Question for non-Catholics

[joe371]

Thought I’d take another stab at it - Question for non-Catholics (specifically Protestants as opposed to Eastern Orthodox):

Do you believe that Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church circa AD 33, in Jerusalem, on Pentecost, and that the apostles and their successors, belonged to the Catholic Church? If not then which church in the world today did the apostles belong to, and what is the name of the person that founded the Catholic Church, and when? Please be specific! For example if you asked me who founded the Lutheran church, and when, I would say: Martin Luther, in the 16th century i.e. ML was responsible for the movement that led to the Lutheran churches in the world today.

 

[MarianCatholic]

Thought I’d take another stab at it - Question for non-Catholics (specifically Protestants as opposed to Eastern Orthodox):

Do you believe that Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church circa AD 33, in Jerusalem, on Pentecost, and that the apostles and their successors, belonged to the Catholic Church? If not then which church in the world today did the apostles belong to, and what is the name of the person that founded the Catholic Church, and when? Please be specific! For example if you asked me who founded the Lutheran church, and when, I would say: Martin Luther, in the 16th century i.e. ML was responsible for the movement that led to the Lutheran churches in the world today.

This question has to be provoking to all Protestants.
I can’t see how you’ll get a good dialogue when formulating your question like you do.
I’ll certaintly not be surprised if this thread goes sour quite fast…

 

[rfournier103]

This should be fun!

 

[dronald]

What bothers me is that there are threads like this that go on for pages and pages with no real topic to follow.

Did Jesus find a Church? Yes.

Did the Apostles spread the Word? Yes.

Did the Church fall into heresy? No.

Is the Church Universal? Yes.

Therefore am I a part of the Catholic Church? It depends who you ask.

So what’s the thread gonna be about? My guess is that the Lutherans say their Church is the same one except it’s reformed and the Catholics are just wrong about some things. 66 books will be brought up. Maybe the Baptists and Evangelicals will discuss infant Baptism and the Eucharist. Someone will probably question the role of Mary and then bring up the crusades. Lots of snide comments I’m sure, and loving ones that still get the thread no where. Just another generic “Protestants are wrong” thread.

See you guys later!

 

[Valhk]

Thought I’d take another stab at it - Question for non-Catholics (specifically Protestants as opposed to Eastern Orthodox):

Do you believe that Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church circa AD 33, in Jerusalem, on Pentecost, and that the apostles and their successors, belonged to the Catholic Church? If not then which church in the world today did the apostles belong to, and what is the name of the person that founded the Catholic Church, and when? Please be specific! For example if you asked me who founded the Lutheran church, and when, I would say: Martin Luther, in the 16th century i.e. ML was responsible for the movement that led to the Lutheran churches in the world today.

Yeah, of course. But Catholic means universal (The RCC hasn’t been Catholic since 1054). And to make an addition to the point of Martin Luther - Luther wouldn’t have started the movement had it not been for Jesus and the original church. In one way or another, every Protestant church/denomination must trace their origins to that essential point in history. The only differences that still exist are doctrinal ones that cannot be resolved.

 

[joe371]

This question has to be provoking to all Protestants.
I can’t see how you’ll get a good dialogue when formulating your question like you do.
I’ll certaintly not be surprised if this thread goes sour quite fast…

OK. How should I broach the subject? We can use your approach, and ignore mine…Perhaps that will yield better results as opposed to going sour… Or, we can just disregard this thread; no biggie…

 

[marklamer]

Thought I’d take another stab at it - Question for non-Catholics (specifically Protestants as opposed to Eastern Orthodox):

marten Luther – was not founding a new thing-- he was bringing correction-- to the roman church

Do you believe that Jesus Christ founded-- a holy spirit filled assembly ??

