Question for non-Catholics: if then why not now...?

[boastinjesus]

Well, perhaps it’s just me, but I can’t find anything in the bible that claims that the father and the holy spirit are one or that the son and the HS are one.

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

Romans 8:9-11 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Also, if there is only one God, and all three are said to be God, isn’t it logically deduced?

 

[CompSciGuy]

Every good Catholic Computer Engineer knows that there are exactly 11 persons in the Holy Trinity.

 

[regression]

Every good Catholic Computer Engineer knows that there are exactly 11 persons in the Holy Trinity.

Exactly right! Just like there are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t

 

[CompSciGuy]

Exactly right! Just like there are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t

It appears that you are among the former, as you were able to tell that I’m not actually teaching heresy!

I’m sure you also know that there are 111 sacraments.

 

[regression]

I’m sure you also know that there are 111 sacraments.

Of course!

 

[TrueLight]

I would say a lot of evangelicals/fundamentalists are clueless about the history of the early church.

The focus is on your personal relationship with Christ and in reading the Word.

Discovering early Church history, outside of the book of Acts, is THE primary reason I came to see the Catholic Church as the Church that Jesus Christ himself established.

“To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant." Newman.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I would say a lot of evangelicals/fundamentalists are clueless about the history of the early church.

The focus is on your personal relationship with Christ and in reading the Word.

That is actually a good focus to have, not a bad one. But what better way to deepen one’s relationship with Christ than to receive Him, body blood soul and divinity, to approach Him in the sacrament of reconciliation, to know and love His blessed mother, and to be a part of His Church?

 

[joe370]

TrueLight;8465208]I would say a lot of evangelicals/fundamentalists are clueless about the history of the early church.

The focus is on your personal relationship with Christ and in reading the Word.

Discovering early Church history, outside of the book of Acts, is THE primary reason I came to see the Catholic Church as the Church that Jesus Christ himself established.

Me too…

 

[TrueLight]

That is actually a good focus to have, not a bad one. But what better way to deepen one’s relationship with Christ than to receive Him, body blood soul and divinity, to approach Him in the sacrament of reconciliation, to know and love His blessed mother, and to be a part of His Church?

Yes, we all should focus on having a closer relationship with Christ.

It comes down to faith. If your faith tradition does not believe in the real presence, then you probably won’t believe it either. Do you believe Mohammed was a prophet sent from God?

I had never even heard of the Assumption when I was Protestant and I thought the Immaculate Conception referred to Christ. And we can find verses in the Bible that would point to confessing directly to God.

My step of faith was believing that if the Church said so, then it is so.

Otherwise, one can always find reasons to not believe.

 

[TrueLight]

Me too…

 

[joe370]

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

Proceeding from the father is not explicit. I am looking for something like:

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one…

Romans 8:9-11 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[PbloPicasso]

:compcoff:

 

[CompSciGuy]

Yes, we all should focus on having a closer relationship with Christ.

It comes down to faith. If your faith tradition does not believe in the real presence, then you probably won’t believe it either. Do you believe Mohammed was a prophet sent from God?

I had never even heard of the Assumption when I was Protestant and I thought the Immaculate Conception referred to Christ. And we can find verses in the Bible that would point to confessing directly to God.

My step of faith was believing that if the Church said so, then it is so.

Otherwise, one can always find reasons to not believe.

I see your point. The way your post was worded it appeared as though you were saying that a focus on a relationship with Christ is a bad thing and not a good thing. The point we are both trying to make is that this relationship must be done in a legitimate way, namely through the Church he founded, which we can discover for ourselves if we only look for it, and the best way to look for it is through history. Yes?

I also am a convert and I grew up Presbyterian; I was agnostic before I discovered Catholicism. History played a large part in my conversion as well.

 

[CopticChristian]

I appreciate your love for and commitment to the truth. This is an area in which we agree about the doctrine but may dispute the ultimate authority.

A few thoughts about your post:

1. JW’s are easy to refute with the Bible alone. They’ve had to do some odd things with the Scriptures to hold to their beliefs.
2. I agree with the quote you concluded with, but I would also argue that those things are taught in the Bible. We have confidence in those truths because they are taught in the Bible, not because Irenaeus stated it.
3. What do we (Protestants) believe about the Trinity that cannot be shown in the Bible, but that we must rely on tradition alone for?

