Question for Muslims about God

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Your heart inciline to a mystic thought which seems a bit fantastic. Such amazing ways depart from the right way many times.

Ofcourse Fathers did a very good work by conveying disciplines of Jesus. But these doctrines were not taught by Fathers. These far-out thoughts emerged very away from land of Jesus.
I’m at a loss at how at how you arrived at that conclusion. I’m almost certain you are purposely misinterpreting my posts.

I briefly explained who St. Irenaeus was, without the level of detail I gave you, to an imam I spoke to back in February and he immediately recognised that this is very similar to the Isnad, Salaf, etc. in Islam; unless you believe that is all “mysticism”.

The Fathers did not teach these things? You do realise their writings are all available? This is not something you can get away with lying about.
 
Was Jesus not a human?

Jesus was on the world and Father is out of world so are there not seperate deities?

Jesus had % 100 human nature and it is said that God assumed a human body!

Then what is the connection between Jesus and God?
God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God does not have a Son separate from Himself. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is perhaps the most true name of God we have.

Jesus is 100% human and 100% God, natures unmixed. The human nature of Jesus is not divine, but by virtue of being part of a union with fully divine nature of God, may be adored. When Jesus was in the world, God was in the world, the LORD moving amongst his people. But God was in no way reduced or limited by this.

The divinity of Jesus is not separated from the divinity of God. It’s the same and unseparated, not divided. It’s not like the divinity was broken off and simply contained in a physical space. It’s immaterial, part of the person of Jesus, but not existing in any space. It’s not some ghostly substance.
 
Was Jesus not a human?

Jesus was on the world and Father is out of world so are there not seperate deities?

Jesus had % 100 human nature and it is said that God assumed a human body!

Then what is the connection between Jesus and God?
I find it strange that Allah is called ( just naming a few ) all-powerful creator, the life giver, the provider, the opener, all knowing , the maker, the designer, the provider.
But it’s impossible for him to have a son
 
I find it strange that Allah is called ( just naming a few ) all-powerful creator, the life giver, the provider, the opener, all knowing , the maker, the designer, the provider.
But it’s impossible for him to have a son
Did Allah of Islam say he has no son? Or was it a man who said “God forbid that he should beget a son” ?

MJ
 
God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God does not have a Son separate from Himself. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is perhaps the most true name of God we have.

Jesus is 100% human and 100% God, natures unmixed. The human nature of Jesus is not divine, but by virtue of being part of a union with fully divine nature of God, may be adored. When Jesus was in the world, God was in the world, the LORD moving amongst his people. But God was in no way reduced or limited by this.

The divinity of Jesus is not separated from the divinity of God. It’s the same and unseparated, not divided. It’s not like the divinity was broken off and simply contained in a physical space. It’s immaterial, part of the person of Jesus, but not existing in any space. It’s not some ghostly substance.
Firstly my God is not a human. You may deem a human as God but that is far away from a true believer.

God can feel or see or understand or effect myself more than me. What you assume for body of Jesus is general for every mankind or for any alive. We are not seperated exactly from God. God surround human entirely. We may depart just by rejection. Ofcourse Jesus may have a more powerful connection with God but that do not make Him God.

Jesus consider Himself merely a human and a servant of God and believer in God etc. Jesus never ascribed Himself any divine attribute. You should read Bible more carefully.

God is always out of world and time and space. God can effect time and space but God is not in time and space. When you say that Jesus was God but that means God must be in the world. That conflict with eternal attributes of God.

Jesus cannot have a human soul beside divine essence. That is impossible. That is Greek mythology. Divine essence do not established in material body. Material body get grow and die. Eternal essence do not change or do not get old etc.Two very contra entity cannot reconcile/unite perfectly.
 
Firstly my God is not a human. You may deem a human as God but that is far away from a true believer.

God can feel or see or understand or effect myself more than me. What you assume for body of Jesus is general for every mankind or for any alive. We are not seperated exactly from God. God surround human entirely. We may depart just by rejection. Ofcourse Jesus may have a more powerful connection with God but that do not make Him God.

Jesus consider Himself merely a human and a servant of God and believer in God etc. Jesus never ascribed Himself any divine attribute. You should read Bible more carefully.

God is always out of world and time and space. God can effect time and space but God is not in time and space. When you say that Jesus was God but that means God must be in the world. That conflict with eternal attributes of God.

