Question for Muslims

[dzheremi]

I am sure many people asked the same question about Catholics during the Inquisition…

As they would have been right to ask. Just as people were right to ask when the mob led by Peter the Reader killed Hypatia, or when Hindu extremists of the BJP threw acid in the faces of little girls in Orissa, or in any number of instances when people formed into religion-based mobs do terrible things. If we don’t want to be tools for evil (in the form of the ridiculous, terrorism-exonerating idea that all religions are essentially the same on the question of violence, having good and bad and in-between people in them), then we can’t simply issue blanket condemnation or exoneration of people, but we have to look at the circumstances in which they behave the way that they do, measured against what their religions actually tell them to do in the instances when they’re all riled up. I sleep soundly at night knowing that my religion in no way calls for the murder of an unbeliever who gets in the way of the reconciliation of my people to a secular ruler (i.e., why “the Copts” killed Hypatia), and in fact teaches directly against it (to obey rulers, to render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, etc). If Muslims sleep soundly with all of the violence going on in the name of ensuring “respect” for their religion, is it because they know it’s wrong, or is it because they’re sure that they’re ultimately right, even if one group does something they wouldn’t personally do? (i.e., that the end goal that there be no more strife and all religion be for Allah is still right, but all of this bluntness in going about it might actually hurt that goal)

Because, I’m sorry, I have Muslim friends too, but I can tell that the difference between my friends and these other people isn’t that one is a “true” Muslim and the other one is not – it’s that one neglects the duty to fight (remember “fighting is proscribed to you, though ye dislike it”?) and the other does not…even if what they’re “fighting” is a stupid Youtube video which everyone agrees is terrible. What brave men!

And also, to reiterate: there are hundreds (maybe even thousands) of Youtube videos that are JUST as offensive to me as a Christian as the “Innocence of Muslims” video is to Muslims. I don’t buy that Muslims have extra feelings, so why could we realize that they’d be SO hurt and blahblahblahblahblah…they have the same feelings, the exact same (a Muslim is not made of different stuff than the rest of us, no matter how much their book tells them they’re the greatest people ever) – they just don’t have any way to control the passions, because Muhammad was not a good example of that himself.

Quit giving these nutcases rope…you do that, and they’ll hang the whole world with it.

 

[TexanKnight]

As they would have been right to ask. Just as people were right to ask when the mob led by Peter the Reader killed Hypatia, or when Hindu extremists of the BJP threw acid in the faces of little girls in Orissa, or in any number of instances when people formed into religion-based mobs do terrible things. If we don’t want to be tools for evil (in the form of the ridiculous, terrorism-exonerating idea that all religions are essentially the same on the question of violence, having good and bad and in-between people in them), then we can’t simply issue blanket condemnation or exoneration of people, but we have to look at the circumstances in which they behave the way that they do, measured against what their religions actually tell them to do in the instances when they’re all riled up. I sleep soundly at night knowing that my religion in no way calls for the murder of an unbeliever who gets in the way of the reconciliation of my people to a secular ruler (i.e., why “the Copts” killed Hypatia), and in fact teaches directly against it (to obey rulers, to render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, etc). If Muslims sleep soundly with all of the violence going on in the name of ensuring “respect” for their religion, is it because they know it’s wrong, or is it because they’re sure that they’re ultimately right, even if one group does something they wouldn’t personally do? (i.e., the end goal that there be no more strife and all religion be for Allah)

Because, I’m sorry, I have Muslim friends too, but I can tell that the difference between my friends and these other people isn’t that one is a “true” Muslim and the other one is not – it’s that one neglects the duty to fight (remember “fighting is proscribed to you, though ye dislike it”?) and the other does not…even if what they’re “fighting” is a stupid Youtube video which everyone agrees is terrible. What brave men!

And also, to reiterate: there are hundreds (maybe even thousands) of Youtube videos that are JUST as offensive to me as a Christian as the “Innocence of Muslims” video is to Muslims. I don’t buy that Muslims have extra feelings, so why could we realize that they’d be SO hurt and blahblahblahblahblah…they have the same feelings, the exact same (a Muslim is not made of different stuff than the rest of us, no matter how much their book tells them they’re the greatest people ever) – they just don’t have any way to control the passions, because Muhammad was not a good example of that himself.

Quit giving these nutcases rope…you do that, and they’ll hang the whole world with it.

Wow. Just wow. Can you show me in the Bible where jesus said to stop turning the other cheek? I truly believe I missed that one.