Jesus founded a fellowship-- that the people can be born again-- (like a down -loaded app)

with the Spirit of Yawah (Holy Spirit)

there do not seem to be many people on this forum that is led by the holy Spirit-- they are – led by Quoting scripture that they “memorized”

just like the pharisees and sadises in Jesus time–

6 However, two men, whose names were Eldad and Medad, had remained in the camp. They were listed among the elders, but did not go out to the tent. Yet the Spirit also rested on them, and they prophesied in the camp. 27 A young man ran and told Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.”

28 Joshua son of Nun, who had been Moses’ aide since youth, spoke up and said, “Moses, my lord, stop them!”

29 But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!” 30 Then Moses and the elders of Israel returned to the camp.
Samuel 10 New International Version (NIV)

10 Then Samuel took a flask of olive oil and poured it on Saul’s head and kissed him, saying, “Has not the Lord anointed you

6 The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. 7 Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you.

19 Word came to Saul: “David is in Naioth at Ramah”; 20 so he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came on Saul’s men, and they also prophesied. 21 Saul was told about it, and he sent more men, and they prophesied too. Saul sent men a third time, and they also prophesied. 22 Finally, he himself left for Ramah and went to the great cistern at Seku. And he asked, “Where are Samuel and David?”

“Over in Naioth at Ramah,” they said.

23 So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. 24 He stripped off his garments, and he too prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay naked all that day and all that night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

Life Through the Spirit

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,** God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Concerning Spiritual Gifts

12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.** 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

there does not seem to be any one on this forum-- that functions in the 9 giftings that sint Paul talks of–

but ther is a general knowledge – of the 7- fruits-- of the spirit – from isa 11;1-7

Isaiah 11 New International Version (NIV)
The Branch From Jesse

11 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of might,
the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord—
3 and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.

He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears;
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.****

 

[joe371]

marklamer;12199615]

Thought I’d take another stab at it - Question for non-Catholics (specifically Protestants as opposed to Eastern Orthodox):

marten Luther – was not founding a new thing-- he was bringing correction-- to the roman church

 

[lutheran_farmer]

I knew nothing about the early church fathers when I was Lutheran. It wasn’t brought up at all.

I see why you are asking this question. Now, it seems so obvious, but it wasn’t then.

 

[WesSmith]

Your question makes the assumption that it is of critical import that we Protestants can trace our church denomination back to Jesus. It is not. Jesus founded a spiritual church. The church is a spiritual reality. What you call Catholicism developed long after Jesus. Jesus never taught the countless Catholic traditions or rites that currently exist. He never founded that. As a nondenominational Evangelical, I believe that Christ founded the spiritual, or invisible, church during Pentecost. At that moment, the church became a spiritual reality. The REAL or PHYSICAL church exists in perfection in heaven. But, just as Paul alludes to in 2 Thess. Chapter 2, once the apostles, or those acting as a restraint, died, sinfulness appeared and entered the church. Then came the many man made traditions. Nonetheless, the spiritual church always existed, and there were many in the spiritual church from the death of the apostles until the reformation, because obviously Catholics can be saved. Thus, my church is a spiritual one, invisible on earth, only in heaven, with it only being manifested upon earth in the form of the Bible and those which are simply waiting to go up to the heavenly church

 

[tabycat]

This should be fun!

Lots of fun!! If does not go south. . .

 

[joe371]

I knew nothing about the early church fathers when I was Lutheran. It wasn’t brought up at all.

I see why you are asking this question. Now, it seems so obvious, but it wasn’t then.

As a former non-Catholic, it sounds like you discovered some of the same things I did…

Congrats!!!

New Catholic as of Easter 2014 and in our parish’s Apologetics class

 

[joe371]

WesSmith;12199702]Your question makes the assumption that it is of critical import that we Protestants can trace our church denomination back to Jesus. It is not.

I am not assuming anything…

Jesus founded a spiritual church. The church is a spiritual reality.

And a visible church…

What you call Catholicism developed long after Jesus.

Proof?

Jesus never taught the countless Catholic traditions or rites that currently exist.