Jesus cannot have a human soul beside divine essence. That is impossible. That is Greek mythology. Divine essence do not established in material body. Material body get grow and die. Eternal essence do not change or do not get old etc.Two very contra entity cannot reconcile/unite perfectly.
The Church does not teach that Christ’s divine nature is His human nature; they are two distinct natures united in one Christ.

Please don’t use the resort of “you should read the Bible more carefully”. From my experience, I’ve found that this is a dishonest tactic employed by Muslims who haven’t even read the Bible themselves.

The Bible teaches Christian doctrine, and I’ve already made a case for this.

All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine”- John 16:15
 
The Church does not teach that Christ’s divine nature is His human nature; they are two distinct natures united in one Christ.

Please don’t use the resort of “you should read the Bible more carefully”. From my experience, I’ve found that this is a dishonest tactic employed by Muslims who haven’t even read the Bible themselves.

The Bible teaches Christian doctrine, and I’ve already made a case for this.

All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine”- John 16:15
SalamKhan, the tactic is settling only on part of Jesus’s words wherein only John 16:13 will be used. Somehow Mohammed is this spirit of truth. :eek:

MJ
 
Did Allah of Islam say he has no son? Or was it a man who said “God forbid that he should beget a son” ?

MJ
Good question because in two verses I’ve found.
"And say, “Praise to Allah, , who has not taken a son…” 17:111

and

"Say, [O Muhammad], “If the Most Merciful had a son, then I would be the first of [his] worshippers.” 43:81

In 17:111 and 43:81 it sounds like a third person speaking
 
Good question because in two verses I’ve found.
"And say, “Praise to Allah, , who has not taken a son…” 17:111

and

"Say, [O Muhammad], “If the Most Merciful had a son, then I would be the first of [his] worshippers.” 43:81

In 17:111 and 43:81 it sounds like a third person speaking
Makes me wonder what it means to a Muslim, when it is said “if the Most Merciful had a son”.

I mean, If God is Merciful, then how can he not send his Son? That is probably the Most Merciful thing God can do to save his greatest Creation by sending his Son (not a Creation but the Word coming from God’s own Being). To be with his Creation who have the intelligence to live, work, worship, and Praise Him. For the Greater Glory of God.

To share in God’s Divine nature. Such Mercy is beyond human measure. The Charity of God.

2 Peter 1 : 5-7 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.

MJ
 
Makes me wonder what it means to a Muslim, when it is said “if the Most Merciful had a son”.

I mean, If God is Merciful, then how can he not send his Son? That is probably the Most Merciful thing God can do to save his greatest Creation by sending his Son (not a Creation but the Word coming from God’s own Being). To be with his Creation who have the intelligence to live, work, worship, and Praise Him. For the Greater Glory of God.

To share in God’s Divine nature. Such Mercy is beyond human measure. The Charity of God.

2 Peter 1 : 5-7 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.

MJ
It almost begs the question. Why wouldn’t he share?
 
Firstly my God is not a human. You may deem a human as God but that is far away from a true believer.

God can feel or see or understand or effect myself more than me. What you assume for body of Jesus is general for every mankind or for any alive. We are not seperated exactly from God. God surround human entirely. We may depart just by rejection. Ofcourse Jesus may have a more powerful connection with God but that do not make Him God.

Jesus consider Himself merely a human and a servant of God and believer in God etc. Jesus never ascribed Himself any divine attribute. You should read Bible more carefully.

God is always out of world and time and space. God can effect time and space but God is not in time and space. When you say that Jesus was God but that means God must be in the world. That conflict with eternal attributes of God.

Jesus cannot have a human soul beside divine essence. That is impossible. That is Greek mythology. Divine essence do not established in material body. Material body get grow and die. Eternal essence do not change or do not get old etc.Two very contra entity cannot reconcile/unite perfectly.
from hasantas Firstly my God is not a human.

OK, other non-christian believers think so as well.

from hasantas You may deem a human as God but that is far away from a true believer.

By true believer you mean muslem believer. Ok.

from hasantas God can feel or see or understand or effect myself more than me. What you assume for body of Jesus is general for every mankind or for any alive.

I’m guessing … you understand that God is closer to us then we are to ourselves and knows everyone throughly thru and thru. And that Jesus has a body like all other human beings.

Ok.

[from hasantas **We are not seperated exactly from God. God surround human entirely.

If you mean that everyone is held in existence, then it is true that “we are not separated exactly from God”… and never will be. And in that sense, God does support and “surround human entirely.”

from hasantas We may depart just by rejection.
No, God is everywhere by his power and we may never depart from him in that sense. However if you mean anyone may reject God in his own heart, then that is true.

from hasantas Ofcourse Jesus may have a more powerful connection with God but that do not make Him God.

