Question for Muslim!!

[planten]

I’m waiting for these answers too.

Wina, please do not take up the points from an atheist. We cannot argue with any atheist. We always leave the matters of an Atheist on this catholic forum to the qualified catholics who may look after the atheists.

Other matters which you have asked have been replied reasonably. You and I cannot decide about constant continued prayers.It is God who decides and guides. Hygene and cleanliness is a preogative for any prayer. You may disagree to that. You may say that cleanliness is not necessary for prayers. But we will disagree with you.

God is Holy. It is necessary that a person who is praying, is approaching God, should be physically clean. That will make his heart and thoughts also clean. You have tried to avoid the Jewish laws. I request you to forget about the Jewish laws but rather remember Jesus who was a Jew. He lived a perfect life and practiced the Jewish law in a good way with heart and soul.

Do you think that Jesus or his mother did anything against the pure law of the Jews at any time, except that he improved upon those laws of hygene etc? Mary and Jesus were subject to those laws of the OT. If Jesus and his disciples abided by their laws of Hygene then why are you trying to ignore them.

I feel that you had no way of escape. That is why you said you were not a Jew and did not care for the laws of the Jews. We Muslims still respect those laws of the Jews and if we have similar laws as they had then we are better off.

So Wina, if you do not agree to the laws given by God to Muslims and the laws given by God to Jews, then it would be better if you tried to explain your (christian) diversions in the matters of cleanliness etc. Could you present anything from Jesus to support your ideas of uncleanliness during prayers? Have you got anything to support you from the bibleNT? From Jesus?

I feel that our Muslim men and women keep ourselves clean during prayers and we prostrate the same as Jesus used to do. We need not present any explanations for things that were done by Jews and Jewess ladies and Mary and Jesus.

Thanks for asking. WE cannot explain any more than what is done in good faith for you now. If there is a relaxation given or restriction placed by God on men or women about prayers, nobody can question them. Otherwise all the good wise steps mentioned in the bibleOT which is a good part of your bible will be open to all types of questioning.

 

[staffsgt7]

Thanks for the notice about the out right prejudice behavior from you about atheists. Once again, I can ‘feeeel’ the love.

While in one breath you keep preaching tolerance, you are intolerant.

 

[elwill]

So you said that prayer is disturbing women? I don’t get it because prayer should be performed based what is in the heart. Noone can ask or force someone to pray or not to pray.

may be theire are some confusion here wina
i agree with you that prayer performed based on what is in the heart
but actually , it’s not the prayer which we refere to in this subject , we refere to prayer of **salaht **

salaht is the only activity which muslims should to perform while they are clean .
any other type of prayers can be performed anytime and any place and within any status

 

[elwill]

As you said that it’s natural status happens to the human being, so why it’s said unclean?
I don’t get it.

and that’s why i said to you that it dosn’t mean any offenses for anyone

i think that the language here made a problem . in our arabic languge there are many arabic words can be translated to “unclean” , however each word have specific meaning in our culture

that’s why i told you that the status of your friend called " najasah"
this is islamic concept which refere to specific status : in the period and ejaculation and sexual intercourse . for a muslim to clean himself from najash he must perform “ghusl” before salaht prayer , but still he can do any other type of prayer

 

[wina]

Wina, please do not take up the points from an atheist. We cannot argue with any atheist. We always leave the matters of an Atheist on this catholic forum to the qualified catholics who may look after the atheists.

I don’t like to argue and I don’t want to argue, I just want explanation to understand it.

Other matters which you have asked have been replied reasonably. You and I cannot decide about constant continued prayers.It is God who decides and guides. Hygene and cleanliness is a preogative for any prayer. You may disagree to that. You may say that cleanliness is not necessary for prayers. But we will disagree with you.

I don’t say that I don’t agree about cleanliness, I just asked about why when women are in their period will be said impure which women can’t avoid it because it’s their natural thing happen.

