Question for Muslims about the radicals who use the name

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Booklover:
BALONEY! MOHAMMED’S MESSAGE IS IN NO WAY COMPARABLE TO JESUS’! SHOW US THE “PROOF” THAT HE WAS A “PROPHET”! HE CERTAINLY DIDN’T ACT LIKE ANY OF THE REAL PROPHETS. THEY DIDN’T GO AROUND KILLING PEOPLE LIKE HE DID.
Hello Booklover,

I dont believe you’ve ever read about the life of the Prophet Muhammad. Because if you did, you couldn’t make the statement you did above. The Prophet died in a straw hut with nothing to his name, except his children.

PS - Moses, David and a whole slew of Jewish Prophets killed many many people.

Munawar
 
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GregoryPalamas:
You take obvious situations of brutality and pretend that they are harmless and benign.
and where have i done this? i asked you for the “documents upon documents showing entire jewish and christian towns were wiped out or the people were systematically killed by Muslims before the people ‘converted’ to even begin to take seriously your denial that such happened.” you haven’t shown any, nor have i personally seen any of these “documents upon documents” what i have come across however, is propagation from people attacking the religion on various obviously biased anti-islamic sites. so how is that pretending anything???

everything i’ve read in regards to the spread of islam, from encyclopedias to history books by muslim historians i’ve found nothing wrong with. whereas i can’t say the same for the stuff i’ve read from similar sources regarding the spread of christianity in certain parts of the world… not that i want to get into a “you did this… you did that” type of discussion, but the simple fact is, i asked to see this documentation you spoke of. so far, all you’ve given me are two links to sites that have an obvious connection with each other.
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GregoryPalamas:
I don’t know if you are willing to read but I have suggested several titles. If you live in America you have the wonderful privilege of a vast and broad education. I pray that you avail yourself of it. If not there are still books you can read.

Whether or not you and other Muslims on this thread like to read books I will suggest a couple of website that you and anyone else might wish to explore.
i read quite a bit. and no, i don’t live in america… i’ll check out the two sites you linked to, and see if what’s mentioned in them is credible and verifiable information.
 
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Munawar:
Hi Manx,

Every battle the Prophet Muhammad fought, was against foes who had attacked him first.

Never did the Prophet enter a land except that they had attacked him first.

Munawar
YOU MUST BE JOKING! BALONEY! WE ALL WEREN’T BORN YESTERDAY, YOU KNOW. THAT’S A PACK OF LIES AND YOU KNOW IT.:rotfl: PLEASE STOP INSULTING OUR INTELLIGENCE! HA, HA, HA, HA!
 
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Booklover:
YOU MUST BE JOKING! BALONEY! WE ALL WEREN’T BORN YESTERDAY, YOU KNOW. THAT’S A PACK OF LIES AND YOU KNOW IT.:rotfl: PLEASE STOP INSULTING OUR INTELLIGENCE! HA, HA, HA, HA!
Hello Booklover,

Read any mainstream biography of the Prophet and you will know I am right.

Bring your proof if you still deny what I am saying.

Munawar
 
Booklover,

Either they are lying or they are brainwashed. I don’t believe much in brainwashing so I’m left with the first conclusion. Is there any point in discussing Islam with these people who have so often told us things that are not true?

Dan L
 
The Muslims on this board seem to genuinely respect the idea of peace. That, I think, we can take as truth. Both sides agree that peace is something we should wish to attain.

I believe it is a bit disingenuous to say, however, that Islam doesn’t propogate itself through violence. I understand the argument that it’s not true Islam to make violence, but that only sinful Muslims commit such crimes. However, the violence of Islam is everywhere. I have personally heard a speech from a man whose parents were murdered, and he was taken hostage by Muslim invaders in the Sudan. This man was then a slave for ten years and had to endure daily beatings, infrequent meals, and everything else that comes along with being a slave. The reason the murder of his parents and his slavery were justified, because his village/family were animists, i.e. they were infidels.

I like to read what the Muslim’s posting here are saying with charity, and I deeply respect Muslim piety. Many Catholics could learn a lot about reverence for God from Muslims. However, it is a bit disheartening to have Muslims come on the board and say that Islam is not continually committing acts of violence throughout the world without remorse. How can we ever have a dialague about the truth when we ignore history, or even the present. If we are concerned with the truth, we would have to say that Islam is still perpetrating crimes against humanity, and sees it as justifiable. You could say that Christians are committing crimes against humanity, say in Northern Ireland, but there is a difference, the violence is condemned. It’s not ignored, glossed over, or embraced, as Muslims in the Middle East tend to support the violence their fellows are committing.