I would agree in that many men may have had a close connection with God but are not God.

from hasantas Jesus consider Himself merely a human and a servant of God and believer in God etc. Jesus never ascribed Himself any divine attribute.

I respectfully disagree that he thought of himself as merely human. This point touches the very heart of what Jesus is all about … his resurrection from dead. And not only his comming back to life, but more than that, he brought HIMSELF back to life after being crucified to death on the cross. There were many witnesses to his death, one of which was a centurion who took a lance and pierced his heart from which flowed blood and water, a sure sign of a punchured heart. Then on the third day, Jesus himself brought himself back to life. No where in the world since the beginning of time has anyone brought THEMSELVES back to life. Because … he is divine … God, he could bring himself back. He also predicted several times that he would do this.

The reason the Jewish elite condemned him to death is because he claimed he was God. And when he said that, they passed judgement on him as a blasphemer…to make himself equal to God.

from hasantas You should read Bible more carefully.

I think everyone should.

from hasantas God is always out of world and time and space. God can effect time and space but God is not in time and space. When you say that Jesus was God but that means God must be in the world. That conflict with eternal attributes of God.

At first glance this can be confusing. That is, if we say that God is eternal and never had a beginning, then it seems impossible he would have a beginning in time. It seems like a contradiction.

But we are not saying that God’s existence started in time, since he always existed. But rather that his existence by being born into this world of a human mother, is both divine and human, or God-man. His existence is not God and then an existence as man, but rather God-man, one existence, because there is just one divine person who is God-man.

Since this idea of God-man is a study unto itself, a separate thread would be needed to go further into it.

from hasantas Jesus cannot have a human soul beside divine essence. That is impossible. That is Greek mythology. Divine essence do not established in material body. Material body get grow and die. Eternal essence do not change or do not get old etc.Two very contra entity cannot reconcile/unite perfectly.

I think this seems to be so as you understand it is because of two existences, one of human and one of divine. That this is impossible that God could have two existences, human and divine, is absolute right.

Jesus did not have two existences but just one, human and divine, God-man. The person of Jesus is both God and man simultaneously, or God-man. To say that he is God and that he is man is technically wrong, for that gives the person of Jesus two existences… one as God and one as man. He exists as one … God-man. So his two natures, God and man, are united perfectly in one person.

Again this is a lengthly subject and a separate thread would be needed to go further into this.
 
Maybe because in Islam…God is great, most merciful, most gracious… I don’t know if there is “God is Love”.

MJ
Islam do not teach attributes of God from only one perspective but by all attributes which act and become manifest through universe and after life. For your question I find that just one.

God and Love

Introduction

This article is an excerpt from a book that Dr. Ahmad Shafaat wrote in 1984. It has been condensed here with some clarifications that are enclosed within square brackets ’ ]’.

Much has been done to distort the true essence of the Quranic version of Islam [note that according to the Quran, every prophet and messenger of God brought the same message to humanity: Islam (a commitment to live in a harmonious alignment with the Divine Law that is created by God Alone for the benefit of humanity – and this brings about peace within one’s own ‘self’ and through interactions with others, within the entire human community)]. One of the teachings of Islam that has been widely distorted is the nature of God’s love towards humanity in general, but towards an individual. This article will attempt to explain this commonly misunderstood and hidden aspect of the Qur`anic message, and is aimed towards those who have sincerity in their hearts.

However, this is just one article. God’s attributes of love and mercy begin to unfold as one reflects on the Qur`an (which contains God’s perfectly chosen words that have tremendous amount of richness and depth) and when one goes through an actual transformation through it and has ‘experiences’ with the presence of the Divine Reality. It’s then, and only then, one wants to prostrate to Him with a profound sense of gratefulness.

This is an exposition of the Islamic teachings on the subject of divine love, forgiveness, salvation, etc. From this exposition it will become clear that:

for the most part the assumptions made by some people about Islamic teachings, the most basic of which is that Islam knows only the greatness of God but not fully His love, are incorrect, being based either on ignorance or deliberate distortion of facts; and

Islam contains the best of teachings of previous revelations on this subject and states them in rational language.

God’s Love in Islam

The Quran uses several words for the term "love" with different shades of meaning. If all these words -- rafah, rahmah, wudda, hub, etc. -- are translated as "love", then this word is of very frequent occurrence in the Quran, appearing on average about once in every 15 aya’h (communications; verses). Even the word hub, which is most commonly translated as love, occurs in application to God so frequently in the Qur`an that it is hardly justified to say that Islam knows only greatness of God, not His love.

