Question for Muslims about Abraham

[meedo]

This is all very interesting, thank you all for responding. I am not sure if I understand if there is in the above posts an answer to my question below:

If anyone here can answer that I would be grateful.

Thanks!

God Bless your soul,

First … I am happy that you get to know your neighbors and happy your kids are friends with theirs . May we always have friendship between us.

Second… in my opinion… you are being too worried. As a Muslim if i send my kids to play with non Muslims i expect them to come up with new ideas . Just don’t think about what your Muslim neighbors would think as long as you do what you do in good faith.

Third… apart for some people who trace carefully their lineage i dont think any Arab can say for sure if he is descendant from Abraham or not .

Fourth : Ishmael resided in Arabia and married and had many sons . These sons had descendants. No one knows how much of the existing Arabs are from his descendants . But seeing how the Arabs immigrated with Islam… i would say his lineage is all over the globe now. But if you wanna generalize … as we could say about the Jewish people that they are the descendants of Issac… so we can say about the Arabs that they are the descendants of Ishmael

Fifth: I don’t think your neighbors will be offended of anything. And i don’t see a reason to stop your children from talking in anything they want. Let them grow up and understand the differences and sure they will accept it .

All the best

Meedo

 

[smswife]

Thank you!

I think that answers my question.

It seems there is not anything to worry about.

This thread is reminding me that I still need to call these neighbors to see if their teenage daughter can babysit this weekend!

Thank you all who responded.

 

[Discipulo]

On top of it all, of course, is the Qur’an which cannot be contradicted by any ahadith…

I am no expert of Islam but I do try to study it, and own an English version of it with the Arabic on the right side, but I must ask what about the Koran contradicting itself and history? I have a list I compiled a little while back here it is, please be open to recieving this I am not trying to offend anyone just show dialogue at what I found:

1. It says that a Samaritan is said to have helped build the Golden Calf - Sura 20:90. It is an established historical fact that Samaria did not exist prior to the nation of Israel, this event occured at Mount Sinai but the Israelites did not even enter the promised land yet.
2. The Koran says that Pharoah was going to crucify his magicians, crucifixion was invented by the Romans centuries later.
3. The Koran claims the Christian Trinity is Jesus, Mary and the Father, it is in fact the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
4. Sura 41:9-12 says Allah created the universe in 8 days, Suras 7:54, 10:3, 11:7 and 50:38 say six.
5. Sura 22:47 says a day for Allah is like a 1000 years, Sura 70:4 says a Day for Allah is like 50,000 years.
6. Sura 81:25 says the Koran is not the word of Satan, Sura 22:52 says some texts were.
7. Sura 2:29 Says Allah created Earth and then Heaven while Sura 79:27-30 says Allah created Heaven and then Earth.
8. Sura 6:115 says Allah’s word does not change, Sura 21:106 says it does.
9. Alexander the Great was Muslim - Sura 18:89-98
10. Sura 10:89-92 says Pharaoh repented and became Muslim but Sura 17:102-103 says he never repented and drowned.
11. Sura 109:1-6 teaches tolerance of non-muslims Sura 9:5 says slay any non-believer wherever you find them.

 

[hamba2han]

I am no expert of Islam but I do try to study it, and own an English version of it with the Arabic on the right side, but I must ask what about the Koran contradicting itself and history? I have a list I compiled a little while back here it is, please be open to recieving this I am not trying to offend anyone just show dialogue at what I found:

1. It says that a Samaritan is said to have helped build the Golden Calf - Sura 20:90. It is an established historical fact that Samaria did not exist prior to the nation of Israel, this event occured at Mount Sinai but the Israelites did not even enter the promised land yet.
2. The Koran says that Pharoah was going to crucify his magicians, crucifixion was invented by the Romans centuries later.
3. The Koran claims the Christian Trinity is Jesus, Mary and the Father, it is in fact the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
4. Sura 41:9-12 says Allah created the universe in 8 days, Suras 7:54, 10:3, 11:7 and 50:38 say six.
5. Sura 22:47 says a day for Allah is like a 1000 years, Sura 70:4 says a Day for Allah is like 50,000 years.
6. Sura 81:25 says the Koran is not the word of Satan, Sura 22:52 says some texts were.
7. Sura 2:29 Says Allah created Earth and then Heaven while Sura 79:27-30 says Allah created Heaven and then Earth.
8. Sura 6:115 says Allah’s word does not change, Sura 21:106 says it does.
9. Alexander the Great was Muslim - Sura 18:89-98
10. Sura 10:89-92 says Pharaoh repented and became Muslim but Sura 17:102-103 says he never repented and drowned.
11. Sura 109:1-6 teaches tolerance of non-muslims Sura 9:5 says slay any non-believer wherever you find them.