The lack of religious freedom in Muslim countries is frightening. I have a professor who said he went to Turkey, a so called “moderate” Muslim country. He said the Catholic Church that he visited had ten foot walls all around it to protect against violence and vandalism. He said that the priest couldn’t even leave the safety of the church to get groceries, as his safety would be in jeapordy. If the Muslim’s on this board are actually concerned with truth, explain to me why a human being would have to fear being in public by virtue of what religion he practices? And this in a moderate Islamic country with a secular government.

Another example would be the Mosque that is within two miles of the Vatican. Would a Christian Church be allowed to be built anywhere near Mecca? I have heard of Muslims saying, “we will use your freedom to destroy you.” That doesn’t sound peaceful to me.

Finally, I don’t mean this to be accusatory, but if we are genuinely concerned with the truth, we will admit our faults, or the faults of our religion. Here are some passages directly from the Koran that I think contradict the idea of Islam being for peace (this is not to say that many Muslims don’t support the idea of peace, for instance, Faith101) but the principles of the faith seem to contradict this truth. From the Koran:

Believers, take neither Jews nor the Christians for your friends. (5:51)

Tell the unbelievers that if they mend their ways their past shall be forgiven…Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme. (8:39)

When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them… Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. (9:5)
 
I’ve also read that Islam says that when God created the world, he baked mankind to create him. Blacks were overcooked, whites undercooked, and Arabs cooked just right. Is this true, because if it is it sounds racist to me.

Is it true that Muhammed took a 9 year old girl for his wife?

Is it also true that Muhammed lusted after his daughter in law (while his son was away proselytizing) and so he conveniently had a vision that said he was to marry his daughter in law? I’ve read this too.

I’ve also read that Muhammed traveled to Jerusalem to convert the Jews, and when they were not receptive of him, he conveniently had a vision that said Muslims were to kill Jews. Is this true?

Is it true that Muhammad was not accepted in Mecca, so he went to other small towns around the area to gain followers. Once he had those followers, that he began sacking merchants traveling in and out of the city? Is it true that once he gained power and influence, he sacked Mecca, and rejoiced when the head of the political leader of the time was brought to him? I’ve read all of this in the book Sword of the Prophet. Obviously, the author of this book does not take a kind reading of Islam, so in the interests of charity, and dialectic, could you tell me where his history is wrong. I’m willing to listen, as I’m not saying Sword of the Prophet is the end all.

Also, I don’t want you to think I am insulting your religion, as I said in the previous post, I have deep respect for the pious nature of those who follow Allah. I merely want to gain perspective, and maybe the history Trifkovic gives in his book is wrong. Please show me where he is misguided, or if the facts he presents are taken out of context.
 
Here is an answer to one of your questions:

karamah.org/docs/dakake_misappropriations.doc

Ok for another question, this is coming off the top of my head; the prophet (saw) did not marry his daughter-in-law. what happened was this , the prophet(saw) did not have any sons only daughters, the boy in question ( I forgot his name) was a salve in the house that the prophet(saw) grew up in. The prophet cared so much for the boy that he freed him and gave him the choice of staying with him and his family or going back home to his family. The boy loved the prophet’s household so much he decided to stay and live with them. So then the prophet adopted the boy as his own son. Islamicaly you are commanded to look after the orphaned and the widowed, they have a right to your financial and emotional support. in Islam a married woman does not take her husband last name because she is her own person, likewise for the orphans, they do not receive the last name of the family they live with(the family acts in no way different to the orphan then their own children but the orphan has their own family name and identity). To prove this point, the boy who is a man now and his wife could no longer get along and in the end it was best that they divorce
I believe, in Islam a man can not marry his daughter-in-law, to prove the point that despite having to look after the orphan with kindness, they are not legal member of your family because they have their own family, the prophet married the girl.

I find more answers to the rest of your question.

Wa salam
 
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fatuma:
Here is an answer to one of your questions:

karamah.org/docs/dakake_misappropriations.doc

Ok for another question, this is coming off the top of my head; the prophet (saw) did not marry his daughter-in-law. what happened was this , the prophet(saw) did not have any sons only daughters, the boy in question ( I forgot his name) was a salve in the house that the prophet(saw) grew up in. The prophet cared so much for the boy that he freed him and gave him the choice of staying with him and his family or going back home to his family. The boy loved the prophet’s household so much he decided to stay and live with them. So then the prophet adopted the boy as his own son. Islamicaly you are commanded to look after the orphaned and the widowed, they have a right to your financial and emotional support. in Islam a married woman does not take her husband last name because she is her own person, likewise for the orphans, they do not receive the last name of the family they live with(the family acts in no way different to the orphan then their own children but the orphan has their own family name and identity). To prove this point, the boy who is a man now and his wife could no longer get along and in the end it was best that they divorce
I believe, in Islam a man can not marry his daughter-in-law, to prove the point that despite having to look after the orphan with kindness, they are not legal member of your family because they have their own family, the prophet married the girl.

I find more answers to the rest of your question.