God’s Universal Love (rafah, rahmah, rabubiyyah)

The various words used in the Qur`an for God’s love can be divided into two categories: those that relate to universal manifestation of divine love and those that refer to a special love reserved for the righteous.

God’s love in its universal manifestation is generally referred to in the Quran under the terms rafah and rahmah. Rafah can be translated as compassion, kindness or pity, while rahmah is usually rendered as grace, love, blessing or mercy. About God's rahmah the Quran says that it encompasses all things:

My punishment I inflict upon whom I will but My rahmah embraces all things… (7:156).

O our Sustainer! You embrace all things within (Your) rahmah and knowledge (40:7).

These verses reveal that while divine punishment is an act of God’s will directed towards some purpose, love or rahmah is, as it were, His nature, His normal attitude towards men and other creatures. So it is said in 6:12, 15 that God “has enjoined upon Himself (the rule) of rahmah”. It is possible to include in “all things” that are under the embrace of God’s rahmah even those people who are punished, so that even divine punishment can be said to proceed in some way from rahmah. [It’s through punishments and afflictions do we realize that we have crossed the natural boundaries of our existence. This, in turn, brings about a sense of awareness and self-knowledge, which in turn enables one to return to the middle and the balanced path where there is contentment and peace.]

For humans, God’s rahmah and rafah are manifested, for example, in His abundant forgiveness and in the creation of the environment in which humans live, an environment that they can use to their great benefit (22:65; 30:50 etc.). They are also manifested in the revelations sent by God through His messengers (2:154; 11:17; 11:53), [as through this Divine guidance, we come to know God and the natural boundaries He has created within which there is a maximum chance for our spiritual growth].

The coming of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is especially a manifestation of God’s rahmah and rafah (57:9; 6:155). He came as rahmat-al-lil-alamin (grace to all nations) and the revelation he brought is rahmah for all those who believe (10:57; 17:82 etc.).



 
Islam do not teach attributes of God from only one perspective but by all attributes which act and become manifest through universe and after life. For your question I find that just one.

God and Love

Introduction

This article is an excerpt from a book that Dr. Ahmad Shafaat wrote in 1984. It has been condensed here with some clarifications that are enclosed within square brackets ’ ]’.

Much has been done to distort the true essence of the Quranic version of Islam [note that according to the Quran, every prophet and messenger of God brought the same message to humanity: Islam (a commitment to live in a harmonious alignment with the Divine Law that is created by God Alone for the benefit of humanity – and this brings about peace within one’s own ‘self’ and through interactions with others, within the entire human community)]. One of the teachings of Islam that has been widely distorted is the nature of God’s love towards humanity in general, but towards an individual. This article will attempt to explain this commonly misunderstood and hidden aspect of the Qur`anic message, and is aimed towards those who have sincerity in their hearts.

However, this is just one article. God’s attributes of love and mercy begin to unfold as one reflects on the Qur`an (which contains God’s perfectly chosen words that have tremendous amount of richness and depth) and when one goes through an actual transformation through it and has ‘experiences’ with the presence of the Divine Reality. It’s then, and only then, one wants to prostrate to Him with a profound sense of gratefulness.

This is an exposition of the Islamic teachings on the subject of divine love, forgiveness, salvation, etc. From this exposition it will become clear that:

for the most part the assumptions made by some people about Islamic teachings, the most basic of which is that Islam knows only the greatness of God but not fully His love, are incorrect, being based either on ignorance or deliberate distortion of facts; and

Islam contains the best of teachings of previous revelations on this subject and states them in rational language.

God’s Love in Islam

The Quran uses several words for the term "love" with different shades of meaning. If all these words -- rafah, rahmah, wudda, hub, etc. -- are translated as "love", then this word is of very frequent occurrence in the Quran, appearing on average about once in every 15 aya’h (communications; verses). Even the word hub, which is most commonly translated as love, occurs in application to God so frequently in the Qur`an that it is hardly justified to say that Islam knows only greatness of God, not His love.

God’s Universal Love (rafah, rahmah, rabubiyyah)

The various words used in the Qur`an for God’s love can be divided into two categories: those that relate to universal manifestation of divine love and those that refer to a special love reserved for the righteous.

