Question for Muslim women

[Sister_Amy]

So could I write a book today (or use the Book of Mormon) and claim that anything that is in the quran that contradicts it is wrong? This a bold claim that muslims make especially in light of the pedigree of the New Testament and clear, unbroken thread of Catholic Tradition in the early church. Does islam have any proof that the NT/OT is corrupt other than “the quran says so”. This is not evidence and if this is all you have then good luck to you.

Why is it not evidence? It is the strongest evidence for me. But let me refer you to a book if you’re interested, “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Ehrman.

Have any non-muslims come across any books that describe the Christian Heresies that are present in Islam and trace their development into what became islam?

This is a common claim among Catholics, that Islam is made up of Christian Heresies. Kinda miraculous really if somehow a man living in the middle of the desert who couldn’t even read, would be an expert on Christian heresies. And Judaism and embryology and I could go on.

There is actually 20% of the quran that is unintelligible

Unintelligible to whom? Hehe.

and tens of thousands of pages of commentary have been written on these verses trying to explain what they mean.

Commentary has been written on the entire Qur’an, by many many many scholars, going back to the Companions of Muhammad himself. Written on the “verses” to explain and elaborate their meaning. Doesn’t mean they’re unintelligible. I’m curious which verses you are claiming to be unintelligible, though.

There is a book called “The Syro-Aramaic Reading Of The Koran” (amazon.com/Syro-Aram%C3%A4ische-Lesart-Beitrag-Entschl%C3%BCsselung-Koransprache/dp/3860932748/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204338697&sr=8-1) which makers the assertion that these portions of the quran are syriac phrases (syriac was spoken with arabic by caravans) transcribed with arabic charactersand that some portions of the quran come from a heretical syriac lectionary. This and the grammatical errors in the quran seem to point to a less than perfect literal transcription of the word of God.

I’m curious what verses you’re talking about, or what phrases. I’m even more curious why the Arab scholars who have memorized and translated the Qur’an aren’t aware of this. Oh yeah, there are no grammatical errors in the Qur’an. Nice try though.

 

[ralphinal]

Just about everything there I could apply to most previous Christian countries

(Hint:Jan Hus’s right to freedom of religion was not respected by the Church>.>)

As a rule, I apply modern rules to modern nations. Freedom of religion and freedom of assembly. That is why I do not bring up any past Muslim nations. Further, the claim that Islam allows freedom of religion is the actual focal point of my post. It seems that it does as long as you choose to become and remain Muslim.

Sooner or later, some Christian nation is going to pull some of that kind of junk. I will say the same thing then, too.

 

[planten]

As a rule, I apply modern rules to modern nations. Freedom of religion and freedom of assembly. That is why I do not bring up any past Muslim nations. Further, the claim that Islam allows freedom of religion is the actual focal point of my post. It seems that it does as long as you choose to become and remain Muslim.

Sooner or later, some Christian nation is going to pull some of that kind of junk. I will say the same thing then, too.

It is quite clear. You are saying that because the christianity has never had a good history. That is why you want to forget your past. But that is not a good thing. The past is stuck with the present for the sake of discussions.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

Let’s get back on track folks.

Thanks!

God bless-

Rachel

 

[ralphinal]

It is quite clear. You are saying that because the christianity has never had a good history. That is why you want to forget your past. But that is not a good thing. The past is stuck with the present for the sake of discussions.

I will create a new thread for this discussion

 

[AgnosTheist]

I just want to point out that they don’t allow Muslims to worship freely either.

In some places this is true, and in those places it’s often the case that the people aren’t even allowed to teach Islam.

I don’t know why. I think it’s because the rulers of those countries feel threatened. Let me give you an example. There was a teacher at a major university in Saudi Arabia, who was invited there to teach.

Saudi Arabia is all about Islam. They cant tolerate other religions. And they cant tolerate heretical teachings about Islam. Thats why the teacher in your example got the boot.

 

[planten]

I will create a new thread for this discussion

Let us get back on tracks please. It is no use asking the Muslim women about their healthy status in religion when the bible is blaming all the ladies for their fault of betraying Adam. The Quran does not blame Eve. That is one good point for all the ladies of the world from Islam.

I feel that there is no law, good or bad in the bible, about ladies, no details at all. So it is difficult to compare the behaviour of religions to ladies, that is church versus Islam. Islam has given very good status to the ladies. Islam has given the right to women to hold property.

The prophet of Islam said " The paradise is under the feet of the mothers". Now please bring one sentence from the bible which should equal or supercede that good statement. Thanks. Welcome.