OK. If you say so. Irrelevant to the thread, however…

He never founded that. As a nondenominational Evangelical, I believe that Christ founded the spiritual, or invisible, church during Pentecost. At that moment, the church became a spiritual reality. The REAL or PHYSICAL church exists in perfection in heaven. But, just as Paul alludes to in 2 Thess. Chapter 2, once the apostles, or those acting as a restraint, died, sinfulness appeared and entered the church. Then came the many man made traditions. Nonetheless, the spiritual church always existed, and there were many in the spiritual church from the death of the apostles until the reformation, because obviously Catholics can be saved. Thus, my church is a spiritual one, invisible on earth, only in heaven, with it only being manifested upon earth in the form of the Bible and those which are simply waiting to go up to the heavenly church

Your answers to my questions?

 

[guanophore]

marklamer;12199615:

marten Luther – was not founding a new thing-- he was bringing correction-- to the roman church

I think he believed that he was, at least, that is how he started out. The nailing of treatises to doors was an acceptable form of academic dialogue at the time.
marklamer;12199615:

Jesus founded a fellowship-- that the people can be born again-- (like a down -loaded app)

While there is fellowship in what Jesus founded, the Church is much beyond that. He founded an authorative, structured, visible and holy Body on earth.

I don’t think being born again is like a down-loaded app…:nope:
marklamer;12199615:

there do not seem to be many people on this forum that is led by the holy Spirit-- they are – led by Quoting scripture that they “memorized”

So, you think quoting Scriptures one has memorized is evidence that a person is not led by the HS?
marklamer;12199615:

just like the pharisees and sadises in Jesus time–

Actually I was thinking of Jesus when he was fasting in the desert and being tempted by the devil.

The Pharisees, Sadducees and others in Jesus’ time quoted scriptures to Him because they were confused or to trip Him up in His teaching. Do you think those are the reasons people on CAF quote Scripture?
marklamer;12199615:

Life Through the Spirit…

Concerning Spiritual Gifts

there does not seem to be any one on this forum-- that functions in the 9 giftings that sint Paul talks of–

You could try using the search word “charismatic” and you will usually find them that way.

So what prevents you from becoming Catholic?

 

[Deputy_Seraph]

Lots of fun!! If does not go south. . .

I already see the exit…

 

[Emily2014]

Interested to know what prompted such a provocative post and what you hope to achieve.
God bless you.

 

[WesSmith]

I am not assuming anything…

Yes, you clearly are, because you asked the question in the first places. That shows that you feel it is important I can show you who founded my physical church or building.

And a visible church…

I literally had to chuckle a bit when I read this. My favorite thing about Catholics is their faith. Truly, they have amazing levels of faith. I just live how you can regurgitate ideas and fervently believe them just because your church teaches they are true, even if you have absolutely no scriptural support whatsoever. How do you think a Protestant (people who broke from the RCC because they need to have scriptural support for everything- something the church doesn’t offer) would think that an empty statement like you made, with no substantiation, carries any authority? Show me SCRIPTURE that proves your statement.

Proof?

All your support for church teaching comes long after the apostles. You think a church teaching of 250 is official. That is not the apostolic church.

Your answers to my questions?

I answered your questions already, but I’ll put it real simply- Jesus Christ founded the church I belong to. I belong to the heavenly church which he created.

God bless you

 

[joe371]

Interested to know what prompted such a provocative post and what you hope to achieve.
God bless you.

Well, it’s simple, and I am not trying to provoke… The name of the person who founded the Catholic Church, in view of the fact that many claim that the Catholic Church is just another denomination as opposed to the church established by Jesus to which the apostles belonged.

 

[joe371]

WesSmith;12199842]Yes, you clearly are, because you asked the question in the first places. That shows that you feel it is important I can show you who founded my physical church or building.

You are wrong my friend. Purpose: to get the name of the person who founded the Catholic Church, in view of the fact that many claim that the Catholic Church is just another denomination as opposed to the church established by Jesus to which the apostles belonged.