God’s love in its universal manifestation is generally referred to in the Quran under the terms rafah and rahmah. Rafah can be translated as compassion, kindness or pity, while rahmah is usually rendered as grace, love, blessing or mercy. About God's rahmah the Quran says that it encompasses all things:

My punishment I inflict upon whom I will but My rahmah embraces all things… (7:156).

O our Sustainer! You embrace all things within (Your) rahmah and knowledge (40:7).

These verses reveal that while divine punishment is an act of God’s will directed towards some purpose, love or rahmah is, as it were, His nature, His normal attitude towards men and other creatures. So it is said in 6:12, 15 that God “has enjoined upon Himself (the rule) of rahmah”. It is possible to include in “all things” that are under the embrace of God’s rahmah even those people who are punished, so that even divine punishment can be said to proceed in some way from rahmah. [It’s through punishments and afflictions do we realize that we have crossed the natural boundaries of our existence. This, in turn, brings about a sense of awareness and self-knowledge, which in turn enables one to return to the middle and the balanced path where there is contentment and peace.]

For humans, God’s rahmah and rafah are manifested, for example, in His abundant forgiveness and in the creation of the environment in which humans live, an environment that they can use to their great benefit (22:65; 30:50 etc.). They are also manifested in the revelations sent by God through His messengers (2:154; 11:17; 11:53), [as through this Divine guidance, we come to know God and the natural boundaries He has created within which there is a maximum chance for our spiritual growth].

The coming of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is especially a manifestation of God’s rahmah and rafah (57:9; 6:155). He came as rahmat-al-lil-alamin (grace to all nations) and the revelation he brought is rahmah for all those who believe (10:57; 17:82 etc.).



Dr Ahmad said that one must love Mohammed to practice Islam He’s also a supporter of the Gospel of Barnabas. Can you find for me an original Islam the teacher rather than this modern scholar. Not convincing Hasantas.

Peace be with you

MJ
 
Sure. A major claim of the Catholic Church, is that she possesses Sacred Tradition and Apostolic Succession; which is equivalent to the Hadith and Sunnah in Islam.
SalamKhan, I have great respect for your studies on Islam and I am sure your faith journey is one that would be of interest to many - I hope you can share it one day if it does prejudice your position in your society or your laws (it is not indicated where you are from).

While I am sure you did not intend to misstate the above point and your subsequent paragraphs seem to indicate your proper understanding, please permit me to correct the oft-repeated statement above.

The Sacred Tradition and Apostolic Succession is NOT the equivalent to the Hadith and Sunnah. In fact, the nature of relationship between Sacred Tradition with scriptures is radically different and may indeed be opposite to the nature of the relationship of the Hadith with scriptures.

So it benefits this thread to give my two cents worth. Please feel free to correct if you think wrong.

Relationship between Hadith and Quran
First, the Quran is deemed irrefutably authentic (sahih) but the Hadiths are not automatically authentic. Each Hadith has to be evaluated for consistency with the Quran and some have been found wanting.

There is only one Quran but many collections of Hadiths (in all I understand there to be 30,000) used by difference schools. From which different schools of Syaria jurisprudence spring. So, one can say Syaria is based on the Hadiths (second-ranked not necessarily authentic scriptures) and not on the Quran (authentic scriptures directly and personally written by God).

The Quran always came first, whether as the first reading by Mohammad in Hira cave and subsequent oral recitation to his literate friends (according to Muslim traditions) or as later compilations under the succeeding caliphs. The Hadiths came later as supplements to illustrate how Mohammad came to apply certain Quranic concepts in specific life situations. Some are straight-forward judicial judgements by Mohammad, some are sayings by and stories about Mohammad. While others are extended speculations on certain verses in the Quran which ends up stating things the Quran did not say (eg., 72 virgins providing sexual favours to each martyr in paradise).

Therefore it is important to remember that the Hadiths can only be read in the context of the Quran. Only the Quran can be read in itself as it is written by God himself.

Relationship between Sacred Traditions and the Bible
First, the Sacred Traditions and the Bible are both equally authentic as revelations of God, both being preserved from error by the Holy Spirit. If anything, the Bible is a subset of the Sacred Traditions.

The Sacred Traditions in the Catholic Church came first, before the Bible (here I leave out OT, which has a different canonic history). The Sacred Traditions have its genesis in the teachings of Jesus to his Apostles and then subsequently handed down the generations via the Apostolic Succession. When these oral traditions came to be written, the Church determined which of these written writings are consistent with the Sacred Traditions handed to her from the Apostles. Those writings selected became the NT canon. Btw, the selection was not made by committees over a few meetings but by acceptance in particular churches reading and hearing these writings at liturgies over a few centuries. You can say that the Bible is the written part of the oral tradition which the Church found to be consistent with the teachings of Jesus entrusted to her. There were many more writings that the faithful in the Church rejected from inclusion in the canon: a cursory reading would explain why they were rejected.