You can pontificate all you want. But radicals have always gotten the news, These guys are no different. They are hated by good Muslims. Did you catch where the radicals were bombing mosques, and then bombing the funerals of those killed in the mosques? Radicals always give the good people a bad name.

 

[dzheremi]

Wow. Just wow. Can you show me in the Bible where jesus said to stop turning the other cheek? I truly believe I missed that one.

I also truly missed where I said anything even slightly related to this.

You can pontificate all you want.

Come to my church and tell my I’m “pontificating”. St. Bishoy COC, Albuquerque. Liturgy starts tomorrow at 8:30 AM. Afterwards, you can ask the people here about their experiences living in Egypt. They can tell you about the Salafi demonstrations calling them “guests” in a Muslim Egypt, and maybe about how a cousin or an aunt was kidnapped, or the aftermath of a family friend’s home being torched by a mob because a Coptic person they’ve never even met had a picture of a Muslim he was dating on his cellphone (except he never actually did; it was another unfounded rumor that led to the displacement of many families), or the destruction of the monastery they had planned to visit. Then you can interrupt them to remind them that not every Muslim on the planet did these things to them. It won’t mean anything, but I’m sure you’ll feel a lot better.

Lord have mercy.

 

[TexanKnight]

I also truly missed where I said anything even slightly related to this.

I quote: Quit giving these nutcases rope…you do that, and they’ll hang the whole world with it.

Spoken like a true follower of Christ.

Come to my church and tell my I’m “pontificating”. St. Bishoy COC, Albuquerque. Liturgy starts tomorrow at 8:30 AM. Afterwards, you can ask the people here about their experiences living in Egypt. They can tell you about the Salafi demonstrations calling them “guests” in a Muslim Egypt, and maybe about how a cousin or an aunt was kidnapped, or the aftermath of a family friend’s home being torched by a mob because a Coptic person they’ve never even met had a picture of a Muslim he was dating on his cellphone (except he never actually did; it was another unfounded rumor that led to the displacement of many families), or the destruction of the monastery they had planned to visit. Then you can interrupt them to remind them that not every Muslim on the planet did these things to them. It won’t mean anything, but I’m sure you’ll feel a lot better.

Give me a break. My three bosses are Muslim. Three of my best friends are Muslim. I have heard it all. One of the docs I deal with was the daughter of the Shah’s top General in Iran. She grew up in a palace. They had to flee when Radical Khomeni took over.

But I am sure your brand of Christ’s love is more satisfying. I know that kind of hate works for radicals.

Lord have mercy.

Yes…on those who hate.

 

[dzheremi]

These people are crazy and want to kill us for being Westerners/non-Muslims = Don’t turn the other cheek? You really need to work on your reading comprehension. I have no idea what post you’re responding to but it’s apparently not mine.

But go ahead and keep being one of Islam’s “useful idiots”…I’m glad you know so many nice Muslims. I do too. Doesn’t make a bit of difference as far as their religion is concerned, so long as the Qur’an (and various things that are extra-Qur’anic, such as the supposed prohibition on depicting Muhammad in any pictorial form) is the immutable word of God and there are people out there who will do the dirty work to make sure it and its figures and narrative are “respected”.

The people who I think really need a break are the Christians in Iraq, Egypt, Tunisia, etc., and moderate/secularist-leaning Muslims of those same areas (several of whom are friends of mine, thank you very much), as they are made to live in fear of this minority of loud, ignorant, violent pigs who protest anything they don’t like (whether they’ve seen it or not) by burning things down and killing people. We’ve already had protests in Egypt over this film where the “cross-worshipers” were told to “leave Islam alone”…funny how the opposite message (that we want to be left alone by the fanatics within the Muslim majority) never seems to reach the people who supposedly have power to influence the masses. Funny how empowered Salafists celebrate death and openly mock us and threaten us.

No, I think your Iranian friend who grew up in the Shah’s palace has had enough breaks. It is time for the people who need them to get them.

 

[TexanKnight]

These people are crazy and want to kill us for being Westerners/non-Muslims = Don’t turn the other cheek? You really need to work on your reading comprehension. I have no idea what post you’re responding to but it’s apparently not mine.

But go ahead and keep being one of Islam’s “useful idiots”…I’m glad you know so many nice Muslims. I do too. Doesn’t make a bit of difference as far as their religion is concerned, so long as the Qur’an (and various things that are extra-Qur’anic, such as the supposed prohibition on depicting Muhammad in any pictorial form) is the immutable word of God and there are people out there who will do the dirty work to make sure it and its figures and narrative are “respected”.

