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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Hi Todd – spirit and matter refer to two different realities.
Read Theology for Beginners by Frank J. Sheed. ($7.41)
amazon.com/Theology-Beginners-Francis-Joseph-Sheed/dp/0892831243
Human parents are co-creators with God. Through the process of procreation designed and incorporated into the human body by God, parents bring a child into being. Upon conception, God creates a human soul for that child. The soul is a spirit. God does not create “spirit children.” That’s an invention of Joseph Smith (and perhaps others from whom he may have gotten the idea).
God created Angels. Angels are pure spirits. They are not physically or genetically related to man. They are not “children” at all – ever.
The bare outline of the Trinity:
(1) In the one divine Nature, there are three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
(2) No one of the persons is either of the others, each is wholly himself.
(3) The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.
(4) They are not three Gods but one God.
God is pure Spirit. The three Persons in one God are pure Spirit. One of those Spirits, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God the Son, came to earth and became INCARNATE (became flesh) of the Virgin Mary. Jesus was fully Human and fully Divine. As a human, he was flesh and blood, which his Mother, Mary, gave him. His soul, his spirit, was not human, but divine. He was the God-Man, Almighty God in human form.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church can be found at www.scborromeo.org
Use the search engine to look up Trinity (there are too many entires to type them all); angels, demons; incarnation.
Peace be with you, Jim Dandy
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
What does “begotten” mean in the Mormon language?
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
IOW, angels are humans?It might help to understand that we (Mormons) believe that ‘angel’ is a job description, not a species classification.
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Todd520
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croix_de_fer
Guest
Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers.
Mormons believe St. Michael became Adam then became St. Michael… basically they believe Adam and St. Michael are the same.
Mormons do not believe Hitler, Stalin, Ted Bundy, etc are in Hell, rather they believe they (and people like them) are in the lowest level of Heaven which they believe is a gazillion times better than any great thing Earth can offer.
Mormons believe the only ones in Hell are Satan and the rest of the fallen angels, but nobody else gets condemned to Hell.
Mormons believe other all Mormons faithfully following the words of Joseph Smith will become god’s too in the afterlife.
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dianaiad
Guest
You might want to wait to see what an actual Mormon has to say about what they believe in.
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dianaiad
Guest
Yep.
Whether those humans are spirits (who haven’t been born yet) or resurrected beings, they are still us.
“Angel” means 'messenger." Someone who has a specific message, or task, from God, Generally not mortal.
It is a job description, not a species classification.
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dianaiad
Guest
The same thing it means in Catholic language, I suppose. It means that God the Father is the Father of Jesus, spiritually and physically.
To put it another way, Jesus is the Only Being to Whom the Father contributed DNA (or whatever you want to call it) to enable Mary to bear Him so that He (Jesus) might recieve a mortal body.
Oh, and because I am a cynical, suspicious and paranoid soul, let me cut you off before you go one more step in the direction you are obviously heading. We believe that Mary was a virgin at Jesus birth, and we do NOT believe that God had sex with Mary.
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croix_de_fer
Guest
LDS teaching is as follows:
Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers.
Mormons believe St. Michael became Adam then became St. Michael again… basically they believe Adam and St. Michael are the same.
Mormons do not believe Hitler, Stalin, Ted Bundy, etc are in Hell, rather they believe they (and people like them) are in the lowest level of Heaven which they believe is a gazillion times better than any great thing Earth can offer.
Mormons believe the only beings in Hell are Satan and the rest of the fallen angels, but nobody else gets condemned to Hell.
Mormons believe all Mormons whom faithfully follow the words of Joseph Smith will become god’s too in the afterlife which they believe is the highest level in Heaven (Celestial Kingdom); in fact they believe God was once a man whose god was once a man before becoming a god and so on…
This is what the Mormons believe and LDS teaches it. It cannot be denied.
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croix_de_fer
Guest
Here is just a little of what LDS teaches:
Mormons do NOT worship Christ. They are forbidden to pray to him. All prayer is directed to the Father only, in the name of the Jesus.
Mormons worship God the Father of this world, but they believe there are many gods of other worlds.
Brigham Young taught that the number of gods and worlds is uncountable (Discourses of Brigham Young, 22)
Many Mormons believe Jesus was married and had children.
Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers.
Mormons believe St. Michael became Adam then became St. Michael again… basically they believe Adam and St. Michael are the same.
Mormons do not believe Hitler, Stalin, Ted Bundy, etc are in Hell, rather they believe they (and people like them) are in the lowest level of Heaven which they believe is a gazillion times better than any great thing Earth can offer.
Mormons believe the only beings in Hell are Satan and the rest of the fallen angels, but nobody else gets condemned to Hell.