There are too many things for me to reply to and it will take way too long for me to do so and so I won’t.

However, perhaps by just addressing the 1st question that you asked about the Samaritans might illustrate why efforts to prove so-called “errors” in the Qur’an have failed because modern research is continually churning up new facts which supports what is written in the Qur’an.

For example, modern historical research does indeed show that the Samaritans were in existence at the time of Prophet Moses (pbuh) and to read about this research, you can visit this webpage fom which the following is a small excerpt:

In recent years, research based on a more careful study of the Chronicles of the Samaritans has led to a re-evaluation of their origins. Specifically, with the publication of the Samaritan Chronicle II (Sefer ha-Yamim), the fullest Samaritan version of their own history became available. A historical analysis of this chronicle reveals that the Samaritans are the direct descendants of the Joseph tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh, and until the 17th century C.E. they possessed a high priesthood descending directly from Aaron through Eleazar and Phinehas. The common ancestry of both the Jews and Samaritans was also established by recent genetic studies, going back to cohen or the Jewish priestly family. This study also validated both local and foreign origins of the Samaritans.

 

[meltzerboy]

No authentic hadith can contradict another authentic hadith and in the event that there appears to be contradiction, then there will almost always be yet other related ahadith which will explain the circumstances which has caused such seeming contradictions to occur.

On top of it all, of course, is the Qur’an which cannot be contradicted by any ahadith.

In the case of the Last Sermon of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), there is nothing in his Sermon which contradicts the Qur’an whereas in the case of the few ahadith presented in Discipulo’s post, we can see that there are contradictions between the contents of these ahadith and the teachings found in the Qur’an.

Thanks for the explanation. The “procedure” sounds a bit like that found in Judaism.

 

[MorningSong51]

Pardon my ignorance. So based on what you’re saying, the Hadith are not regarded by Muslims as Holy to the degree of infallibility the way the Qu’ran is? Perhaps they have similar status to the Kabbalah compared to the Torah in Judaism, or the Church Fathers compared to Scripture in Catholicism: that is, authoritative but not infallible.

Isn’t that the same on Halakhic rulings – a Posek,a decider of Jewish law (or a halachic decisor), will make the finally ruling on a law - sometimes when there is a contradiction (?) - The decision of a posek is known as a psak din or psak halakha (“ruling of law”; pl. piskei din, piskei halakha) or simply a “psak”. In Hebrew, פסק is the root implying to “stop” or “cease”—the posek brings the process of legal debate to finality.

another thought, However, our sages sometimes built special leniencies into Rabbinic laws. In cases of doubt (safek), after the fact (bediavad), or in extenuating circumstances (bish’at hadechak), rulings concerning Rabbinic law may be more lenient. The application of these general principles to particular cases is complex. A posek (halachic decisor) must consider many halachic factors and practical details before issuing a ruling appropriate to the individual situation. LINK:yoatzot.org/article.php?id=88

kolhamevaser.com/2010/07/an-interview-with-rabbi-hershel-schachter/

 

[meltzerboy]

Isn’t that the same on Halakhic rulings – a Posek,a decider of Jewish law (or a halachic decisor), will make the finally ruling on a law - sometimes when there is a contradiction (?) - The decision of a posek is known as a psak din or psak halakha (“ruling of law”; pl. piskei din, piskei halakha) or simply a “psak”. In Hebrew, פסק is the root implying to “stop” or “cease”—the posek brings the process of legal debate to finality.

another thought, However, our sages sometimes built special leniencies into Rabbinic laws. In cases of doubt (safek), after the fact (bediavad), or in extenuating circumstances (bish’at hadechak), rulings concerning Rabbinic law may be more lenient. The application of these general principles to particular cases is complex. A posek (halachic decisor) must consider many halachic factors and practical details before issuing a ruling appropriate to the individual situation. LINK:yoatzot.org/article.php?id=88

kolhamevaser.com/2010/07/an-interview-with-rabbi-hershel-schachter/

Yes indeed, and poskim of different cultures will often disagree. Many Catholics–apart from Jesuits–don’t understand how Jews can have such internal disputes about basic beliefs and practices, even more so when some of those disputes remain unresolved. However, in your case, MorningSong, I think you’re ready for the rabbinate!

