Question for non-Catholics regarding the council of Chalcedon?

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If no process of infallibility exists for Jesus’ church, via the perpetual ineffable guidance of the holy spirit, then sacred scripture as well as certain dogmatic teachings of the CC, such as Theotokos, Filioque, the Trinity, all embraced as infallible by most Protestants, become liable to being “erroneous or false, not accurate.” In other words, “fallible” - correct?
No. At least according to how language reads to me.

It seems to me the phrase “incapable of being correct” does not even apply to an outcome. The best an outcome can be is “correct” or “erroneous”.

Fallible can only apply to a process…or at least that is how it reads to me.

Fallible processes can produce correct outcomes. Or at least we had better hope so because in real life, every process involvig humans is “capable of being incorrect”.
 
If no process of infallibility exists for Jesus’ church, via the perpetual ineffable guidance of the holy spirit, then sacred scripture as well as certain dogmatic teachings of the CC, such as Theotokos, Filioque, the Trinity, all embraced as infallible by most Protestants, become liable to being “erroneous or false, not accurate.” In other words, “fallible” - correct?
Anyway, according to your reasoning, your claim that a “process of infallability exists” is in itself fallible since this statement could not have been created by an infallible process.
 
So, the conclusions of the council of Chalcedon were correct but at the same time, perhaps quite fallible because there was no guarantee that the members of said council would come to the right conclusion simply by virtue of it being a council? :confused:
Well, personally I think the term “infallible” often creates more problems than it solves. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use it, but we should recognize that it’s not a simple concept and that it needs to be defined very carefully in a specific context.

Everyone agrees that there was no guarantee that Chalcedon would be right just because it was something called “a council.” That’s not even a live option. We all know that there have been heretical councils–Chalcedonian Christians, for instance, believe Ephesus 449 to have been such a council (and “Oriental Orthodox” believe Chalcedon to have been such a council!).

The question is whether there is some objective, procedural way to tell in advance which councils are going to turn out to be “true” ones. I think that the claim doesn’t hold up. The only such criterion anyone can point to, really, is papal approval, and even that one is pretty shaky in my opinion, given that the pope never seems to have taken any notice of Constantinople 381 until much, much later, and that a later pope fiercely opposed Constantinople 553 until coerced by the emperor into recognizing it reluctantly.

I am fine with accepting eventual/longterm papal approval as one necessary sign that a Council has been received by the Church. I think that fits the historical evidence. But the idea that ancient Christians sat around wondering if a council was legitimate until the Pope said it was, and then all saluted and went about their business knowing the Council was infallible, certainly does not.
Do you believe that ecumenical council of Chalcedon was guided by the spirit of truth in some way, or do you trust that they were correct (but possible fallible) - based on human discernment alone?
I believe that it was guided by the spirit of truth, absolutely. Many Protestants would say that. However, they would say that we know it to be guided by the Holy Spirit insofar as we can verify that its teachings were in accordance with Scripture, whereas I believe that longterm reception by a Christian community continuing to bring forth the fruit of holiness and standing in continuity with the apostolic community (communion with Rome certainly helps in this regard, at the very least) is in itself a sufficient criterion which should give us confidence that such a community has not wholly perverted the teaching of Scripture!

Edwin
 
Hey Edwin…
Contarini;8577277]Well, personally I think the term “infallible” often creates more problems than it solves. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use it, but we should recognize that it’s not a simple concept and that it needs to be defined very carefully in a specific context.
You are so right. 👍
Everyone agrees that there was no guarantee that Chalcedon would be right just because it was something called “a council.” That’s not even a live option. We all know that there have been heretical councils–Chalcedonian Christians, for instance, believe Ephesus 449 to have been such a council (and “Oriental Orthodox” believe Chalcedon to have been such a council!).
Of course not everyone agreed, at the time of each council or agrees today that the following ecumenical councils were inspired by God and therefore definitively accurate; for example, the non-Chalcedonian churches believe differently: Nicaea I, Constantinople I, Ephesus, Chalcedon…

Which was why I asked what I asked in post #1!👍
I believe that it was guided by the spirit of truth, absolutely.
👍
Many Protestants would say that. However, they would say that we know it to be guided by the Holy Spirit insofar as we can verify that its teachings were in accordance with Scripture, whereas I believe that longterm reception by a Christian community continuing to bring forth the fruit of holiness and standing in continuity with the apostolic community (communion with Rome certainly helps in this regard, at the very least) is in itself a sufficient criterion which should give us confidence that such a community has not wholly perverted the teaching of Scripture!
So, you believe that the Catholic church ecumenical council of Chalcedon was guided by the spirit of truth? 👍

Thanks for the feedback brother…
 
Anyway, according to your reasoning, your claim that a “process of infallability exists” is in itself fallible since this statement could not have been created by an infallible process.
No! I asked the following:

If no process of infallibility exists for Jesus’ church, via the perpetual ineffable guidance of the holy spirit, then sacred scripture as well as certain dogmatic teachings of the CC, such as Theotokos, Filioque, the Trinity, all embraced as infallible doctrines by most Protestants, become liable to being “erroneous or false, not accurate.” In other words, “fallible” - correct?
 