Wa salam
I read the link, thank you for posting it. 5:51 is clarified for me, although I still have trouble with it even if it says guardians, as in English, that makes little sense. Also, it makes me wonder why the Muslims in the time of the prophet had so many enemies, since the area around Medina seemed to have tribal qualities. Christians were persecuted because it was viewed as a threat to Judaism, and in Rome in became atheism, since it wasn’t part of the state religion.

Also, this source seems to be academic, but there is no citation as to where the author is getting his translation information. For all I know, he could have made it up (I don’t pretend to be an expert in Arabic, but usually when somebody makes claims such as his, they have academic sources backing their claims up.)

Also, verse 9:5 in the Koran, I don’t have a problem with who it advocates killing, as the author claims that it doesn’t claim to kill Jews or Christians. That does not bother me, not who, but the fact that it actually advocates killing. That bothers me, as it violates the natural law.

As for marrying the orphan son’s ex-wife, we Catholics believe that “in the beginning it was not so,” i.e. divorce is against God’s commands. Doesn’t it seem fishy to you that Muhammad had so much temporal authority? Also, if he was truly a man of God, why would he have a concubine? Wouldn’t he forego the luxuries of this world to be truly holy?

To me, this is why Christ is so convincing. He could have been a warlord, He could have had as many women as there are stars, he could have been rich, powerful, and take everything this world has to offer. If that were the case with Him, I would not believe His divinity, for then He would be as weak as the rest of us. But He was unblemished, and the promises of this world did not appeal to Him. He had no sin. He live poorly. He died a torturous death. (In fact there were others in Jerusalem at the time, can’t remember the name, who claimed to be the Messiah and started an insurrection that Rome put down. Again, too worldly to be Messianic.)

Don’t you find Muhammad’s behavior a bit temporal for him to be divinely inspired? He seemed to be too infatuated with this world to be a man of God. Don’t get me wrong, I think Muhammad taught some truth, but from what I’ve read it doesn’t seem that he lived it. As the aphorism goes, “the devil will give you an ocean of truth, if he can give you one drop that’s a lie.”

Also, how does the story of creation go for Muslims? Is it the same as our book of Genesis?
 
The reason why the early muslims had so many enemies was because islam was a threat to the people that rules Mecca. The entire economic backbone of the whole city dependent on their religion of polytheism, a monotheistic religion would have bankrupted them. The city’s only resource was the pilgrims and caravans that came through Mecca to visit the kahbah were all the idols were held. If they started to believe in one God, they would no longer be rich.

Divorce is a form of mercy onto mankind. Divorce is one of the worst non-haram thing that God dislikes the most. In islam there are safe guards to stop a divorce or to make the couple really think about their situation before the divorce. God understands that in certain situations people will not get alone, this is a way out in order to protect themselves and their religion

Wa salam
 
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GregoryPalamas:
No need to. You claimed that Muhammad was not violent because Americans are converting. Prove the connection.

Muhammad was a very violent warrior. There’s no secret about that. Many towns converted without too much bloodshed but many that didn’t convert found themselves at the end of the sword at M’s hand.

Read: Bat Ye’or, “The Dhimmi” or “The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam.”

Now prove Muhammad’s connection to America.

Dan L

The Ottomans, Seljuks and others - such as are described here:​

fordham.edu/halsall/source/conqspain.html

spread Islam by the sword.

Mehmet the Conqueror did not ask for the keys of Constantinople - he besieged it, and it has been Turkish ever since. Then he went westwards, and in 1480 laid siege to, and sacked, Otranto. Which is why there are 800 martyrs of Otranto to honour - the bishop was sawn in half; the rest were impaled.

As well as the sufferings of countries in Eastern Europe, there are those of Hungary, which was attacked by the peace-loving Muslims in 1526. Lepanto (1571) and the siege of Vienna (1683) didn’t occur without a certain measure of Muslim participation

This site has more information:

fordham.edu/halsall/islam/islamsbook.html

Christian Martyrs in Muslim Spain:

libro.uca.edu/martyrs/martyrs.htm
 
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JP2Admirer:
The Muslims on this board seem to genuinely respect the idea of peace. That, I think, we can take as truth. Both sides agree that peace is something we should wish to attain.

I believe it is a bit disingenuous to say, however, that Islam doesn’t propogate itself through violence. I understand the argument that it’s not true Islam to make violence, but that only sinful Muslims commit such crimes. However, the violence of Islam is everywhere. I have personally heard a speech from a man whose parents were murdered, and he was taken hostage by Muslim invaders in the Sudan. This man was then a slave for ten years and had to endure daily beatings, infrequent meals, and everything else that comes along with being a slave. The reason the murder of his parents and his slavery were justified, because his village/family were animists, i.e. they were infidels.