 

[MorningSong51]

Yes indeed, and poskim of different cultures will often disagree. Many Catholics–apart from Jesuits–don’t understand how Jews can have such internal disputes about basic beliefs and practices, even more so when some of those disputes remain unresolved. However, in your case, MorningSong, I think you’re ready for the rabbinate!

Lol…I do know a woman who is a rabbi - although I don’t know what to make out of the new reform. Also, I understand that the laws, and as ancient as some may be still, can run into situations that can be very complex on giving rulings. In the same breath, when a ruling or interpretation can not be given due to the complexity of the issue/or issues, this would be when the Bet Din steps in, correct? A higher authority?

In my understanding, the basis of the law will still stand but if a particular law conflicts with another (let’s say on interpretation/ruling- that is regarded higher) than the higher ruling would take precedents and out weigh the lesser - as this sometimes occurs. An example: Law of the land or in another case business and ethics, and a very good subject was on the Halakhic discussions on those serving in the war, prisoner of war…etc., as this plays into many legal issues for families - as well as for women. Wasn’t this the basis for how it was to be determined on Jewish descent - who is a Jew? Due to the reasons of Jewish dispersion during war, as well as how the Jewish people could continue to be observant during those tragic and horrible times.

 

[MorningSong51]

Quote:
So the question is, does the average American Arabic Muslim consider himself a descendant of Abraham and would he/she be offended or annoyed by the Catholic child next door bringing up the idea?

No, they wouldn’t be offended. As a child, I grew up around an ethnic neighborhood - you can’t escape from it. Long ago - there use to be a time when cities were sectioned off by ethnic groups - Eastern Orthodox - Polish, Czech, Greek, Russian; Jewish, Conservative and Orthodox - we use to live up the street from an Orthodox Shul and around the corner was the Conservative shul; Arabic Section - Arabic Christian section Lebanese - Syrian Orthodox and then the Lebanese Catholics. All of us, as kids, use to hang out together - which was a lot of fun. Some families, maybe had nine kids to a family which I thought was a good deal because all I had to do was knock on the door and you had a team to play against. The idea: Kids will be kids - will be kids, and whatever you tell them will go in one ear and out the other, their probably ask you the same question later on - when they become aware of their own environment. No matter what age - this will be their best years because they learn how to form friendships - and then later in life, they will learn from those friendships how to make either new ones or they will hang on to the ones that they already have. You’re feelings toward any of your son’s friendships - will gain latitude, but trust him and his conversations, he’ll know when he should pull back or go forward with it.

The last thing on their mind - is what religion do you practice. I think the first idea - is to get to know the family and see how they will respond to their son’s friend, as well. I don’t know if the mother is pulling the son aside (as you are) and teaching him all that there is to know about the Christian faith, that would be a life time event - as there are some of us who are still under construction. So get to know the family and communicate with them… I remember I had lots of questions when I was growing up as a child, do I remember some of the questions? or answers? Some but not all…be supportive but at a distance and let your son take the lead…

Blessings
Mary

 

[MorningSong51]

Under the ‘Science of Hadith’, the ahadith are classified according to their strength in terms of the reliability and credibility of every one of the witnesses along the chain of narration before the hadith is actually recorded.

In the case of the Last Sermon of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), almost every one of the most faithful and pious of his Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) heard him deliver his Sermon.

If indeed there are to be found other ahadith that may appear to contradict an extremely sound hadith like this Last Sermon of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and which have come from much less reliable sources, then these ahadith are either put aside as being very weak hadith or simply discarded as being fabricated hadith.