No! I asked the following:

If no process of infallibility exists for Jesus’ church, via the perpetual ineffable guidance of the holy spirit, then sacred scripture as well as certain dogmatic teachings of the CC, such as Theotokos, Filioque, the Trinity, all embraced as infallible doctrines by most Protestants, become liable to being “erroneous or false, not accurate.” In other words, “fallible” - correct?
No…the word fallible does not have the same meaning as “erroneous” or “false”. That is where the confusion is.
 
Fallible: capable of making mistakes or being erroneous.

Just thought I’d put that out there.
 
So, you worship statues too?👍

Just kidding.😛
No, I don’t. 😛

But I don’t have a problem with Christian churches having icons or statues, or whatever. Not unless they actually are worshiping them. And I know my Catholic and Orthodox brethren don’t, so no problem there.
 
That was not my definition; perhaps you can show that the following definition is wrong?

dictionary.reference.com/browse/fallible
(of persons) liable to err, especially in being deceived or mistaken.
2.
liable to be erroneous or false; not accurate: fallible information.
Commercial Insurance
Hmm…I see that actually.

Perhaps a statement that can be proven correct is an infallible statement.

Example 1+1=2 can be proven correct mathematically. Therefore it is impossible for this statement to be wrong. Therefore it is an infallible statement.

Similarly “My dog is a bassett hound” can be proven correct by observation. Therefore that is an infallible statement.

I get that now.

I now have forgotten how that all relates to this thread.
 
Hmm…I see that actually.

Perhaps a statement that can be proven correct is an infallible statement.

Example 1+1=2 can be proven correct mathematically. Therefore it is impossible for this statement to be wrong. Therefore it is an infallible statement.

Similarly “My dog is a bassett hound” can be proven correct by observation. Therefore that is an infallible statement.

I get that now.

I now have forgotten how that all relates to this thread.
Did you know that (8+8 = F) ?
 
Thank you for your serious reply.

Do you really feel the need to mock people to make your point.
I merely mean to educate people limited in their perception of mathematics. Hexadecimal system. I replied for precisely to your reply on another thread. Step back from the weapons and take a deep breath of air.
 
This council reads more like an administrative meeting to clarify the role and authority of bishops, who seem to have been under attack.
 
Hmm…I see that actually.

Perhaps a statement that can be proven correct is an infallible statement.

Example 1+1=2 can be proven correct mathematically. Therefore it is impossible for this statement to be wrong. Therefore it is an infallible statement.

Similarly “My dog is a bassett hound” can be proven correct by observation. Therefore that is an infallible statement.

I get that now.

I now have forgotten how that all relates to this thread.
👍

It ties in because I had asked in the original post, the following:

Is it true that the council of Chalcedon is considered infallible in its dogmatic definitions, by various Protestant Christian groups? 🙂
 
👍

It ties in because I had asked in the original post, the following:

Is it true that the council of Chalcedon is considered infallible in its dogmatic definitions, by various Protestant Christian groups? 🙂
I have never ever heard this council mentioned in any Protestant church. I suppose maybe the Lutherans, Episcopalians or someone else might?
 
I have never ever heard this council mentioned in any Protestant church. I suppose maybe the Lutherans, Episcopalians or someone else might?
AP and I have reached a consensus regarding the meaning of fallible and infallible; do you agree? If so would you agree that the CC spoke infallibly at the council of Chalcedon

AP said:
Hmm…I see that actually.
Perhaps a statement that can be proven correct is an infallible statement.
Example 1+1=2 can be proven correct mathematically. Therefore it is impossible for this statement to be wrong. Therefore it is an infallible statement.
Similarly “My dog is a bassett hound” can be proven correct by observation. Therefore that is an infallible statement.
I get that now.
 
👍

It ties in because I had asked in the original post, the following:

Is it true that the council of Chalcedon is considered infallible in its dogmatic definitions, by various Protestant Christian groups? 🙂
Well that is a good question. The easy answer of course would be yes…but…

I would have to ask…

Is anything related to God infallible…meaning…
  • Able to be proven correct…either logically or by observation.
If nothing related to God is provable, then does infallability apply.

Help me out because I am stuck here again…

How does one prove that even God exists?

It seems to me at some point faith kicks in…where one believes something to be true without the necessity of proof.
 
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