The people who I think really need a break are the Christians in Iraq, Egypt, Tunisia, etc., and moderate/secularist-leaning Muslims of those same areas (several of whom are friends of mine, thank you very much), as they are made to live in fear of this minority of loud, ignorant, violent pigs who protest anything they don’t like (whether they’ve seen it or not) by burning things down and killing people. We’ve already had protests in Egypt over this film where the “cross-worshipers” were told to “leave Islam alone”…funny how the opposite message (that we want to be left alone by the fanatics within the Muslim majority) never seems to reach the people who supposedly have power to influence the masses. Funny how empowered Salafists celebrate death and openly mock us and threaten us.

No, I think your Iranian friend who grew up in the Shah’s palace has had enough breaks. It is time for the people who need them to get them.

I see. I am sorry that your “Christianity” means personal attacks. I am grateful that most Catholics I know are loving. If more Muslims were like the non-radicals and more Catholics less full of hate, the world would be a better place.

 

[TexanKnight]

TexanKnight

I have tried so often to try to overcome the ignorance to no avail but I admire your efforts. There are just a few thousand radicals in the streets across the world what about the more than 1 Billion who are not?! Ignorance is a hard thing to overcome, just like the lure of the Devil - it’s simple and easy to embrace.

yes it is not easy

 

[dzheremi]

I see. I am sorry that your “Christianity” means personal attacks. I am grateful that most Catholics I know are loving. If more Muslims were like the non-radicals and more Catholics less full of hate, the world would be a better place.

Who are you even addressing this to? I am not a Catholic.

It seems once again that we have a confused Christian who takes any opposition to a soul-destroying, violent, blasphemous heresy as “hatred” because some of his friends happen to believe it. Lord have mercy.

I don’t hate your friends. I don’t hate you. I don’t even know you. But I also don’t think that the correct answer to this problem is to dwell on the inquisition or the crusades or whatever in order to make Islam look better by dint of the mistakes of western Christianity. This is not about the inquisition, this is not about what Catholics have done, this is not about anything other than yet another episode in a seemingly endless list in which Muslims en masse show themselves to be completely unwilling to accept even the existence of criticism of their religion or its figures, even when that criticism in question is stupid, amateurish, and cannot possibly be taken seriously as a “threat” to anything other than the fragile ego of the perpetually-wounded archetypal Muslim, who we are told is merely reacting out of pure anger, as if a fussy baby.

Well, I don’t know about you, but i respect Muslims as people a little bit more than to accept such a picture of the world, and if it were true (which it isn’t, but if it were), that would make it even worse for the future of coexistence between Muslims and non-Muslims in this world. But not because of the fault of the Christian. Again, we are not burning anything of theirs, even in Egypt where you’d think (had we the mindset inculcated by Islam) we’d have ample justification to do so.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Closed pending review by moderator Eric Hilbert.

 

[MartinJordan]

Are Joshua, Judges, and the books of Kings and Chronicles not about killing one’s neighbours?

If Islamists believe Jesus was a great prophet I would suppose they also believe in that Jesus said “love one another as I have loved you” and “love your neighbor as yourself”. Is there any Sura conveying same message?

MJ

 

[yukonbrad]

If Islamists believe Jesus was a great prophet I would suppose they also believe in that Jesus said “love one another as I have loved you” and “love your neighbor as yourself”. Is there any Sura conveying same message?

MJ

There are similar meesages. I would give you specific lines but I do hate taking things out of context as many who make negative arguments do. Lets face it we can pull lines out of the bible that contradict the message of Christ as well as so many who attack our faith like to do. What I do recomend is picking up a copy of the Koran and read thru it - a line here or there out of context does not do any religious text justice. I like to be well informed and read, ignorance serves no one well.

 

[MarySweet]

True enough. But there are a LOT of radical Muslims.

Anyone have a plan to reduce their numbers and replace them with peaceful, loving Muslims? I’d love to hear it.

Only because coutrys choose to keep the masses uneducated and ignorant. You wont find doctors and lawyers trashing buildings. This is not a religion issue but a cultural issue. People are kept dumb for a reason. What reason do you think their government has?

 

[yukonbrad]

Only because coutrys choose to keep the masses uneducated and ignorant. You wont find doctors and lawyers trashing buildings. This is not a religion issue but a cultural issue. People are kept dumb for a reason. What reason do you think their government has?

I also think it should be pointed out that we are talking at the very most perhaps 100,000 people in the streets as opposed to 1,500.000,000 muslims.