But a particular law (fiqh) critically rests on the hadith literature but can be interpreted by a scholar in the law. - who then can actually make a deliberation, which can be binding. However, not all interpretations by a Mufti - are binding to all. issue verdicts (fataawa)

Is this correct??? some are just rulings and not necessarily binding to all Muslims

Ijma’ (consensus)

In situations when Muslims have not been able to find a specific legal ruling in the Qur’an or Sunnah, the consensus of the community is sought (or at least the consensus of the legal scholars within the community). The Prophet Muhammad once said that his community (i.e. the Muslim community) would never agree on an error.

Qiyas (analogy)
In cases when something needs a legal ruling, but has not been clearly addressed in the other sources, judges may use analogy, reasoning, and legal precedent to decide new case law. This is often the case when a general principle can be applied to new situations. (See the article Smoking in Islam for an example of this process at work.)
islam.about.com/od/law/a/sources.htm

 

[elwill]

i can argue your points in details and with many proofs , but i will just give you hints as an answers for now

I am no expert of Islam but I do try to study it, and own an English version of it with the Arabic on the right side, but I must ask what about the Koran contradicting itself and history? I have a list I compiled a little while back here it is, please be open to recieving this I am not trying to offend anyone just show dialogue at what I found:

1. The Koran says that Pharoah was going to crucify his magicians, crucifixion was invented by the Romans centuries later.

the mention of crucifixion in the Qur’an comes from the root Ṣ-L-B and it has no connotations of a cross or its shape. Rather it indicates any method of execution which makes the body stiffened or hardened (as any movement would cause excruciating pain) and results in leaking of bodily fluids. Therefore, crucifixion by impalement and other forms of crucifixion are included here without making any distinction between them.

1. The Koran claims the Christian Trinity is Jesus, Mary and the Father, it is in fact the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

koran mentioned trinity twice in the quran , no one of them described it
and the verse you are talking about not talking about trinity concept at all

1. Sura 41:9-12 says Allah created the universe in 8 days, Suras 7:54, 10:3, 11:7 and 50:38 say six.

Holy Verses (41:9-12) describe the primal creation of our physical earth and the physical heavens around us. If we count the two days mentioned in (41:9), the four days, mentioned in (41:10), and the two days mentioned in (41:12), we get a total of eight days. However, the four days in (41:10) include the two days in (41:9), because the processes described in (41:9-10) form one series. In the one case it is the creation of the formless matter of the earth; and in the other case it is the gradual evolution of the form of the earth, its mountains and seas, and its animal and vegetable life, with the “nourishment in due proportion, (41:10)” proper to each.

1. Sura 22:47 says a day for Allah is like a 1000 years, Sura 70:4 says a Day for Allah is like 50,000 years.

they are not alike , you have to read them more deeply

[Quran 70.1-4] Someone asked about the penalty that will befall 2 the unbelievers; (A penalty) that has none to ward off; 3 (a penalty) from Allah (who owns) wormholes [Ma’arej in Arabic] 4 The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

God in this verse gave us the method of transportation of his angels throughout the universe. The Quran calls them ‘Ma’arej معارج’ and describes how angels use them for long distance travel. Today Moslems know that these ‘Ma’arej’ is what scientists call wormholes:

Any object passing through this wormhole will also experience this same time dilation (one day inside wormhole vs. 50,000 years on Earth) and not just those angels. This time dilation does not say how long it takes you to cross the wormhole, it just says that when you pass through the wormhole you age by this ratio.

[Quran 22.47] They challenge you to bring forth that torture [in Hell] and Allah will not break His promise; a day of your Lord [Paradise/Hell promise] is like a thousand years of what you count.

Moslems believe that Paradise and Hell are both much bigger and much more massive than Earth (but still much smaller than God’s Throne). The theory of general relativity says that time should pass slower near an object more massive than Earth (clocks run slower in stronger gravitational fields). So according to general relativity, time should pass in Paradise/Hell much slower than on Earth. Moslems say that this is what Allah says. It is stated in the Quran that 1 day in Paradise/Hell measures a 1000 years on Earth:

 

[MorningSong51]

i can argue your points in details and with many proofs , but i will just give you hints as an answers for now

the mention of crucifixion in the Qur’an comes from the root Ṣ-L-B and it has no connotations of a cross or its shape. Rather it indicates any method of execution which makes the body stiffened or hardened (as any movement would cause excruciating pain) and results in leaking of bodily fluids. Therefore, crucifixion by impalement and other forms of crucifixion are included here without making any distinction between them.

