Question for Muslim women

[txsoldier94]

I cover my hair.

I think it’s a good thread, too. Or it started out good… it was good until people started trying to insult the participants (i.e., Muslim women.)

There is only one country where Muslim women can’t drive–and it’s not because of Shari’ah, unfortunately they have a cultural problem with it. In the same country women can’t vote, but neither can men. It’s a monarchy. And Rick, I already answered Agnos’s post, if you would just look closely.

Never once did I see a woman driving in Afghanistan.

It might be legal, but it is not allowed.

Mik

 

[Sister_Amy]

Never once did I see a woman driving in Afghanistan.

It might be legal, but it is not allowed.

Mik

Then that makes , so far, two countries. Yet there is no Islamic basis for that prohibition.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’d like to hear treatment of Muslim women straight from the cradle Muslim women, not the converts.

Big difference.

Seems there isn’t any

I know why ! :newidea:

Converts are what, not real Muslims to you? Do you feel the same way about Catholic converts? That they aren’t real? Trust me, you will find the same answers, across the board. I challenge you to go to a mosque, find a “from the cradle” Muslimah and ask her your questions. You will find the same answers. No difference.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I have stayed out of this for a while, waiting to see how the thread went. I must now point out a few things.

1. For most Westerners, we cannot see a difference between Islam and Islamic states. To us, Muslim women are not given fair treatment in most Muslim nations, and we see it as a reflection on Islam. After all, these people supposidly practice Shiara law.
2. Many of us would call polygamy unfair to women. It creates a system where the purpose of a woman is to please her man in some form, meaning that he can get more help if one is not enough. We do not see women allowed to get more men if the husband is not satisfactory.
3. Culturally, the west has different views about what is fair and ethical treatment, many of which are not based on religion. We see women as being equal to men as witnesses in courts. We see that rape can exist within a marriage between a husband and wife. We see that women can work outside of the home, vote, and drive cars. It is hard to see these ideals supported in Islam.
4. The old Jewish law did set forth inheritance laws for women. The New Testement never spoke on it one way or another. In other words, it is not important to salvation how a dead man’s stuff is divided.
5. If God created Woman to be a help-mate to man, and God created Woman for Man, then what God has joined, let no man put asunder. Jesus spoke against divorce of any kind because we should be able to remain faithful, love and forgive each other if God is with us. As Jesus said, you are allowed divorce because your hearts are hard.
6. When I look at Islam, I see women as some form of object. Why? THe Hadiths promising women in paradise for those who make it. Why are women a reward? Are women rewarded with men in paradise?

Would you like me to respond to this, or did you just need to get it out of your system? Let me see if I can do one-sentence each…

1. Shari’ah law applies to rulers and men and women and everyone, and until a government applies it on itself, what it subjects the people to cannot be called Shari’ah.
2. Some Muslim women find polygamy against their tastes as well, but rather than thinking of it as a bonus for men, it is in fact a greater responsibility for a man, and an opportunity for a woman to have someone take care of her and her children instead of having to support them alone; on the other hand, if a man is unsatisfied with his wife usually a second wife will not solve the problem and if the woman is unsatisfied with her husband sexually, financially, emotionally, she is entitled to a divorce under Islamic law.
3. Men and women are equal witnesses in courts–I’m not sure whoever started saying otherwise–but the Qur’an described witnesses of A TRANSACTION, and women were not as familiar with the transactions so witnesses needed to be either two men or a man and two women, and if one man and one woman had died and there was a dispute over the transaction later on, the testimony of ONE WOMAN ONLY would be enough in court, as is the testimony of ONE WOMAN on many many many other issues the same as a man’s.
4. The Qur’an guarantees inheritance for women and relatives, so that one family member cannot oppress another in this way, and if a man dies leaving only a brother and a daughter, each will get HALF of the inheritance, because a person’s wealth often causes disputes among the family after his death, but Islam resolves the issue entirely by stipulating amounts which are fair to all parties.
5. Of course in Islam, the best course of action in a marriage is forgiveness and resolution of conflict–not divorce–but sometimes a couple is poorly suited and divorce is given as an option for the man and the woman to leave the marriage if they are unsatisfied. And I just have to add, it is NOT an Islamic teaching that women were created as a “help-mate” to man, and I as a woman find that to be a degrading Judeo-Christian teaching.
6. The Ahadith (plural of hadith) describing Paradise are many, as are the verses (ayaat) in the Qur’an, and only a few talk about women–Paradise is a reward for men and for women and in some cases yes, women are promised men as part of their reward in Paradise.