I literally had to chuckle a bit when I read this. My favorite thing about Catholics is their faith. Truly, they have amazing levels of faith. I just live how you can regurgitate ideas and fervently believe them just because your church teaches they are true,

OK. Not sure what that has to do with the thread…

even if you have absolutely no scriptural support whatsoever. How do you think a Protestant (people who broke from the RCC because they need to have scriptural support for everything- something the church doesn’t offer) would think that an empty statement like you made, with no substantiation, carries any authority? Show me SCRIPTURE that proves your statement.

Like for example, scriptural support for the practice of sola scriptura, something I could not find as a former sola scriptura advocate. I digress though…

All your support for church teaching comes long after the apostles. You think a church teaching of 250 is official. That is not the apostolic church.

I respect your right to believe that…

I answered your questions already, but I’ll put it real simply- Jesus Christ founded the church I belong to. I belong to the heavenly church which he created.

OK. You told me who founded your church but not who founded the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

Your question makes the assumption that it is of critical import that we Protestants can trace our church denomination back to Jesus. It is not. Jesus founded a spiritual church. The church is a spiritual reality.

You make a very valid point. Yes, we believe that Jesus founded a Church that is in the world, visible, authorative, structured and holy. It is incarnational just as He is, with both human and Divine elements. The humans connected to Christ are His Body here on earth, He is our Head, and the soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit.

What you call Catholicism developed long after Jesus.

I think this is the point of the thread. Can you say when and how exactly this happened? From our point of view this is not the case,

Jesus never taught the countless Catholic traditions or rites that currently exist.

Such as? Certainly the Church that he founded as a seed has grown into a large bush.

Luke 13:18-19

18 He said therefore, “What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? 19 It is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his garden; and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air made nests in its branches.”

Naturally no one in the first century would recognize what we see now!

He never founded that. As a nondenominational Evangelical, I believe that Christ founded the spiritual, or invisible, church during Pentecost.

When I read the account in the book of Acts, it seems pretty clear that the Church was visible and authorative.

At that moment, the church became a spiritual reality. The REAL or PHYSICAL church exists in perfection in heaven.

This is not consistent with what is in Scripture. Yes, the Church did become a spiritual reality on Pentecost, but it also became a physical, tangible reality on earth.

Consider this teaching:

Matt 18:15-19

15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

How can the disciples take a disagreement to somewhere that is “invisible”? Does not this passage suggest to you that there is a visible, identifiable Church here on earth?

It also seems to me that this passage is clear that the ruling of the Church is binding - authoratative.

But, just as Paul alludes to in 2 Thess. Chapter 2, once the apostles, or those acting as a restraint, died, sinfulness appeared and entered the church.

No, Paul’s comments here are unrelated to the death of the Apostles. There has been sin since day one in the Church. Read I Corinthians 6:15, where a member of the Corinthian Church has fallen into sexual sin with a prostitute. This is one of the earliest letters of the NT, 40 years before the Apostle John died. Paul is speaking in 2 Thess of events that will precede the second coming of Christ.

But I think I am hearing in your formulation here the answer to the OP’s question. Your claim is that sin entered into the Church when the Apostles died, because the Apostles were no longer there to restrain it? What you are saying is that with this sin, the Catholic Church was formed?

Then came the many man made traditions.

Perhaps you could give an example?

Nonetheless, the spiritual church always existed, and there were many in the spiritual church from the death of the apostles until the reformation, because obviously Catholics can be saved.

I am so relieved to hear this!

Thus, my church is a spiritual one, invisible on earth, only in heaven, with it only being manifested upon earth in the form of the Bible and those which are simply waiting to go up to the heavenly church

Well, when I look at my Bible, I see the Sacred, infallible, inerrant Word of God, but I don’t see a Church. Jesus founded a Church, He did not write a book, or a set of books or letters. He entrusted His faith once for all to the saints, not into writing.