koran mentioned trinity twice in the quran , no one of them described it
and the verse you are talking about not talking about trinity concept at all

Holy Verses (41:9-12) describe the primal creation of our physical earth and the physical heavens around us. If we count the two days mentioned in (41:9), the four days, mentioned in (41:10), and the two days mentioned in (41:12), we get a total of eight days. However, the four days in (41:10) include the two days in (41:9), because the processes described in (41:9-10) form one series. In the one case it is the creation of the formless matter of the earth; and in the other case it is the gradual evolution of the form of the earth, its mountains and seas, and its animal and vegetable life, with the “nourishment in due proportion, (41:10)” proper to each.

they are not alike , you have to read them more deeply

[Quran 70.1-4] Someone asked about the penalty that will befall 2 the unbelievers; (A penalty) that has none to ward off; 3 (a penalty) from Allah (who owns) wormholes [Ma’arej in Arabic] 4 The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

God in this verse gave us the method of transportation of his angels throughout the universe. The Quran calls them ‘Ma’arej معارج’ and describes how angels use them for long distance travel. Today Moslems know that these ‘Ma’arej’ is what scientists call wormholes:

Any object passing through this wormhole will also experience this same time dilation (one day inside wormhole vs. 50,000 years on Earth) and not just those angels. This time dilation does not say how long it takes you to cross the wormhole, it just says that when you pass through the wormhole you age by this ratio.

[Quran 22.47] They challenge you to bring forth that torture [in Hell] and Allah will not break His promise; a day of your Lord [Paradise/Hell promise] is like a thousand years of what you count.

Moslems believe that Paradise and Hell are both much bigger and much more massive than Earth (but still much smaller than God’s Throne). The theory of general relativity says that time should pass slower near an object more massive than Earth (clocks run slower in stronger gravitational fields). So according to general relativity, time should pass in Paradise/Hell much slower than on Earth. Moslems say that this is what Allah says. It is stated in the Quran that 1 day in Paradise/Hell measures a 1000 years on Earth:

Question - regarding the direction that one would walk around the Ka’ba? - and isn’t this the same (walk) direction that one walks - as if it were the “Ani L’Dodi V’dodi Li” (“I to my beloved and my beloved to me”). …symbolizing the relationship between God and the people and/or person - even at wedding, this is the direction the bride walks around the groom. The direction has a special significance - During the annual pilgrimage (“Hajj”), Muslims walk around around the Ka’aba in a counter-clockwise direction (a ritual known as “tawaf”).

Doesn’t this have something to do with the orbiting motions of heavenly bodies. - direction? I can’t remember all information on this - so if you could help?

 

[elwill]

Question - regarding the direction that one would walk around the Ka’ba? - and isn’t this the same (walk) direction that one walks - as if it were the “Ani L’Dodi V’dodi Li” (“I to my beloved and my beloved to me”). …symbolizing the relationship between God and the people and/or person - even at wedding, this is the direction the bride walks around the groom. The direction has a special significance - During the annual pilgrimage (“Hajj”), Muslims walk around around the Ka’aba in a counter-clockwise direction (a ritual known as “tawaf”).

Doesn’t this have something to do with the orbiting motions of heavenly bodies. - direction? I can’t remember all information on this - so if you could help?

i read about these thoughts once ,( i read it in arabic ) i will search if we have it in english

The Kaaba with respect to the inhabited parts of the world is like the centre of a circle with respect to the circle itself. All regions face the Kaaba, surrounding it as a circle surrounds its centre; and each region faces a particular part of the Kaaba.

**‘Tawaf’ **or cicumbulation (the ritual encircling of the Kaaba) . must circle the Kaaba seven times with the Kaaba to his left (in anti-clockwise direction).