 

[ralphinal]

Would you like me to respond to this, or did you just need to get it out of your system? Let me see if I can do one-sentence each…

1. Shari’ah law applies to rulers and men and women and everyone, and until a government applies it on itself, what it subjects the people to cannot be called Shari’ah.
2. Some Muslim women find polygamy against their tastes as well, but rather than thinking of it as a bonus for men, it is in fact a greater responsibility for a man, and an opportunity for a woman to have someone take care of her and her children instead of having to support them alone; on the other hand, if a man is unsatisfied with his wife usually a second wife will not solve the problem and if the woman is unsatisfied with her husband sexually, financially, emotionally, she is entitled to a divorce under Islamic law.
3. Men and women are equal witnesses in courts–I’m not sure whoever started saying otherwise–but the Qur’an described witnesses of A TRANSACTION, and women were not as familiar with the transactions so witnesses needed to be either two men or a man and two women, and if one man and one woman had died and there was a dispute over the transaction later on, the testimony of ONE WOMAN ONLY would be enough in court, as is the testimony of ONE WOMAN on many many many other issues the same as a man’s.
4. The Qur’an guarantees inheritance for women and relatives, so that one family member cannot oppress another in this way, and if a man dies leaving only a brother and a daughter, each will get HALF of the inheritance, because a person’s wealth often causes disputes among the family after his death, but Islam resolves the issue entirely by stipulating amounts which are fair to all parties.
5. Of course in Islam, the best course of action in a marriage is forgiveness and resolution of conflict–not divorce–but sometimes a couple is poorly suited and divorce is given as an option for the man and the woman to leave the marriage if they are unsatisfied. And I just have to add, it is NOT an Islamic teaching that women were created as a “help-mate” to man, and I as a woman find that to be a degrading Judeo-Christian teaching.
6. The Ahadith (plural of hadith) describing Paradise are many, as are the verses (ayaat) in the Qur’an, and only a few talk about women–Paradise is a reward for men and for women and in some cases yes, women are promised men as part of their reward in Paradise.

I thank you for your answers. If I may respond to some

1. Understandable, but I guess that as many of these countries will never correctly follow the laws, then they will never truly follow the laws. Too much corruption in the world.
2. But why is polygamy allowed? What is the rational given in the Koran? If it is the supporting of women and children, then only widows and divorced women should be allowed as second and so on wives.
3. Ok. I did not know it applied to transactions. So, a woman’s word in a rape case is enough to prosecute a man or are witnesses needed?
4. That is fine, too. I still hold by the statement that salvation does not depend on the division of some dead dude’s property, so it need not be discussed in a church.
5. Is it any more degrading to be a help-mate than a women in Saudi Arabia or Afganistan during the Taliban? A help mate does not mean slave or servant, it means someone to assist him in surviving. A partner in the journey through life.
6. Why are they promised to men but men are not promised to women? Further, if one wanted to, one could take issue with the whole virgin thing, but I understand that is a misrepresentation of the actual teaching.

 

[dessert]

I cover my hair.

I think it’s a good thread, too. Or it started out good… it was good until people started trying to insult the participants (i.e., Muslim women.)

There is only one country where Muslim women can’t drive–and it’s not because of Shari’ah, unfortunately they have a cultural problem with it. In the same country women can’t vote, but neither can men. It’s a monarchy. And Rick, I already answered Agnos’s post, if you would just look closely.

Are you a muslim?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes of course I am Muslim.

 

[dessert]

Yes of course I am Muslim.

Ok I didn’t see it in your profile but it sounds like from your posts I thought maybe you just knew a lot.
How come the man had to come on and validate the women’s statements?

 

[Booklover]

Yes women do the same prayers as men, we pray 5 times a day and in the same manner as the men do. There are some things that are different for men and women, such as it is good for us to pray in the home and not necessary for us to pray in congregation (especially if we have small children), but we can pray in congregation as well. We can’t pray when we’re on our periods, etc.

Peace

Why would having a period, which is a bodily function that God created for women, make it not permissible for them to pray?

Vickie

 

[dessert]

Why would having a period, which is a bodily function that God created for women, make it not permissible for them to pray?

Vickie

I think this is true that in many religions that the women are not considered pure when they are menstruating. So I suppose that they feel God will not hear them. It may have something to do with the blood that is present ly coming out of them conflicts with the blood of Jesus.

 

[planten]

Ok I didn’t see it in your profile but it sounds like from your posts I thought maybe you just knew a lot.
How come the man had to come on and validate the women’s statements?

If the starter or the participants in this thread are all ladies then it would not be fair for any gentleman to indulge. But nobody knows who is posting here and creating an adverse situation for the Muslim ladies.

There is no harm if some one seconds a post or proposal. It is done every where. Next, may I say that there is not going to be any sex in Paradise. I hope not. The soul has no gender, masculine or Faminine.

