9; D&C 76: 28); the great dragon (Rev. 12: 7-9); a murderer from the beginning (John 8: 44); a liar from the beginning (D&C 93: 25); and the accuser (Rev. 12: 10).
He is miserable in his situation, and “stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness” (2 Ne. 9: 9). He tries to imitate the work of God by transforming himself nigh unto an angel of light (2 Cor. 11: 12-15; 2 Ne. 9: 9; D&C 128: 20). He is also a worker of miracles, by which he deceives many upon the earth (Rev. 13: 1-15). In fact, the scripture says he deceives the whole world (Rev. 12: 9). He can cite scripture to make his point seem plausible (Matt. 4: 1-11). All of this is his scheme to make man miserable like himself. Protection against the influence of the devil is found by obedience to the commandments and laws of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The message of all the prophets and apostles is that truth, righteousness, and peace shall in the end prevail over error, sin, and war; the faithful shall triumph over all their afflictions and enemies, and shall triumph over the devil. There shall be a complete and lasting victory of righteousness over wickedness on this earth, which will be done by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Publisher]

I had no idea that SDA’s believed that Jesus was Michael! Do you have an SDA source for this, my friend? (not that I disbelieve you…you are more trustworthy than almost anybody here regarding the beliefs of other faiths, but you know me; I have to confirm everything by the ‘true believers.’ )

Diana…who, quite frankly, still gets bemused at the mainstream idea that Jesus was Melchezedek…

“There is none that holdeth with me in these things but Michael (Christ) your prince.” (Desire of Ages, p.99)

There are more in the writings of Ellen G. White…but this should suffice.

 

[dianaiad]

“There is none that holdeth with me in these things but Michael (Christ) your prince.” (Desire of Ages, p.99)

There are more in the writings of Ellen G. White…but this should suffice.

Yep, that does it. Thanks!

Diana

 

[Jim_Dandy]

LOL, and pray tell how do you describe the difference or similarity between Our souls, Angels and Jesus??

Since all three were created by God, we are all his children in some fashion.

I’m betting the Catechism just avoids the subject, which makes it easy for you to say “They’re wrong”

God created the universe, which has two divisions – spirit and matter. The material world is God’s work of art, but spiritual beings are His self-portraits. Time came into being with the creation of the universe. Time is the measure of change.

The human soul is a spirit, so that every man bears a portrait of God within him. This is what it means to be created in God’s image and likeness. It is not the highest created spirit, however.

Angels are pure spirit. They have no body element at all – but they have mind and will. We know angels exist by God’s revelation. Angel means “messenger.” They are messengers of God. They are higher in the order of creation than man. They are not “children” of God. “Children” is a term that applies only to the human family.

God is pure Spirit, infinite Spirit. He is omniscient, omnipresent, immortal and exists in the eternal NOW. He is eternal, timeless, changeless. Eternity is not time at all. It is God’s total possession of Himself.

Jesus is God Incarnate, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, consubstantial with the Father, light from light, true God from true God. He who is pure Spirit and co-exists eternally with the Father and the Spirit took human flesh in the womb of the Virgin Mary and lived among us for 33 years.

How sad that you learned so little about the Catholic faith – which is Truth itself – before you left it. You can’t love what you don’t know.

Fact is, Joseph Smith was a con man who is still conning people from his grave.

Peace, Jim Dandy

.

 

[Todd520]

God created the universe, which has two divisions – spirit and matter. The material world is God’s work of art, but spiritual beings are His self-portraits. Time came into being with the creation of the universe. Time is the measure of change.

The human soul is a spirit, so that every man bears a portrait of God within him. This is what it means to be created in God’s image and likeness. It is not the highest created spirit, however.

Angels are pure spirit. They have no body element at all – but they have mind and will. We know angels exist by God’s revelation. Angel means “messenger.” They are messengers of God. They are higher in the order of creation than man. They are not “children” of God. “Children” is a term that applies only to the human family.
.