On examination, it will be found that the entire universe which is in constant circular or elliptical rotation, is in actual fact moving in the pattern as the Tawaf. The electrons of an atom revolve around its nucleus in the same manner as making Tawaf, in an anti-clockwise direction. The ovum, prior to fertilisation actually taking place, surrounded by sperms, turns remarkably in anti-clockwise direction, thereby resembling the Tawaf. Considering the globe as a whole, it could be found that the earth has two movements. It rotates on its own axis in 24 hours causing day and night. The various seasons of the year are due to the earth’s simultaneous revolution around the sun in 365 days. It is really astonishing to note that the earth, in both these movements, rotates anti-clockwise. The entire universe from the atom to the galaxies is in constant circular rotation like a circumambulator who encircles the Kaaba in the anti-clockwise direction. All objects in the universe, atoms, moon, stars, electrical current, galaxies, etc. are rotating in the same way. Moreover, the angles encircle the heavenly Baitul Ma’mur in an ever-lasting Tawaf. In the same way, the Kaaba in Makkah is never free from circumbulators.

You can look the same way at Al Hajj, where the believers come from different places to the very center of the earth; the sacred mosque of the One Only God, to perform rituals of Al Hajj, means Al Ihram, in the way that their heart must be pure and in a full submission to their only Lord, circling around the Al Ka’abah; the nucleus of the earth, as the electrons circle around the nucleus of the atom, and as the planets circle around the stars and as the stars circle around the center of the galaxy.

If you look at the picture of pilgrims in their circles around Al Ka’aba where all share the same color and the same special cloth of Al Ihram, so identical the one to another that you cannot identify single any one out of them, you are really looking inside the atom where the electrons are moving in circles around the nucleus while they are identical one to another to the extent that scientists are unable to distinguish one electron from another.
It is the same submission to the creator, but with one difference, the believer is doing this willingly according to his/her own freedom of choice.

 

[MorningSong51]

i read about these thoughts once ,( i read it in arabic ) i will search if we have it in english

The Kaaba with respect to the inhabited parts of the world is like the centre of a circle with respect to the circle itself. All regions face the Kaaba, surrounding it as a circle surrounds its centre; and each region faces a particular part of the Kaaba.

**‘Tawaf’ **or cicumbulation (the ritual encircling of the Kaaba) . must circle the Kaaba seven times with the Kaaba to his left (in anti-clockwise direction).

On examination, it will be found that the entire universe which is in constant circular or elliptical rotation, is in actual fact moving in the pattern as the Tawaf. The electrons of an atom revolve around its nucleus in the same manner as making Tawaf, in an anti-clockwise direction. The ovum, prior to fertilisation actually taking place, surrounded by sperms, turns remarkably in anti-clockwise direction, thereby resembling the Tawaf. Considering the globe as a whole, it could be found that the earth has two movements. It rotates on its own axis in 24 hours causing day and night. The various seasons of the year are due to the earth’s simultaneous revolution around the sun in 365 days. It is really astonishing to note that the earth, in both these movements, rotates anti-clockwise. The entire universe from the atom to the galaxies is in constant circular rotation like a circumambulator who encircles the Kaaba in the anti-clockwise direction. All objects in the universe, atoms, moon, stars, electrical current, galaxies, etc. are rotating in the same way. Moreover, the angles encircle the heavenly Baitul Ma’mur in an ever-lasting Tawaf. In the same way, the Kaaba in Makkah is never free from circumbulators.

You can look the same way at Al Hajj, where the believers come from different places to the very center of the earth; the sacred mosque of the One Only God, to perform rituals of Al Hajj, means Al Ihram, in the way that their heart must be pure and in a full submission to their only Lord, circling around the Al Ka’abah; the nucleus of the earth, as the electrons circle around the nucleus of the atom, and as the planets circle around the stars and as the stars circle around the center of the galaxy.

If you look at the picture of pilgrims in their circles around Al Ka’aba where all share the same color and the same special cloth of Al Ihram, so identical the one to another that you cannot identify single any one out of them, you are really looking inside the atom where the electrons are moving in circles around the nucleus while they are identical one to another to the extent that scientists are unable to distinguish one electron from another.
It is the same submission to the creator, but with one difference, the believer is doing this willingly according to his/her own freedom of choice.

Shalom Elwill,

Thank you for giving me this information and also, I read up on it,
Virtues of the first ten days of Dhul Hijjah

 

[elwill]

Shalom Elwill,

Thank you for giving me this information and also, I read up on it,
Virtues of the first ten days of Dhul Hijjah

you are very welcome MorningSong51