Paradise is under the feet of the Mothers. Hadith: told by the prophet Muhammad ]

 

[Booklover]

I think this is true that in many religions that the women are not considered pure when they are menstruating. So I suppose that they feel God will not hear them. It may have something to do with the blood that is present ly coming out of them conflicts with the blood of Jesus.

Whatever reason, it’s unfair to claim that a woman cannot pray because she’s menstruating.

Vickie

 

[dessert]

If the starter or the participants in this thread are all ladies then it would not be fair for any gentleman to indulge. But nobody knows who is posting here and creating an adverse situation for the Muslim ladies.

There is no harm if some one seconds a post or proposal. It is done every where. Next, may I say that there is not going to be any sex in Paradise. I hope not. The soul has no gender, masculine or Faminine.

Paradise is under the feet of the Mothers. Hadith: told by the prophet Muhammad ]

True not in heaven but we are seperate bodies here on earth, sorry I did not mean to be antagonistic toward anyone, my appologies. Anyone may post. I’m very sorry!

 

[AgnosTheist]

but rather than thinking of it as a bonus for men, it is in fact a greater responsibility for a man

For wealthy men, 4 attractives wives is a heck more of a bonus than a responsibility.

and an opportunity for a woman to have someone take care of her and her children instead of having to support them alone;

what is more of an opportunity?

a. a man that she has to share with 3 other women?

b. a man that she has all for herself?

on the other hand, if a man is unsatisfied with his wife usually a second wife will not solve the problem

thats what you think

1. The Qur’an guarantees inheritance for women and relatives, so that one family member cannot oppress another in this way, and if a man dies leaving only a brother and a daughter, each will get HALF of the inheritance, because a person’s wealth often causes disputes among the family after his death, but Islam resolves the issue entirely by stipulating amounts which are fair to all parties.

the issue here is that daughters only get half of what their brothers get.

Paradise is a reward for men and for women and in some cases yes, women are promised men as part of their reward in Paradise.

how many men does each woman get in the islamic paradise?

 

[dessert]

Whatever reason, it’s unfair to claim that a woman cannot pray because she’s menstruating.

Vickie

Yes I agree, I was just stating what I think is their reasoning.

" Man and woman are both one and the same dignity ‘in the image of God’.In thier "being-man and “being -woman”, they reflect the Creator’s wisdom and goodness.
from our cathechism CCC # 369

 

[Booklover]

That treachury during the battle of the trench was very dangerous for the Muslims. The Jews betrayed the muslims during the war and went against their treaty. They were to be punished. A judge was appointed by the Jews and agreed upon by the Jews that they will respect his decision. That Judge gave the verdict. Please read history of the event.

The Battle of the Trench in 627 saw a confederation of Meccans and their allies marching north to Medina. They were fed up with the prophet’s continual harassment of their trade. But Muhammad had dug trenches around Medina to neutralize Mecca’s superior cavalry. Wisely, the Muslims never confronted the enemy head on. After about a month, the attackers returned south, no side suffering serious losses. So Muhammad’s power, though always growing, increases exponentially in Medina, even more so than after the Battle of Badr in 624.

(12) In fact, Muhammad is so powerful that shortly after the Battle of the Trench he lays seize to Jewish strongholds in Medina, captures them, decapitates 600 male Jews of the Qurayzah tribe, enslaves their woman and children, though he keeps a beautiful Jewess for himself, and confiscates all of their property, which was considerable (Sura 33:25-27). It is sometimes argued that this tribe broke a treaty of neutrality, or a pro-Jewish Muslim made the final decision, not Muhammad. In reply, however, Muhammad could have called off the “trial” at any time. Plus, if we assume that they really did break a treaty (and that’s a big assumption), could not Muhammad have punished only the leaders? And did all the men have to be slaughtered, and did all the women and children have to be enslaved and sold? Muhammad’s reaction was excessive and therefore unjust.

answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/insult_responses.htm

It is not good to talk about Jesus here because he did not do anything at all and he could not do anything. His own people betrayed him, did not accept him, rejected him, humilated him, crucified him… What to say of him ! We muslims love Jesus too and we cannot discuss the things as the christians believe them. They are not true things.

You claim to love Jesus and make disparaging remarks about him. Read the whole article above to compare how Jesus and Muhammad reacted to insults.

Vickie

 

[cathgal]

Converts are what, not real Muslims to you? Do you feel the same way about Catholic converts? That they aren’t real? Trust me, you will find the same answers, across the board. I challenge you to go to a mosque, find a “from the cradle” Muslimah and ask her your questions. You will find the same answers. No difference.

You weren’t born in a Muslim country were you?

You weren’t raised in a Muslim family were you?

You’re not married to a Muslim man are you?