Jim, I believe it is just **your own definition **that “children” of God excludes other spirit matter created by God. If this is clear doctrine in the Catechism, I’d love to seee it. If it is not, then you understand the revelance in my usage, that all spirits created by God (even if different levels of spirit) are thus children of our Father.

How do you incorporate Jesus into the Trinity? My understanding is the RCC considers him to be of both spirit and “flesh and bone” If correct, this makes the Trinity 1/3 flesh and bone.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

As far as us believing in Multiple Gods- We believe there is but one God and he is creator of all things.

Your Mormon teachers didn’t tell you?

Excerpts from the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, 1989:

–quote–

Index, Gods (plurality of)

p. 311-12 - If I were to testify that the Christian world were wrong on this point [monotheism], my testimony would be true.

p. 370 - I will preach on the plurality of Gods. … when I have preached on the subject of the Diety, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the elders for fifteen years. …
… we have three Gods anyhow [Father, Son, Spirit], and they are plural, and who can contradict it?

Paul says there are Gods many, Lords many … but to us there is but one God – that is pertaining to us . . .

Gods, a plurality of, met in Grand Council

P. 349 - In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a Council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and the people in it.

P. 350 - Now, I ask all who hear me, why the learned men who are preaching salvation say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? The reason is that they are unlearned in the things of God, and have not the gift of the Holy Spirit , If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together.
–end quote–

Mormons claim to be monotheists, not polytheists or henotheists, because they believe only one of the many Gods that exist “pertain to us” – the God of earth. They change the definition of monotheism to make it fit their doctrine. They do the same with the Trinity – there are three separate Mormon Gods, Father, Son, and Spirit, united in purpose – that’s what Mormons mean when they say “Trinity.” You gotta be careful of the Mormon language. They use redefined Christian terms that mean something entirely different in an attempt to make Mormonism acceptable to Christians – and to call themselves Christians.

Jim Dandy

 

[PopeBono]

There is a widely denounced LDS concept known as the “plurality of gods” which teaches that humans are sons and daughters of God - His offspring (Acts 17:28) - capable of becoming more like Him by accepting the fullness of the Gospel and grace of Christ (see also John 10:34,35; Matt. 5:48). The possibility of multiple “godlike” beings may be what Paul referred to when he said there are “gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father” (1 Cor. 8:5,6) and what David meant in Psalm 8:4,5 when he said that man is “a little lower than the gods” (KJV gives “lower than the angels” but the Hebrew word is “gods” - I guess it was just too painful for the translators to put down the correct word).
If we fully follow Christ, we can become joint-heirs with Him (Romans 8:14-18), becoming like him (1 John 3:2) by putting on the divine nature (2 Peter 1: 4-10). Such Christ-centered beings are sons and daughters of God (Acts 17:28; Heb. 12:9) who can become the kind of beings that Christ called “gods” in John 10:34. In 1 Corinthians 8:5,6, Paul notes that there are many gods (in the small “g” sense), but these are not beings that we worship, for to us, there is only one God, the Eternal Father. We believe that there may be and will be many resurrected beings who have become joint-heirs with Christ and can thus be called “gods,” but they are not our Savior, our Creator, our Lord, and our God. To us, there is and always will be but one God, that Being who is properly called the “God of gods” (Deut. 10:17), the Almighty God, even Elohim, the Eternal Father. We will always worship and follow Him. A son growing up to be more like his father in no way detracts from the father or weakens their relationship - but can add to the joy and glory of the father. Indeed, helping that to happen is what being a good father is all about. There is a reason why God’s most preferred title seems to be “Father.”

Critics abhor our doctrines on this issue and claim that we are polytheistic. It is true that we believe the Father and the Son are separate beings, but they are one and comprise, with the Holy Ghost, one united Godhead. I consider myself a monotheist, a worshiper of the one true God. Rejecting the “one in substance” concept of post-biblical creeds does not make me a polytheist, in my opinion.

 

[PRmerger]

In the sense that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, He has NO siblings.

Human beings beget human beings.

God begets God, yes?