I like to read what the Muslim’s posting here are saying with charity, and I deeply respect Muslim piety. Many Catholics could learn a lot about reverence for God from Muslims. However, it is a bit disheartening to have Muslims come on the board and say that Islam is not continually committing acts of violence throughout the world without remorse. How can we ever have a dialague about the truth when we ignore history, or even the present. If we are concerned with the truth, we would have to say that Islam is still perpetrating crimes against humanity, and sees it as justifiable. You could say that Christians are committing crimes against humanity, say in Northern Ireland, but there is a difference, the violence is condemned. It’s not ignored, glossed over, or embraced, as Muslims in the Middle East tend to support the violence their fellows are committing.

The lack of religious freedom in Muslim countries is frightening. I have a professor who said he went to Turkey, a so called “moderate” Muslim country. He said the Catholic Church that he visited had ten foot walls all around it to protect against violence and vandalism. He said that the priest couldn’t even leave the safety of the church to get groceries, as his safety would be in jeapordy. If the Muslim’s on this board are actually concerned with truth, explain to me why a human being would have to fear being in public by virtue of what religion he practices? And this in a moderate Islamic country with a secular government.

Turkey is interesting - Catholic churches of different Rites are perfectly legal (as is the Orthodox Patriarchate there :)); however, Catholic priests at least are not allowed by law to dress in public as priests - or weren’t in 1992; thanks to the avowedly secular character of the state, I presume: Kemal Ataturk - who is immensely revered in Turkey - had that idea.​

Another example would be the Mosque that is within two miles of the Vatican. Would a Christian Church be allowed to be built anywhere near Mecca? I have heard of Muslims saying, “we will use your freedom to destroy you.” That doesn’t sound peaceful to me.

Finally, I don’t mean this to be accusatory, but if we are genuinely concerned with the truth, we will admit our faults, or the faults of our religion. Here are some passages directly from the Koran that I think contradict the idea of Islam being for peace (this is not to say that many Muslims don’t support the idea of peace, for instance, Faith101) but the principles of the faith seem to contradict this truth. From the Koran:

Believers, take neither Jews nor the Christians for your friends. (5:51)

Tell the unbelievers that if they mend their ways their past shall be forgiven…Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme. (8:39)

When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them… Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. (9:5)

I don’t think Christians count as idolaters - but as “people of the Book”: as do the Jews.​

 
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true2one:
The truth is, Mohammed (Pbuh) was spreading Islam in peace. As people started WILLINGLY to follow him, the kings and priests were so upset and started to attack Mohammed (Pbuh) and his followers. Innocent women and children who reverted were slaughtered so there was no other way than to raise the sword to protect the innocent.
Naturally, noone could stop or kill prophet Mohammed, and the only way to stop people from reverting is to turn the facts around, that Mohammed (Pbuh) attacked first to gain followers. That’s the short version.
A big lie also.

As for the people in the countries mentioned, let us visit one country at a time.
Middle East: Any government can be greedy of power, not just in the middle east.
Seems the Middle East has only one true democracy and that is Israel. The home of Islam has the largest percentage of non-democratic governments of any place on earth. Could this be in part the responsibility of Islam?

Indonesia: there is no big issue there except for the corrupt government and that Christians are trying to convert Muslims in a scrupulous kind of way.
As long as the Christians are being scrupulous, what is the problem? Again could Islam be part of the corrupt government problem? IMO, the answer is yes.

Philippines: Misguided extremists trying to “change” the world.
Where are the leaders of Islam who are raising the voices and having mass demonstrations against these so call extremists? IMO, they are mainstream Islam.

Bosnia: Minorities (Muslims) slaughtered/ethnical cleansing.
For what I have read there are plenty of atrocities on both sides. The Christians look at it as ‘pay back’ for what the Ottoman Empire did to them.

Pakistan: border issue and arms race with india
Most of the violence is coming from Pakistan and what does India have to do with the hiding of ben Laden by tribes in Pakistan? The people in the mountains of Pakistan support him and are willing to die for his brand of Islam.

Afghanistan: Muslim extremists that even Islam oppose of.
I don’t remember seeing any big headlines or demonstrations against the Talaban in the Muslim world. Don’t just make up stuff and expect it to be accepted as truth.

Naming religion for their misconducts.
ETC, ETC, ETC…
Islam is responsible for most of the atrocities and wars in the world today. It is a fact and your denial of it will not change it. Truth is truth.
 
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fatuma:
There is no central place of muslim rule any more on this earth like the catholics have with the vatican. When someone stands on their soapbox and starts saying whatever they what, there is no offical central body that can stop them.
Kinda makes you want to be Catholic! We are ONE Church; begun by Jesus; infallible through the Grace of God.

God Bless,

Donna :getholy:
 
Donna P:
Kinda makes you want to be Catholic! We are ONE Church; begun by Jesus; infallible through the Grace of God.

God Bless,

Donna :getholy:
Amen! Amen! :amen:
 
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