Mormons believe all Mormons whom faithfully follow the words of Joseph Smith will become god’s too in the afterlife which they believe is the highest level in Heaven (Celestial Kingdom); in fact they believe God was once a man whose god was once a man before becoming a god and so on…
Mormons believe Jesus was half god and half man when he was born on Earth but became a god ONLY after becoming a mortal and going to the afterlife. Mormons believe Jesus is a lesser god than the Father. Again, LDS teaches all faithful Mormons will become gods too and have their own worlds in the afterlife.
Mormons believe: Two thousand years ago, the Heavenly Father looked with favor upon his daughter, the Virgin Mary. He visited her in his flesh-and-bones male body and had sexual intercourse with her. The result was Jesus Christ in his mortal body. Since Mormons say they believe Mary was a virgin when she conceived her son, LDS theologians have had to redefine the definition of “virgin.” They say a virgin is a woman who has not had sex with a mortal man; since God the Father was by then an immortal man, no loss of virginity occurred, though “normal and natural” intercourse took place (Mormon Apostle and Theologian Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, vol. 1, 314; Mormon Doctrine, 546-547).
Orson Pratt, early Mormon apostle and theologian: “The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of husband and wife: Hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father” (The Seer, 158-159).
Much of these beliefs, if not all of it, is rarely introduced to people whom Mormons are “evangelizing” and trying to convert to LDS. They rarely, if ever, bring up this apostasy, heresy and infidelity to potential converts because they know it will repel them. So Mormon “elders” and “sisters” make their best efforts to avoid discussing it… quite simply they try to hide these beliefs before members are “baptized” into their church.
This is what the Mormons believe and LDS teaches it. It cannot be denied.
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PopeBono
Guest
There is a commandment commonly known as thou shalt not lie or bear false witness. Perhaps rather than mingling actual doctrine of the LDS Church with the philosophy of man, you may want to print and read the churches official doctrine on the issue because you are distorting the truth about as bad anyone I have ever seen. official doctrine is printed as published in the name of “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”
I have posted several official doctrines on this board as to what you are speaking of that should clarify most misconceptions you have.
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PRmerger
Guest
Of course we do, Diana.
I was just saying that God begets a God, not a human being. God *creates *a human being.
Are we on the same page here?
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LongJourney
Guest
I am sorry PB, but what croix de fer posted is true. All those observations are teachings of the LDS church. You might do well to look through LDS literature to find them. They are there, even though you don’t believe in them. You can hem and haw, but since they were taught by LDS “prophets,” they are doctrine. You have pledged to follow the prophet. If you don’t believe them, you are a heretic. Once you realize that you are a heretic, everything else will follow.
(Actually, all LDS are heretics from each other, since they all believe in different aspects of the LDS faith. Shhh! S-P-L-I-N-T-E-R)
(Actually, all LDS are heretics from each other, since they all believe in different aspects of the LDS faith. Shhh! S-P-L-I-N-T-E-R)
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PopeBono
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These are distortions of truth but true things can only be 100% true, One of those statements are true and most are out right lies.
The one statement in there we believe to be the truth is Michael and Adam being the same person.
Saying that Mormons do not worship Jesus Christ is an outright lie. Through him and him only can grace be found. We believe in the scripture" I am the way, the truth and the life no man comes to the father but by me." This is why we address our prayers in the name of Jesus Christ. We Call on Christ always.
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LongJourney
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The Mormon Jesus is different from the Catholic Jesus. For instance, research the “Jesus and Satan are brothers” LDS teaching. Further, some LDS are so far from Christianity that that statement still stands. You may be a Christian within Mormonism, but that does not make Mormonism Christian.
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PopeBono
Guest
this is a repost from this same thread that I posted earlier:
LDS official definition of the Devil:
The English word devil in the KJV is used to represent several different words in Greek, i.e., slanderer, demon, and adversary, and Hebrew, i.e., spoiler. The devil is the enemy of righteousness and of those who seek to do the will of God. Literally a spirit son of God, he was at one time “an angel” in authority in the presence of God; however, he rebelled in the premortal life, at which time he persuaded a third of the spirit children of the Father to rebel with him, in opposition to the plan of salvation championed by Jehovah (Jesus Christ). “Thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29: 37). They were cast out of heaven, and were denied the experience of mortal bodies and earth life (Isa. 14: 12-15; Rev. 12: 4-9; 2 Ne. 2: 17; 2 Ne. 9: 8; D&C 29: 36-38; D&C 76: 25-26; D&C 93: 25; Moses 4: 1-4; Abr. 3: 27-28).
Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical teaching that the devil is a reality and that he does strive to lead men and women from the work of God. One of the major techniques of the devil is to cause human beings to think they are following God’s ways, when in reality they are deceived by the devil to follow other paths.
Since the devil and his premortal angels have no physical body of flesh and bones, they often seek to possess the bodies of mortal beings. There are many such instances recorded in scripture (Matt. 9: 32; Matt. 12: 22; Mark 1: 24; Mark 5: 7; Luke 8: 30; Acts 19: 15; cf. Mosiah 3: 6). Such can be evicted by the power of faith in Jesus Christ and the exercise of the holy priesthood. Jesus gave this power to his disciples (Matt. 10: 1; Mark 16: 17; Luke 10: 17; Acts 5: 16; D&C 84: 67).
The devil is called the prince of this world (John 12: 31; John 14: 30; John 16: 11); the adversary (1 Pet. 5: 8); Beelzebub, meaning the prince of the devils (Mark 3: 22); the wicked one (Matt. 13: 38); the enemy (Matt. 13: 39); Lucifer (Isa. 14: 12; D&C 76: 26); Satan (Rev. 12: 9); prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2: 2-3); Perdition (D&C 76: 26); son of the morning (D&C 76: 26-27); that old serpent (Rev. 12: 9; D&C 76: 28); the great dragon (Rev. 12: 7-9); a murderer from the beginning (John 8: 44); a liar from the beginning (D&C 93: 25); and the accuser (Rev. 12: 10).
He is miserable in his situation, and “stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness” (2 Ne. 9: 9). He tries to imitate the work of God by transforming himself nigh unto an angel of light (2 Cor. 11: 12-15; 2 Ne. 9: 9; D&C 128: 20). He is also a worker of miracles, by which he deceives many upon the earth (Rev. 13: 1-15). In fact, the scripture says he deceives the whole world (Rev. 12: 9). He can cite scripture to make his point seem plausible (Matt. 4: 1-11). All of this is his scheme to make man miserable like himself. Protection against the influence of the devil is found by obedience to the commandments and laws of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The message of all the prophets and apostles is that truth, righteousness, and peace shall in the end prevail over error, sin, and war; the faithful shall triumph over all their afflictions and enemies, and shall triumph over the devil. There shall be a complete and lasting victory of righteousness over wickedness on this earth, which will be done by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes we believe that Satan and his followers are fallen sons of Gods as stated above officially by my church.
The misleading statement made is saying that Christ and Satan are Brothers. Statements made like that contain portions of the truth, by that same standard if I was to say don’t listen to LongJourney he is my brother. The reader would assume that you were my actual Brother.
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DennisTate
Guest
Hi PopeBono: I am impressed both by your theories as well as by the fact that you are willing to express your theories without being too worried that you are going to be kicked out and ostracized by your friends and family!
For the record my impression is that the relative number of people within the LDS community who are powerfully guided and led by the Holy Spirit is similar to the percentage of people who are powerfully guided by the Holy Spirit in the Charismatic Catholic Movement. Incidentally I absolutely love the Charismatic Catholic Movement and feel that I might just call myself a member of it one of these years despite my dislike to join a group unless I know that by joining the group I don’t automatically have to be excommunicated within months or a year or so!?
I am fifty one years old and have read the Bible so many times that where I am at theologically, it is hard to imagine that I will ever meet anybody who could convince me to make drastic changes in my basic theology quickly. The only person who could do this is if I were to fall on the floor and meet Jesus/Yahushua in a radical manner as my wife and many of her friends in the Charismatic or Evangelical Movements have experienced.
One of the places where you could research the impression of The Holy Spirit being YHWH the Mother would be the NDE account of Christian Andreason. I will try to dig that one up for you as soon as I can find it.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Todd is giving us the milk here… (or else he really doesn’t know)
In Mormonism, angels are either human spirits not yet born into physical bodies (a.k.a. pre-existent humans) or resurrected humans. Joseph Smith taught that a spirit is in the same shape and form as a man, with all of the body parts, only made of more pure matter.
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PopeBono
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Dennis Thank you for your kindness. I will take a read of your blog that you sent me and hope to learn and grow from it. Organized religion can be a difficult thing as you are subjected to the human nature of man within these organizations and yet have your own personal relationship in how God has spoken to you. It can be very conflicting to have someone tell you something that is contradictory to your own personal revelations. That being said I do believe there is order in all things and for that reason organization is good. I believe through prayerful pondering one can resolve these conflicts with peace. I am not well read about the different types or levels within the Catholic Church but I do know that Catholics who are true to their faith are among the best on this earth and that it would serve you well if you so desired to join.
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