God is Holy. It is necessary that a person who is praying, is approaching God, should be physically clean.That will make his heart and thoughts also clean.

I agree that God is Holy. But I don’t agree if you said that physically clean will make his heart and thoughts also clean. Can you explan more about it? on based what reason you said it?

You have tried to avoid the Jewish laws.

I don’t try to avoid Jewish law, but what I want to discuss now is about islam’s law.

I request you to forget about the Jewish laws but rather remember Jesus who was a Jew. He lived a perfect life and practiced the Jewish law in a good way with heart and soul.

you agreed that Jesus lived a prefect life but that’s too bad that many people don’t agree with it that time even Jewish themselves.

Do you think that Jesus or his mother did anything against the pure law of the Jews at any time, except that he improved upon those laws of hygene etc? Mary and Jesus were subject to those laws of the OT. If Jesus and his disciples abided by their laws of Hygene then why are you trying to ignore them.

I feel that you had no way of escape. That is why you said you were not a Jew and did not care for the laws of the Jews. We Muslims still respect those laws of the Jews and if we have similar laws as they had then we are better off.

Planten, here I give you what Jesus taught about cleanliness:

Matthew
Chapter 15
1
1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
2
“Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? 2 They do not wash (their) hands when they eat a meal.”
3
He said to them in reply, “And why do you break the commandment of God 3 for the sake of your tradition?
4
For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.’
5
4 But you say, ‘Whoever says to father or mother, “Any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God,”
6
need not honor his father.’ You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7
Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy about you when he said:
8
’This people honors me with their lips, 5 but their hearts are far from me;
9
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.’”
10
He summoned the crowd and said to them, “Hear and understand.
11
**It is not what enters one’s mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one.” **12
Then his disciples approached and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees took offense when they heard what you said?”
13
He said in reply, 6 “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
14
Let them alone; they are blind guides (of the blind). If a blind person leads a blind person, both will fall into a pit.”
15
Then Peter 7 said to him in reply, “Explain (this) parable to us.”
16
He said to them, “Are even you still without understanding?
17
**Do you not realize that everything that enters the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled into the latrine? 18
But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile.
19
8 For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, unchastity, theft, false witness, blasphemy. **20
These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile.”

So Wina, if you do not agree to the laws given by God to Muslims and the laws given by God to Jews, then it would be better if you tried to explain your (christian) diversions in the matters of cleanliness etc. Could you present anything from Jesus to support your ideas of uncleanliness during prayers? Have you got anything to support you from the bibleNT? From Jesus?

I just gave you one please see and read above

I feel that our Muslim men and women keep ourselves clean during prayers and we prostrate the same as Jesus used to do. We need not present any explanations for things that were done by Jews and Jewess ladies and Mary and Jesus.

Sorry Planten, for this I don’t agree with you at all. Because Jesus has fulfilled Old Testament and Jewish’s law

Thanks for asking. WE cannot explain any more than what is done in good faith for you now. If there is a relaxation given or restriction placed by God on men or women about prayers, nobody can question them. Otherwise all the good wise steps mentioned in the bibleOT which is a good part of your bible will be open to all types of questioning.

To be honest, I don’t expect that you can answer my questions. I will some other muslims who might explan it better than you.

 

[wina]

may be theire are some confusion here wina
i agree with you that prayer performed based on what is in the heart
but actually , it’s not the prayer which we refere to in this subject , we refere to prayer of **salaht **

Could you please tell me the objective of prayer of Salaht? Because I would like to understand why prayer of Salaht is forbidden for women in their period. Because you said you agreed that prayer performed based on what is in the heart. so don’t you agree that it will apply to any kind of prayers?