Therefore, the Bible can only be read in context of the Sacred Traditions as preserved by the Church. You cannot read the Bible without the interpretation of the Church as the Church was the one which decided to include into the Bible that passage you were reading in the first place.

So in conclusion, both Islam and Christianity started with words. In Islam, it is a book that God wrote and gave to Mohammad. In Christianity, it is the Word spoken (at the moment of creation of the universe and) in the teachings of Jesus to his Apostles (=Sacred Traditions). Everything else came later.
 
While I am sure you did not intend to misstate the above point and your subsequent paragraphs seem to indicate your proper understanding, please permit me to correct the oft-repeated statement above.

The Sacred Tradition and Apostolic Succession is NOT the equivalent to the Hadith and Sunnah. In fact, the nature of relationship between Sacred Tradition with scriptures is radically different and may indeed be opposite to the nature of the relationship of the Hadith with scriptures.

So it benefits this thread to give my two cents worth. Please feel free to correct if you think wrong.

Relationship between Hadith and Quran
First, the Quran is deemed irrefutably authentic (sahih) but the Hadiths are not automatically authentic. Each Hadith has to be evaluated for consistency with the Quran and some have been found wanting.

There is only one Quran but many collections of Hadiths (in all I understand there to be 30,000) used by difference schools. From which different schools of Syaria jurisprudence spring. So, one can say Syaria is based on the Hadiths (second-ranked not necessarily authentic scriptures) and not on the Quran (authentic scriptures directly and personally written by God).

The Quran always came first, whether as the first reading by Mohammad in Hira cave and subsequent oral recitation to his literate friends (according to Muslim traditions) or as later compilations under the succeeding caliphs. The Hadiths came later as supplements to illustrate how Mohammad came to apply certain Quranic concepts in specific life situations. Some are straight-forward judicial judgements by Mohammad, some are sayings by and stories about Mohammad. While others are extended speculations on certain verses in the Quran which ends up stating things the Quran did not say (eg., 72 virgins providing sexual favours to each martyr in paradise).

Therefore it is important to remember that the Hadiths can only be read in the context of the Quran. Only the Quran can be read in itself as it is written by God himself.

So in conclusion, both Islam and Christianity started with words. In Islam, it is a book that God wrote and gave to Mohammad. In Christianity, it is the Word spoken (at the moment of creation of the universe and) in the teachings of Jesus to his Apostles (=Sacred Traditions). Everything else came later.
You are correct, it is not the equivalent, but similar, and I was mistaken in using the word ‘equivalent’.

As for the relationship between the Quran and Hadith, it depends on the theological schools.

Near enough every Sunni Muslim scholar agrees that to reject any mutawatir Hadith would take one out of the fold of Sunni Islam.

According to the Athari-Hanbali and Ash`ari schools, the Quran does not abrogate the Sunnah. This belief is rooted in the Quran (Surah 53:3-4).

On the other hand, according to the principle of an early scholar known as Imam Abu Hanifa, who influenced the Mu`tazilite (heretical) and Maturidi (orthodox) schools:

If you find your answer pertaining to a certain matter in the Quran, then look no further than the Quran pertaining that matter. But if you did not find your answer in the Quran, look to the Hadith, and look no further should you find your answer. But if you did not find your answer in the Hadith, seek out the learned ones (the scholars), and look not further should you find your answer.

Here are some verses from the Bible and the Quran which may be of interest.

Who also hath made us fit ministers of the new testament, not in the letter, but in the spirit. For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth.” -2 Corinthians 3:6

Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous
Who taught by the pen
Taught man that which he knew not.
” -Surah 96:3-5
 
Here are some verses from the Bible and the Quran which may be of interest.

Who also hath made us fit ministers of the new testament, not in the letter, but in the spirit. For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth.” -2 Corinthians 3:6

Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous
Who taught by the pen

Taught man that which he knew not.” -Surah 96:3-5
Thanks SalamKhan

Due to my ministry, I am always interested in the difference between Muslims and Christianity. Especially it pertains to deep seated mindsets that underpin different basis of religions.

I would like to hear your views on the two verses you quoted as it seems it to reflect different ideas of what religions ought to be
 
Thanks SalamKhan

Due to my ministry, I am always interested in the difference between Muslims and Christianity. Especially it pertains to deep seated mindsets that underpin different basis of religions.