I’m pretty sure the status of Muslim women who answer ‘yes’ to all these questions is totally different from ones whose answers are ‘no’

Catholic convert is not comparable to Muslim convert.

It’s the teaching of the faith that says it all. Plain and simple.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I’m a Muslimah. I love Islam and everything it encompasses. I used to be a Lutheran, I converted to Islam after 9 years studying it… What led me to Islam was the bible… At about 15 or 16 I was reading it, wanting to be more spiritual and religious, being raised church wasn’t something we frequented and I really didn’t know much about my own religion… I saw the movie the prince of egypt and was told it was true from the bible, and I didn’t even know… so this led me to read the Bible… in the Bible I found some inconsistencies that didn’t make sense to me… namely the whole Jesus is God, Jesus is the son of God, God is his own Son, etc…

This led me to a book called “A History of God” by Karen Armstrong where I was reading about the 3 major religions and a few others, which led me to the Quran, in which I found the Truth. Several years later I finally took Shahada. Alhamdulillah.

Yes women do the same prayers as men, we pray 5 times a day and in the same manner as the men do. There are some things that are different for men and women, such as it is good for us to pray in the home and not necessary for us to pray in congregation (especially if we have small children), but we can pray in congregation as well. We can’t pray when we’re on our periods, etc.

There is nothing within Islam about women that bothers me. I live my life according to the Quran and the Sunnah, and there is no part of my deen which I reject or hold higher. I can’t say ‘this is more important than that’… I just try to live my life according to the Quran and the Sunnah and try to please my Lord and bring myself closer to him through ibadah (worship).

Peace

I could say the same thing highlighted above except substituting Church and Bible for Quran and Sunnah. I’m Catholic and could never leave the church because I love Jesus, but I identify with your feelings toward God.

In your search for God, did you consider Catholicism or Judaism? You found confusion in reading the Bible because you did not have the Church to explain what was confusing to you. In the Quran, didn’t you find some confusing parts that a Muslim had to explain?

Do you live in an Islamic country? (I didn’t pull up your profile and can’t do it while posting). If not, do you ever feel that people are prejudiced against you for being Muslim (wearing the veil would clearly identify you.)? I have never had the opportunity to speak to a Muslim woman (Muslima?) and I find it interesting.

What did your family feel about you converting?

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

I believed then as I do now that men are not capable of creating laws for governing mankind that are perfectly fair or just for all groups of people, but rather that only God who created us has that authority. And Muslims have that, in the Qur’an.

Let me ask you this… is it fair for non-Muslims to have to follow Sharia law? Is it fair for women not to be able to drive, attend the same schools as men, or to not be able to leave the house with a man of the household or a headcovering? These western forms of Islam are watered down versions, and are spoon fed to a western mindset (just the same as watered down catechesis has affected the Catholic / Christian mindset and secularized our world more than it already is).

Sure, I will agree with you that there are some laws that are Eternal, and unchangeable, but also in our modern society there are laws and regulations that we need that absolutely would not have made any sense to a man of Muhammad’s time. The difference between Christianity and Islam is that we view the Bible as a rule to live by, and from it we get our western form of laws and courts, but we realize that there are some topics of the age the laws of the Bible just won’t cover and how the world has changed since the time that it was written. The laws of the Bible are not liquid, whereas secular laws are liquid. Secular laws don’t all need to be followed for salvation to be kept by the Christian believer. Is there a guideline in the Quran for laws such as these?

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I know the story of Banu Qurayzah. And you know Wikipedia.

Jesus, peace be upon him, was never in charge of ruling a city and protecting its inhabitants. I don’t mean that with any disrespect at all, but you have in Jesus pbuh only three years of preaching. Muhammad, pbuh preached for 13 years, and ruled a city as statesman and general for 10 more–while still preaching. Just some food for thought.

I do like a woman who can intelligently defend what she believes, even if I don’t accept those beliefs. True, Jesus only preached for a short time but he left an organized group of followers who clearly understood his teachings and were dedicated to spreading them peacefully. Jesus clearly said his kingdom is not of this world, in the world but not of it. It transcends all geographic, cultural, and political boundaries. It is to unite all who accept it with God and each other. It is to empower people to overcome their own sins and live a life that pleases God.

I have several other questions:

If you don’t live in a Muslim country, have you experienced prejudice or suspicion because of being Muslim, wearing the veil, public fear of terrorists, etc?

Do you know if members of the Nation of Islam in the US are considered by other Muslims to be true Muslims? (I don’t know one way or the other, no ax to grind, just curious.)

Based on Islamic teachings, can Muslims peacefully live with those of other faiths in a country like the US which in its constitution forbids having a national religion?

I like this thread. I think it’s possible to learn what others feel and believe and to disagree without beating them over the head.