 

[elwill]

I’m waiting for these answers too.

he mixed everything up , he dosn’t talk about shariah . he just pick up the local laws of some muslims countries , then attached it to shariah

me as a muslim can respond you with reference of teaching of islam , not with reference of laws in some islamic countreis

for example ,no one can give me islamic source which forbided women to not learn or to not drive . the farthest you can do is to say that taliban did that or sudia did that , still no one can back up his openion from quran nor from hadeeth . and if you gave me 10 countries forbidding them i will give you 100 countries dosn’t

beside , you have to realize how his hate for islam blinds him when he talked about honour killing as if it was from shariah and the teaching of islam .
his hatness for islam blinds him to realize that islam against honour killing

 

[wina]

he mixed everything up , he dosn’t talk about shariah . he just pick up the local laws of some muslims countries , then attached it to shariah

me as a muslim can respond you with reference of teaching of islam , not with reference of laws in some islamic countreis

for example ,no one can give me islamic source which forbided women to not learn or to not drive . the farthest you can do is to say that taliban did that or sudia did that , still no one can back up his openion from quran nor from hadeeth . and if you gave me 10 countries forbidding them i will give you 100 countries dosn’t

beside , you have to realize how his hate for islam blinds him when he talked about honour killing as if it was from shariah and the teaching of islam .
his hatness for islam blinds him to realize that islam against honour killing

Hi Elwill,

Yes I can agree with you if your said there is no islamic source which forbided women to not learn or to not drive. Because I know it some but Unfortunately I found some will do it although they don’t live in those countries but they follow it.
You seem that you understand Islam more. So please go back to my questions and tell me.

 

[elwill]

Could you please tell me the objective of prayer of Salaht? Because I would like to understand why prayer of Salaht is forbidden for women in their period. Because you said you agreed that prayer performed based on what is in the heart. so don’t you agree that it will apply to any kind of prayers?

actually not , salaht is different than any other type
Salat takes a special form and content, where both body and soul are harmoniously involved. In salaht , every muscle of the body joins the soul and the mind in the worship and glory of Allah. Prayer is an act of worship. It is a matchless and unprecedented formula of intellectual meditation and spiritual devotion, of moral elevation and physical exercise, all combined.

**Requirements of prayer salaht : **performing of ablution (Wudu), purity of the whole body, clothes and ground used for prayer, dressing properly and having the intention and facing the Qiblah (the direction of the Ka’bah at Mecca).

so their are many requirements we (men and women) should to fulfill before performing this kind of prayer " salaht"
so men or women can’t perform salaht if one of these requirements not fulfilled .
if men have monthly period , they will be forbidden from salat either

 

[Sam_777]

they believe that God created men and women equally but when I asked about it, then they couldn’t answer it.

More on equality between man & woman :

01) Female inheritance is half the male and even less than that in some situations.
(Quran 4:11):
“Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half;…”

يُوصِيكُمُ اللَّهُ فِي أَوْلَادِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الْأُنْثَيَيْنِ
​

(E) (A)

02) Woman is deficient in intelligence & religion, and her witness is half the man.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”

صحيح البخاري:
خرج رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏في أضحى أو فطر إلى المصلى فمر على النساء فقال يا معشر النساء ‏ ‏تصدقن فإني ‏ ‏أريتكن ‏ ‏أكثر أهل النار فقلن وبم يا رسول الله قال تكثرن ‏ ‏اللعن ‏ ‏وتكفرن ‏ ‏العشير ‏ ‏ما رأيت من ناقصات عقل ودين أذهب ‏ ‏للب ‏ ‏الرجل الحازم من إحداكن قلن وما نقصان ديننا وعقلنا يا رسول الله قال أليس شهادة المرأة مثل نصف شهادة الرجل قلن بلى قال فذلك من نقصان عقلها أليس إذا حاضت لم تصل ولم تصم قلن بلى قال فذلك من نقصان دينها ‏
​

(E) (A)

03) Woman can’t travel alone.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 29, Number 85:
"The Prophet said, “A woman should not travel except with a Dhu-Mahram (her husband or a man with whom that woman cannot marry at all according to the Islamic Jurisprudence), and no man may visit her except in the presence of a Dhu-Mahram.” A man got up and said, “O Allah’s Apostle! I intend to go to such and such an army and my wife wants to perform Hajj.” The Prophet said (to him), “Go along with her (to Hajj).”