I would like to hear your views on the two verses you quoted as it seems it to reflect different ideas of what religions ought to be
I just thought it was an interesting contrast between how the two religions view Divine Revelation.

In Islam, you have in the first instance of Revelation, the Angel Gabriel instructing Muhammad, an illiterate man, to read, and to which Muhammad replied that he did not know how. This illiterate man then began preaching something apparently intended to be written, but his main audience and opponents were also illiterate.

Ubadah ibn As-Samit reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, say, “Verily, the first to be created by Allah was the pen. Allah told it to write, so it wrote what will exist until forever.”

Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 3319

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to At-Tirmidhi

This is perhaps why Jews and Christians are referred to as “people of the book”, and why Muslims today expect Jews and Christians to possess scriptures to be free of any textual deficiency, otherwise they must be rejected altogether, regardless of whether the content of Modern Bibles for the most part agree with Ancient Manuscripts or not.

In Christianity, you have the Word of God made flesh, a literate man named Jesus, preaching, not to an audience entirely literate, but his main opponents were definitely literate. Not only that, but he instituted a Living Magisterium, whom he commanded to teach all nations, he did not command them to write.

So where does written scripture fit into the Christian view of Revelation? St. John Chrysostom explains:

"*We really shouldn’t need the help of the written texts; we should be able to display such a clean lifestyle, that the grace of the Holy Spirit would act directly onto our hearts. Just as books are inscribed by ink, that is how our hearts should be inscribed by the Spirit. But, since we have distanced ourselves from this grace, let us accept this second alternative with appreciation.

That the previous conditions were much better, is evident in both the Old as well as the New Testaments. In the Old Testament, God didn’t address the patriarchs and the prophets with written texts, but spoke to them directly, because He found their hearts to be pure. But, because the Hebrews sunk into depths of malice, written texts and stone tablets became necessary.

The same applied in the age of the New Testament. The Lord gave the Apostles nothing in writing, but He promised to give them -in place of a text- the grace of the Holy Spirit: “He (the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete) will teach you everything and will remind you of everything that I told you” (John 14:26). Paul had also said that he had received the law, “not on stone tablets, but on the tablets of our fleshy hearts” (Corinthians II, 3:3). But because people were again drawn towards evil, it was necessary to provide reminders in written form.

You must therefore perceive how great an evil it is – even now – that this second medication is not being utilized: by whom? By us, who are supposed to live such pure lives, that we shouldn’t need any written texts.*"

Source: oodegr.co/english//biblia/parad1/kef1.htm
 
I just thought it was an interesting contrast between how the two religions view Divine Revelation.

In Islam, you have in the first instance of Revelation, the Angel Gabriel instructing Muhammad, an illiterate man, to read, and to which Muhammad replied that he did not know how. This illiterate man then began preaching something apparently intended to be written, but his main audience and opponents were also illiterate.

Ubadah ibn As-Samit reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, say, “Verily, the first to be created by Allah was the pen. Allah told it to write, so it wrote what will exist until forever.”

Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 3319

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to At-Tirmidhi

This is perhaps why Jews and Christians are referred to as “people of the book”, and why Muslims today expect Jews and Christians to possess scriptures to be free of any textual deficiency, otherwise they must be rejected altogether, regardless of whether the content of Modern Bibles for the most part agree with Ancient Manuscripts or not.

In Christianity, you have the Word of God made flesh, a literate man named Jesus, preaching, not to an audience entirely literate, but his main opponents were definitely literate. Not only that, but he instituted a Living Magisterium, whom he commanded to teach all nations, he did not command them to write.

So where does written scripture fit into the Christian view of Revelation? St. John Chrysostom explains:

"*We really shouldn’t need the help of the written texts; we should be able to display such a clean lifestyle, that the grace of the Holy Spirit would act directly onto our hearts. Just as books are inscribed by ink, that is how our hearts should be inscribed by the Spirit. But, since we have distanced ourselves from this grace, let us accept this second alternative with appreciation.

That the previous conditions were much better, is evident in both the Old as well as the New Testaments. In the Old Testament, God didn’t address the patriarchs and the prophets with written texts, but spoke to them directly, because He found their hearts to be pure. But, because the Hebrews sunk into depths of malice, written texts and stone tablets became necessary.

