Question for my writing

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I knew about the northern Bethlehem, but not that it was a larger town.

However, all of the prophecy surrounding Bethlehem in the OT would not have worked if He had been born in the north, as the prophecy specified Bethlehem of Judah.

If the star had led the wise men to Galilee, there would have been no occasion to go to Jerusalem and talk to Herod, and all the children would have died in vain.

And the stable narrative is more likely in a minor farming town than in a “bustling city.”

ICXC NIKA.
 
And the stable narrative is more likely in a minor farming town than in a “bustling city.”

ICXC NIKA.
Thing is, Luke’s nativity story isn’t even a ‘stable narrative’ (if by ‘stable’ you mean a sort of European-style barn). It wasn’t until the Middle Ages, and only then in the West.

As was noted, Luke likely had in mind a house with a ‘(guest) room’ (katalymati) and a ‘feeding trough’ / ‘manger’ (phatnē). Early Christians (like Justin Martyr, the Protoevangelium of James and Origen), meanwhile, had in mind a cave, due to an interpretation of the Greek text of Isaiah 33:16 (“He will dwell in a high cave of a strong rock”) as a Christological prophecy.* Later Western Christians defaulted to a shack or barn, because the Vulgate was translated from the Hebrew text of Isaiah where the wording of the passage in question is different (“his high places will be the stronghold of rocks”) and so there’s really no more prophecy to fulfill.
  • The Church of the Nativity does assume the cave idea, but the traditional location does not quite jive in with what you find in Justin and the author of the Protoevangelium (and the works which are based on the Protoevangelium), who both assume that the cave was in a distance outside Bethlehem. (The traditional cave is however inside the ancient village, likely near its western border.)
Not to mention that both sources are a little suspect: the author of the Protoevangelium was apparently a gentile Christian ignorant of Palestinian geography and Jewish customs, and while Justin was from Palestine, he was from a pagan family and was born in the Samaritan heartland (Nablus/Neapolis, biblical Shechem). So while Justin could have gotten the idea of a cave ‘correctly’ based on his observations of local custom, it still stands that he apparently does not know where the exact cave where Jesus would have supposedly been born was, since he describes it rather broadly as being near the village, but nevertheless outside it. (That Justin may have thought that it was some distance from Bethlehem’s borders we can infer from his remark about the Tomb of Rachel, which was just outside the village: he said that Rachel’s tomb is “in” Bethlehem.)

As for Origen’s remarks (Against Celsus 1.51): “What is shown there is famous in these parts even among people alien to the faith, because it was in these cave that the Jesus who is worshipped and admired by Christians was born.” The way this passage reads (it’s a little awkward in Greek), it seems that Origen was repeating what the pagans who by then were living in Bethlehem - this was well after the Jews became a minority in the Holy Land - were claiming: that Jesus was born in a cave in the area.

We do know from St. Jerome that the site where the Church of the Nativity now stands was originally a shrine to Tammuz-Adonis. At which case, the claim needs to be taken with a grain of salt: for all we know, Origen’s apparently pagan informants may have simply arrived at the idea because of syncretism rather than solid ancient tradition. They identified Jesus with Adonis-Tammuz, for whom they had a cave-sacred grove in the area: hey, the Christians were claiming that Jesus was born in Bethlehem after all, and this Jesus was a dying-and-rising God pretty much like Tammuz/Adonis. Not to mention that the Aramaic and Hebrew words for ‘my Lord’ ('adoni) sounds just like ‘Adonis’. 😃
 
The stable narrative doesn’t really depend upon whether there was a shed of the Euro/NA type or a cave, just that it was an enclosure for the animals.

ICXC NIKA
 
I knew about the northern Bethlehem, but not that it was a larger town.

However, all of the prophecy surrounding Bethlehem in the OT would not have worked if He had been born in the north, as the prophecy specified Bethlehem of Judah.
Well, yep. But then again, I guess these people will get around it by saying Matthew and Luke ensured Jesus fulfilled the prophecy by switching the two locations around. 🤷 :rolleyes:

But then again, the Jews had no single idea of where the messiah will come from. He does not necessarily have to come literally from Bethlehem. He could be born somewhere else, maybe even descend from the skies or rise up from the sea. In fact, some even thought that he doesn’t need to be a literal Davidic descendant: just being David-like in qualities (in other words, being a second David) will do.

(Being a Davidid by blood was obviously important in the earliest phase of the messianic idea, when the expectation was that a man from David’s lineage will assume the kingship and restore the old monarchy to its former glory. But it sort of took a backseat in later times, when there was little to no agreement about what the messiah will be like - will he be a warrior? A king? A prophet? A priest? Will he even be human, or some sort of angel or divine being - maybe even God Himself? Will there be a literal ‘messiah’ in person, or is it just an abstract concept for deliverance?)
If the star had led the wise men to Galilee, there would have been no occasion to go to Jerusalem and talk to Herod, and all the children would have died in vain.
Cue in the people who deny the nativity accounts are historical. 😉
 
Good point about the “manger” aspect to the birth story being added, Patrick.

Hard to believe that the women of the Bethlehem village would relegate a young Mary in the throes of her first birth to a manger and neglect her.

Mary was certainly brought into someone;s house and given adequate care. It was her first child, after all, and the rate of complications are high.
 
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