صحيح البخاري:
قال النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏لا تسافر المرأة إلا مع ذي محرم ولا يدخل عليها رجل إلا ومعها محرم فقال رجل يا رسول الله إني أريد أن أخرج في جيش كذا وكذا وامرأتي تريد الحج فقال اخرج معها ‏
​

(E) (A)

 

[PA650]

Wina, please do not take up the points from an atheist. We cannot argue with any atheist. We always leave the matters of an Atheist on this catholic forum to the qualified catholics who may look after the atheists.

I’m sorry staffsgt7, that you were presented with such an inane cop-out.

 

[wina]

actually not , salaht is different than any other type
Salat takes a special form and content, where both body and soul are harmoniously involved. In salaht , every muscle of the body joins the soul and the mind in the worship and glory of Allah. Prayer is an act of worship. It is a matchless and unprecedented formula of intellectual meditation and spiritual devotion, of moral elevation and physical exercise, all combined.

**Requirements of prayer salaht : **performing of ablution (Wudu), purity of the whole body, clothes and ground used for prayer, dressing properly and having the intention and facing the Qiblah (the direction of the Ka’bah at Mecca).

so their are many requirements we (men and women) should to fulfill before performing this kind of prayer " salaht"
so men or women can’t perform salaht if one of these requirements not fulfilled .
if men have monthly period , they will be forbidden from salat either

Thanks for the explantion. So now the question is why when women get their period will be said as impure condition? which this condition is natural thing.

 

[elwill]

More on equality between man & woman :

01) Female inheritance is half the male and even less than that in some situations.
(Quran 4:11):
“Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half;…”

يُوصِيكُمُ اللَّهُ فِي أَوْلَادِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الْأُنْثَيَيْنِ
​

(E) (A)

according to Islam, it is responsibility of a man to provide the financial source to the wife , kids, parents (when they get old), and sisters (if they become widows). And if man refuse to support his widow sister for instance, then if she decides to take him to court and sue him , and prove that he make enough money to be able to support his wife, kids and his widow sister, then the court will force him to pay her money every month to support her. This law in Islam is called the law of “Nafaqa”.

The woman according to islam does not have to provide a single dollar, nor her husband has the right to ask her or force her to use her money to support her husband and kids. In fact, just to show you how fair and respectful Islam is to women, a woman has the right to ask her husband for money for breast feeding her their child.

Furthermore, according to the Islamic laws, the husband does not have the right to force his wife to work if she doesn’t want to. It is the man’s primary responsibility to support his family financially, and not the woman.

Wouldn’t you agree with me that if it is the man’s responsibility to support his parents (when they get old), wife, kids, and widow sisters, then it makes perfect sense for the man to get more money than the woman in inheritance?

**Islam believes in equality between men and women - Equality does not mean identicality. **

for you specifically sam , before you judge on islams law to be unjust with women , then read the bible first :
According to Numbers 27:1-11, widows and sisters don’t inherit at all. Daughters can inherit only if their deceased father had no sons. Otherwise the sons receive the entire inheritance.

peace

02) Woman is deficient in intelligence & religion, and her witness is half the man.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”

if you interrest with the meaning of this hadeeth , read these article
answering-christianity.com/karim/women_not_deficient_in_intelligence_and_religion.htm

03) Woman can’t travel alone.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 29, Number 85:
"The Prophet said, “A woman should not travel except with a Dhu-Mahram (her husband or a man with whom that woman cannot marry at all according to the Islamic Jurisprudence), and no man may visit her except in the presence of a Dhu-Mahram.” A man got up and said, “O Allah’s Apostle! I intend to go to such and such an army and my wife wants to perform Hajj.” The Prophet said (to him), “Go along with her (to Hajj).”