The same applied in the age of the New Testament. The Lord gave the Apostles nothing in writing, but He promised to give them -in place of a text- the grace of the Holy Spirit: “He (the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete) will teach you everything and will remind you of everything that I told you” (John 14:26). Paul had also said that he had received the law, “not on stone tablets, but on the tablets of our fleshy hearts” (Corinthians II, 3:3). But because people were again drawn towards evil, it was necessary to provide reminders in written form.

You must therefore perceive how great an evil it is – even now – that this second medication is not being utilized: by whom? By us, who are supposed to live such pure lives, that we shouldn’t need any written texts.*"

Source: oodegr.co/english//biblia/parad1/kef1.htm
It seems to me Islam gives more importance to written things rather than praying and teaching.

MJ
 
It seems to me Islam gives more importance to written things rather than praying and teaching.

MJ
Hey Martin, you know that is too sweeping a statement.:)🙂

Thanks SalamKhan, I am thinking in the same direction but let me throw in a few few points that offer some context to such differences. I hope I can explain it without sounding too condescending.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam emerged form the midst of very different social forces.

Judaism
Judaism emerged at a time when legal codes became a mark of civilisation. Abraham’s life was likely co-temporal with the Code of Hamurabi, give or take a century or so. Having a legal code like the Code of Hamurabi was a goal of any nation seeking to be considered civilised. It is therefore no surprise then that there was such pride in the emerging Jewish nation in it having its own legal code of Moses developed a few centuries later.

Emerging after such legal codes become widespread, it is easy for the Jewish nation to incorporate the reception of the legal code into its own founding story, imbued with the divine origins of that founding story. The effect of this link between the legal code and divine founding story is that the Jewish legal code became unchangeable (as many things religious become) and is intended to be followed as an end in itself (as opposed to codes developed from secular legal reasons - they are followed in the context of the legal question it was intended to answer).

This led to the Orthodox Jewish ideas in Judaism. Of course today other social pressures, many of which shared with Christianity has led to the emergence of Progressive Judaism.

Islam
Mohammad lived in an Arabia which is largely illiterate, where it is accepted for a merchant such as Mohammad to be illiterate (though I must say I am not convinced of Mohammad himself being illiterate). It is also separated from ‘civilised’ lands but still receiving enough refugees from the Roman and Persian Empires that ideas from other lands do percolate through. Having few bearers of these ideas though, each of those few bearers carry disproportionate influence on the ideas in Arabia, together with any heresy, misunderstanding or personal views that the bearer of the idea may have. Ideas are often received without other competing views. Jews and Christian heretics fleeing the catholic orthodox church in the Roman Empire abound in Arabia

Arabia was also a violent land in those days which I have no doubt Islam has played no small role in moderating. In such an environment, coupled with the widespread illiteracy, one would not expect many intellectual debates of any kind ending well. Islamic theological discussions were largely absent in Mohammad days and only became widespread after Muslims settled in the cities they have conquered.

So, limited literacy, limited framework of intellectual debates means a society not yet matured to exalt a legal code but would exalt basic literacy itself - yet have received from outside the idea of a divine legal code to be followed in itself and not for legal juridical reasons. Hence the emphasis on the written word and recitation of an unchangeable text.

Christianity
In Jesus’ Palestine there were two key factors I would find relevant to this discussion. First is the high level of literacy among Jewish males, many of whom were taught to read the Torah by the local rabbis. Literacy was high enough for men to be able to apply and quote scriptures in specific everyday situations without having to refer to clergy.

However, Jews are not masters in their own land. Pax Romana imposes a peace on behalf of a Jewish kingdom, legitimacy of which is not fully accepted by the Jewish people. This lack of legitimacy gives rise to a number of competing ideas of what constitute a Jewish state and bearing in mind the divine nature of the founding story, there were also a number of competing ideas on doctrines (note scribes, Pharisees, Saducees, the priestly class etc). However, none of the debates over such competing ideas turn violent due to the moderating presence of the Roman legions.

So, Christianity was born in a time where high literacy and a framework for peaceful doctrinal debates sharpen the use of words to correctly reflect what you mean - using the wrong words to represent your ideas is a quick way to lose a debate. People learn to articulate their thoughts and words became vehicles for ideas, which became more exalted over the words.

At a risk of oversimplification, the social forces that shape their birth led religions to exalt different things:

Judaism - the Law
Islam - the written word
Christianity - the idea and concept

I am not saying what is right/wrong or which is better/superior but merely stating what I see to be the facts of how we got here.

Let me know your thoughts on what I have presented and feel free to critique it. Does it make sense?
 
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