 

[ralphinal]

Let us get back on tracks please. It is no use asking the Muslim women about their healthy status in religion when the bible is blaming all the ladies for their fault of betraying Adam. The Quran does not blame Eve. That is one good point for all the ladies of the world from Islam.

I feel that there is no law, good or bad in the bible, about ladies, no details at all. So it is difficult to compare the behaviour of religions to ladies, that is church versus Islam. Islam has given very good status to the ladies. Islam has given the right to women to hold property.

The prophet of Islam said " The paradise is under the feet of the mothers". Now please bring one sentence from the bible which should equal or supercede that good statement. Thanks. Welcome.

Well, there is a commandment from God about honoring your father and mother. Paul tells us that men should love their wives as Christ did the Church. In other words, with all of their being, willing to die for them.

If Islam is so good to women, why are so many Muslim nations so mysoginitic? Why is there the level of violence against women despite Islam? Honor Killings? Female Genetal Mutilation? Women not having the right to drive? I can go on.

No, either Islam is good to women and unable to change cultures or Islam is not good to women and the culture show it.

 

[Booklover]

Muhammad as misogynist.

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

Saudi Arabia is all about Islam. They cant tolerate other religions. And they cant tolerate heretical teachings about Islam. Thats why the teacher in your example got the boot.

Saudi Arabia can’t tolerate other religions? Saudi Arabia is a funny country. But the teacher was in SUDAN, not Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia lets more people in from other nationalities every year than any other country. They have problems with it, so many people coming in every year.

Non-Muslims come in to Saudi Arabia and work in a variety of industries. It is well known, that Christians from the USA and from the Philippines live and work in KSA. Unfortunately they aren’t allowed to practice their religion. I’ve heard stories of people having their Bibles taken from them at customs. It’s not right. I don’t know why the Saudis do it but I’m telling you it’s not right.

But the teacher was in the SUDAN. And there was nothing heretical about what she did.

I don’t need to defend stupidity.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Was Muhammad a misogynist?

HMM… He said

The best of you are the best to their womenfolk.

Not just wives. But best to their wives, mothers, daughters, aunts, sisters and all women around them.

 

[AgnosTheist]

But the teacher was in the SUDAN. And there was nothing heretical about what she did.

Isnt Egypt a little more open minded than Sudan? But there was a news a couple of years ago about a Professor who made some heretically percieved suggestions to his students. And the students picked him up and threw him out the window.

 

[txsoldier94]

I’m going to put in my 2 cents…

Sister Amy, if Islam is supposed to be so approving of its female devotees – why are women so abused in Muslim countries? Please do not quote anything from the Quran to say that they are not.

I have seen it. I have smelled the charred flesh of a girl whose only crime was to reach for food with her left hand, and had burning oil poured on her. I have seen…too much…

So why? Why, when your prophet says that the best among you are the women…why are they treated like property and sold to “husbands” who treat them as semi-human baby factories? Why are the ones that cannot be married off harvested for their organs? Maybe that was a one time thing in far off Farah, Afghanistan…but then again, maybe it wasn’t.

So please, please explain this discrepancy between the words of your beloved prophet and the works of his followers. Because me, I just don’t get it.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Isnt Egypt a little more open minded than Sudan? But there was a news a couple of years ago about a Professor who made some heretically percieved suggestions to his students. And the students picked him up and threw him out the window.

Was I supposed to be there to catch him? I’m not sure why you brought this up.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’m going to put in my 2 cents…

Sister Amy, if Islam is supposed to be so approving of its female devotees – why are women so abused in Muslim countries? Please do not quote anything from the Quran to say that they are not.

Women are abused EVERYWHERE in the world. Everywhere. Has nothing to do with religion.

I have seen it. I have smelled the charred flesh of a girl whose only crime was to reach for food with her left hand, and had burning oil poured on her. I have seen…too much…

Islamically, there is no punishment for theft if the people aren’t able to feed themselves and are stealing for food.

So why? Why, when your prophet says that the best among you are the women…why are they treated like property and sold to “husbands”?

Women are NOT property–there is no Islamic teaching for this. Women cannot be bought or sold. When a woman is married, she has the choice to refuse the marriage. If she accepts, there is a sum of money paid TO HER! That is according to Islam.

Why are the ones that cannot be married off harvested for their organs? Maybe that was a one time thing in far off Farah, Afghanistan…but then again, maybe it wasn’t.

That is absolutely disgusting.

So please, please explain this discrepancy between the words of your beloved prophet and the works of his followers. Because me, I just don’t get it.