 

[TexanKnight]

I also think it should be pointed out that we are talking at the very most perhaps 100,000 people in the streets as opposed to 1,500.000,000 muslims.

exactly.

Thank you for your posts.

I hate what the radicals do. But I see a lot of good in Muslims who actually follow their faith.

 

[Nine_Two]

Are Joshua, Judges, and the books of Kings and Chronicles not about killing one’s neighbours?

Joshua is, but it doesn’t include the command that one should do it under normal circumstances. The other three you mention are generally about the Israeli’s being killed by their neighbors.
Depiction of war isn’t the same as a command to kill.

 

[Nine_Two]

Actually, it is not. If you believe it is…quote verses to prove it

What’s the point? Those who insist Islam is a peaceful religion will always choose to interpret the verses to mean they really just want peace. I cited the Surah which is filled with violence, which the Imams and the other Muslim scholars have historically, and by and large presently, interpreted violently.

 

[livelife4god]

No, it doesn’t. You don;t think there can be a million radicals in the whole of the middle east?

I work with muslims. I have friends who are muslim. I read the Koran so we could have discussions. The guys you see on the news are radicals. It is not indicative of what true Muslims are all about.

you say that you have read the koran?then you say that its not what moslims are all about?you get some very good/nice moslems indeed…but dont let islam fool you.

ok then,how about the first moslem,the prophet the one who moslems copy and follow every act and word…was he a true/good moslem?

im sorry but have you read the hadith?its no good just reading the koran… and islam/sharia should be practiced by moslems or they are going against the prophet and allah.that means they are bad moslems…

what you have said is like this i got told the other month…

remember islam is an ideology…95% of the kkk are not radicals… now think about it along the lines of the islamic ideology…if you cant see the different side of the same cion then heaven help us…

what they say and do to you in front of you has no bearing on what is in thier hearts,behind closed doors…

i think the west is being told a big big lie about islam/sharia…

one thing you get from being catholic is the rules are there and they dont change,islam is a deceiver always has been always will be…

if you want to talk wine lets take it back to the grape,the saying goes…

go back to mohamed and what he has done/said in the name of his god,the the same for Jesus…

can yo you not see there are no human rights for any body out side islam ? its a moslem only club,no body else…

and by the way,why have you brought up the inquisition?thats not what the OP asked…let islam stand up on its own. what you have stated is for another topic…that was not the question asked…

i better shut up… i could get thrown of the site…

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Generalized causes-

-education level
-economic level
-inability to understand the West and Christianity and/or faulty understanding
-West a “legitimate target” for outrage in an otherwise oppressive society
-conspiracy theory friendly society
-the social (non-religous) aspects of Islam (common identity, source of self-worth, political and social aspects within it, etc)
-radical believers and non-believers (those who use Islam to further secular goals)
-legitimate outrage

It has less to do with Islam as the primary cause and more to do with the above.

 

[TexanKnight]

What’s the point? Those who insist Islam is a peaceful religion will always choose to interpret the verses to mean they really just want peace. I cited the Surah which is filled with violence, which the Imams and the other Muslim scholars have historically, and by and large presently, interpreted violently.

you made a claim the surahdid that. But you cited no proof. It says in 9th surah that God forgives. Is that what you were referring to?

 

[TexanKnight]

you say that you have read the koran?then you say that its not what moslims are all about?you get some very good/nice moslems indeed…but dont let islam fool you.

Nope. That is not what I said. I said the Koran is not all about all the violence we see.

ok then,how about the first moslem,the prophet the one who moslems copy and follow every act and word…was he a true/good moslem?

Could you be more specific?

im sorry but have you read the hadith?its no good just reading the koran… and islam/sharia should be practiced by moslems or they are going against the prophet and allah.that means they are bad moslems…

Like I said, true Muslims are not the radicals.

remember islam is an ideology…95% of the kkk are not radicals… now think about it along the lines of the islamic ideology…if you cant see the different side of the same cion then heaven help us…

So you joined after getting booted? Interesting.

what they say and do to you in front of you has no bearing on what is in thier hearts,behind closed doors…

Please tell me how you know what my Muslim friends say behind my back.

one thing you get from being catholic is the rules are there and they dont change,islam is a deceiver always has been always will be…

Judge not, lest you also be judged

and by the way,why have you brought up the inquisition?thats not what the OP asked…let islam stand up on its own. what you have stated is for another topic…that was not the question asked…

Because I b elieve we should be judged by the same standard you judge others.

i better shut up… i could get thrown of the site…