صحيح البخاري:

is it restriction for womens , or commands to husbands to secure them and help them in their traveling
did anyone read the hadeeth from this view

The wisdom behind this ruling is surely to save her from the dangers that can be encountered in the journey.

keep in your mind , how the travel was 1400 years ago
​

​

 

[elwill]

Thanks for the explantion. So now the question is why when women get their period will be said as impure condition? which this condition is natural thing.

why you deal with this concept as if it was insult or something ?

wina , isn’t your friend by herself said to you that she is in impure condition , do you think that she meant to insult her own self , she just wanna to say that she wasn’t ready .

impure here refere to menses SEXUALLY , But we can still be physically around them and act normally with them.

women in Islam do not pollute or cause anything to be unclean if they touch it while they are having their menses.

may be your confusion aroused from what you know about jews regarding this matter !

 

[Jay53]

is it restriction for womens , or commands to husbands to secure them and help them in their traveling
did anyone read the hadeeth from this view

The wisdom behind this ruling is surely to save her from the dangers that can be encountered in the journey.

keep in your mind , how the travel was 1400 years ago

But, I thought the Quran was for all people at all time? Surely Allah would know that women would not always be subject to the travel issues of 7th century Arabia.

 

[schaick]

Some Islamic equality:

The indemnity for killing a male Muslim is 100 camels.
(N: Shafi`i scholars early converted the pastoral equivalents to gold dinars (n: one dinar equalling 4.235 grams of gold (dis: w15) ), the amount due in the rulings below being the weight of the gold, regardless of its current market value.) (A: The stronger position in the Shafi’s school is that indemnities should be reckoned in camels, after which both parties may agree on a lesser amount or another form of payment.)

The indemnity for the death or injury of a woman is one-half the indemnity paid for a man.

The indemnity paid for a Jew or Christian is one-third of the indemnity paid for a Muslim.

The indemnity paid of a Zoroastrian is one-fifteenth of that a Muslim

Did you know that in Islam the majority in hell will be women? If a muslim kills a non-muslim there is no need for retaliation. Parents can kill their child without fear of retaliation.

 

[elwill]

But, I thought the Quran was for all people at all time? Surely Allah would know that women would not always be subject to the travel issues of 7th century Arabia.

actually , it was a hadeeth not quran . it was an event which happened in the time of mohammed (pbuh)
someone asked the prophet this question about his wife , and the prophet adviced him to travel with his wife to protect her
event from his history , from his life

 

[elwill]

Some Islamic equality:

The indemnity for killing a male Muslim is 100 camels.
(N: Shafi`i scholars early converted the pastoral equivalents to gold dinars (n: one dinar equalling 4.235 grams of gold (dis: w15) ), the amount due in the rulings below being the weight of the gold, regardless of its current market value.) (A: The stronger position in the Shafi’s school is that indemnities should be reckoned in camels, after which both parties may agree on a lesser amount or another form of payment.)

The indemnity for the death or injury of a woman is one-half the indemnity paid for a man.

The indemnity paid for a Jew or Christian is one-third of the indemnity paid for a Muslim.

The indemnity paid of a Zoroastrian is one-fifteenth of that a Muslim

Did you know that in Islam the majority in hell will be women? If a muslim kills a non-muslim there is no need for retaliation. Parents can kill their child without fear of retaliation.

do you have islamic references for what you said ?

 

[elwill]

But, I thought the Quran was for all people at all time? Surely Allah would know that women would not always be subject to the travel issues of 7th century Arabia.

forgot to tell you another thing
women are subjected to danger in any time , specifically when she is alone

 

[planten]

Well done elwill and thank you for explaining the good points of Islamic law about cleanliness and inheritance. I am sure that the real law about inheritance in Islam is far better than any in the world. I feel that christians do not have law about inheritance. So they should not complain about the Islamic laws.

elwill you have explained most of the points discussed here and I thank you very much. It is all understood very well. These laws are for the Muslims. They do not have any complaint. There is no need for any christian to complain about Islamic laws unless he/she brings out better laws from their own sources / scripture (BibleNT).