You have made the point that with a Bible the Jehovah Witness have done some odd things to deny the Trinity. The 7th Day adventists also do odd things. Oneness Pentacostal also do odd things. Mormons do odd things. The thing they have in common is that they were all sprang from Protestant thought. Who in the Protestant arena can declare them to be wrong? Is there a Protestant church?

Protestants have done some odd things too. They had all the books that the Catholic Church had for years in English and then they were taken out. On whose authority were these books taken out?

Where in the Bible does the Bible teach that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Where in the Bible does the Bible teach that the Bible is Scripture, naming all the books…

Where does the Bible teach that the Bible is all you need…Let me help you…these won’t work…

1. 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2. 10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
3. 6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
4. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
   6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Let us all know…

 

[CopticChristian]

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

Romans 8:9-11 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Also, if there is only one God, and all three are said to be God, isn’t it logically deduced?

If I did not believe in the Trinity and if someone presented this to me I would say…

Helper, something or someone lower than the Father, proceeding from the Father, bearing witness…perhaps an angel but not God.

I am in the Spirit…if the Spirit of God dwells in me…OK…then there is the Spirit of Christ two separate things…The spirit of him who raised Jesus…Jesus is not God and could not do it by himself…he will give life through his spirit…a spirit gives life…maybe the same messenger from the Father…

I do not see that all are said to be God…and it isn’t logical and yet I believe it…if the Bible was all I had I doubt I would get it… fortunately I do not rely on the Bible alone.

 

[domandcarols]

 

[CopticChristian]

:banghead::newidea:

 

[boastinjesus]

If I did not believe in the Trinity and if someone presented this to me I would say…

Helper, something or someone lower than the Father, proceeding from the Father, bearing witness…perhaps an angel but not God.

I am in the Spirit…if the Spirit of God dwells in me…OK…then there is the Spirit of Christ two separate things…The spirit of him who raised Jesus…Jesus is not God and could not do it by himself…he will give life through his spirit…a spirit gives life…maybe the same messenger from the Father…

I do not see that all are said to be God…and it isn’t logical and yet I believe it…if the Bible was all I had I doubt I would get it… fortunately I do not rely on the Bible alone.

Post #23 gives a biblical defense of the Trinity. That is where the verses are given that show all three are said to be God. This one just speaks to a couple verses about the Holy Spirit.

 

[CopticChristian]

Post #23 gives a biblical defense of the Trinity. That is where the verses are given that show all three are said to be God. This one just speaks to a couple verses about the Holy Spirit.

I read the verses however those same verses have been read by Jehovah Witness, Mormons, Oneness Pentacostals, 7th Day Adventists and more…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Nontrinitarian_denominations

Here is a group that says the Bible teaches one God and no Trinity

nontrinitarian.com/

and a historical parody

angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/trinity.html

Clear as mud and only clear if you accept that there is a Magesterium, the mystery hidden for all ages that defined, teaches and binds believers to accept Trinitarian Theology.

Otherwise you are just one fallible guy with a book.

Now if you are Trinitarian it is probably because Luther, Knox, Zwingli and Calvin were Trinitarian. I appreciate your accepting, believing and defending the Church teaching of Trinitarian Theology. The journey of a mile starts with one step.

 

[joe370]

Hey Cop…

CopticChristian;8490143]I read the verses however those same verses have been read by Jehovah Witness, Mormons, Oneness Pentacostals, 7th Day Adventists and more…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Nontrinitarian_denominations

Here is a group that says the Bible teaches one God and no Trinity

nontrinitarian.com/

Bingo!!!

Otherwise you are just one fallible guy with a book.

Infallible book with no infallible interpreter. Yup…John 16:13 and John 14:16 applies only to the church founded by God (CC as you know, in my opinion) - as opposed to people like me or any other Christian.

Now if you are Trinitarian it is probably because Luther, Knox, Zwingli and Calvin were Trinitarian. I appreciate your accepting, believing and defending the Church teaching of Trinitarian Theology. The journey of a mile starts with one step.

Excellent points Cop…