1. It is the nature of men to abuse women. Men abuse women all over the world. Even in the United States, they are sold into virtual slavery as child prostitutes. Even in the United States women suffer beatings from their husbands. Women are abused EVERYWHERE.
2. Islam tries correct this problem, that women are abused and oppressed. It gives women rights and protections.
3. Some people claim to be Muslim and yet maintain tribal customs (which are contradictory to Islam and oppressive to women!).

 

[AgnosTheist]

Was I supposed to be there to catch him? I’m not sure why you brought this up.

Just a reminder that in the muslim world- heretical views could earn someone the boot.

There is just too much religious intolerance in the muslim world, compared to everyone else. Dont you agree? If you do, then what is your explanation for it?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Just a reminder that in the muslim world- heretical views could earn someone the boot.

Ah. Imagine socialist views in 1950’s America. Witch hunt. It’s not very sophisticated–from Muslims or Republicans.

There is just too much religious intolerance in the muslim world, compared to everyone else. Dont you agree? If you do, then what is your explanation for it?

I think India is a very religiously tolerant place. Hinduism is different in different places, and Indians also practice Buddhism, Jainism, Islam, Christianity etc.

In the Western world, it seems that religious tolerance only happens due to religious suppression. I.E. I will tolerate your religion as long as I can pretend you/it doesn’t exist.

I can’t really explain religious intolerance–from Catholics, from Muslims, or from anyone else. However, I do view it as a phenomenom divorced entirely from the religion itself.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Ah. Imagine socialist views in 1950’s America. Witch hunt. It’s not very sophisticated–from Muslims or Republicans.

i’m sure youll find instances in the non-muslim world every once in a while. However in the muslim world there seem to be a little bit more of a pattern. Do you know Rashad Khalifa? Thought he was safe in the West. But he still got murdered for his heretical views. As far as Japan, a professor was murdered for expressing support to the Satanic verses. JAPAN! how many muslims are in there??? The guts!

In the Western world, it seems that religious tolerance only happens due to religious suppression. I.E. I will tolerate your religion as long as I can pretend you/it doesn’t exist.

“Religious Suppression” or whatever you call it, or however you interpret it, is something that the muslim world needs to learn. Right?

I can’t really explain religious intolerance–from Catholics, from Muslims, or from anyone else. However, I do view it as a phenomenom divorced entirely from the religion itself.

I can explain it why there is some measure of intolerance in every religion. But the fact that its much more common in the muslim world, thats what I want to hear from you. Any ideas?

 

[Sister_Amy]

i’m sure youll find instances in the non-muslim world every once in a while. However in the muslim world there seem to be a little bit more of a pattern. Do you know Rashad Khalifa? Thought he was safe in the West. But he still got murdered for his heretical views. As far as Japan, a professor was murdered for expressing support to the Satanic verses. JAPAN! how many muslims are in there??? The guts!

My fiance met the guy, his parents had dinner with him.

“Religious Suppression” or whatever you call it, or however you interpret it, is something that the muslim world needs to learn. Right?

Well, a lot of people dont like for their religion to be “suppressed.” I.e., no “Christmas party” but have a “holiday party.” They want to see a nativity scene instead of Rudolph. It’s more secularism creeping in, to force people to get along.

I’d rather people follow their religious teachings of tolerance and use that to get along.

I can explain it why there is some measure of intolerance in every religion. But the fact that its much more common in the muslim world, thats what I want to hear from you. Any ideas?

Lack of education? General ignorance as to religious (or civilized) principles?

 

[planten]

Well, there is a commandment from God about honoring your father and mother. Paul tells us that men should love their wives as Christ did the Church. In other words, with all of their being, willing to die for them.

If Islam is so good to women, why are so many Muslim nations so mysoginitic? Why is there the level of violence against women despite Islam? Honor Killings? Female Genetal Mutilation? Women not having the right to drive? I can go on.

No, either Islam is good to women and unable to change cultures or Islam is not good to women and the culture show it.

Thanks ralphinal, please keep paul out and away from the discussion. He is nobody in religion when you have Jesus. From where did you get that commandment to honor the father and the mother? Please quote.

Islam is not only good to women but it is good to all mankind. Even good for the animalkind too. If the Muslims have forgotten the message now, just like the christians forgot and lost the message after 300 A.D. then no one should blame islam. I do not blame Jesus or his real teachings.

The muslims are suffering due to not understanding the real teachings of Islam now. Had they been on the right lines of Islam then you would not have seen them being beaten. They would have lived a good peaceful life of honor. Presently, the Muslims are exactly the same as the Jews of the time of Jesus. I hope that will explain everything to you.