Question for non-Catholics

[joe371]

Sy Noe;12201688]I have zero interest in getting into a drawn out debate about this so don’t think anything of it if I don’t respond to anything further.

But you did respond further…see below…LOL…just being silly…

IOW don’t think “gotcha” if I don’t reply. But just to answer and offer what I have come to believe thus far at this point in my faith walk as I’ve searched for truth.

I believe the following. Jesus Christ established His Church not upon Peter but upon Peter’s profession of faith. His Church is not only today’s Catholic Church but His entire Body of believers. So the apostles belonged to the same Church that all Christians do today. Every human is fallible and I believe can be possibly on faith and moral teachings as well. I believe even the earliest Christians including ECFs were fallible and could have strayed. Even Peter denied and Thomas doubted. This fallibility aspect of being human results in some differences to be sure but that’s simply the reality of being human. Even Paul, not of the original 12, corrected Peter. If what Catholics believe was ever the one Church, the papacy I believe over time became too powerful. I believe more so than Jesus intended. Jesus gave keys to all the apostles when he said for them to bind and loosen. So in a nutshell who founded all the churches today? Jesus did! We have our different interpretations on some specifics no doubt. But as we await for the one truth to all be explained for us by Him and truly learn and know at that time who is completely right on everything if anyone is, trusting in His mercy, we are indeed united as one in Jesus as Lord and Savior and Christ the King. I don’t sweat all of the smaller stuff as much. Because as we are told in Ephesians 2:14, He brings us peace and is the One Who breaks down walls. Peace to everyone.

 

[joe371]

JonNC

Do you believe God can use a man-made institution for His purposes?

Jon

:yup:CCC - "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation…

 

[joe371]

I am not going to respond to everybody individually because it is simply too much, and I think the same can be accomplished by just saying this-

Catholics are far too concerned about denomination. You continually ask for a name or denomination where we can serve Christ. The key to this question is that there is no scriptural or even logical reason to conclude that Christ created a physical denomination such as the Catholic church. Certainly, the church that He founded was a spiritual body. Members of that spiritual body are on the earth, and thus the early church functioned as a union of various assemblies. When God needed a matter to be settled, He called councils together, such as the council to settle circumcision. I even would admit that God worked through the earlier councils of the Catholic church. Unlike many Protestants, I see denomination as a man made creation. Jesus Christ certainly was not a Catholic. He never instituted the many rites of the church such as the mass, with its many man made ceremonies which were formed long after the apostles. The bottom line is that if you want to serve Christ, that is done in the spirit, not in a man made creation. A man made denomination should never be equal to Christ’s powerful church, because the Church transcends denomination. To serve Christ, go to a Church where you feel He is present. In my opinion, Christ is even present in many traditional Catholic churches, because they sincerely want to worship Him, even if they are wrong on certain issues (But, I am wholly against modern Catholicism, which would have been condemned as heresy by every pope before Vatican I I anyway)

About paganism in Catholicism, that is extremely well known. I have even taken tours in the Metropolitan Museum of Art that point out the many pagan accents in the plethora of Catholic idols. A simple search on Google will provide you with overwhelming examples on how Constantine implanted paganism in the church. I encourage you to do your own research, I’m not going to debate that when people far greater than I have provided the world with abundant examples.

This website is a good start- amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_paganism_Catholic_Mithraism

I read a little and had to stop due to the absurdity…WOW…That whole power-over-the-dead thing - are you referring to this:

Scripture -Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

The Papacy claims that its system of worship has been handed down through tradition. They are absolutely correct. But these are not the teachings of Jesus, but rather the traditions of Babylon.

Roman Catholic doctrines such as infant baptism, sprinkling during baptism, teachings on death and immortality, tonsured and celibate priests with power over the dead, prayers to the dead and to relics, repetitive prayers with the use of beads, doctrines on forgiveness of sins, teachings on hell, the mass, and Sunday worship are doctrines actually derived directly from ancient Babylon, not the Bible.

 

[guanophore]

I am not going to respond to everybody individually because it is simply too much,

You really did put a stick in the hornet’s nest. No one appreciates when lies are told about them, and on a Catholic forum, spreading untruths will likely get a vigorous response. Do you believe what is written here?
AnticatholicWebsite:

The Papacy claims that its system of worship has been handed down through tradition. They are absolutely correct. But these are not the teachings of Jesus, but rather the traditions of Babylon.

Roman Catholic doctrines such as infant baptism, sprinkling during baptism, teachings on death and immortality, tonsured and celibate priests with power over the dead, prayers to the dead and to relics, repetitive prayers with the use of beads, doctrines on forgiveness of sins, teachings on hell, the mass, and Sunday worship are doctrines actually derived directly from ancient Babylon, not the Bible.

 

[Sy_Noe]

But you did respond further…see below…LOL…just being silly…

Ok Joe I wasn’t even going to return to the thread to look at any responses but you got me so I’ll reply just one more time. So backatcha with a

 

[SteveVH]

I have zero interest in getting into a drawn out debate about this so don’t think anything of it if I don’t respond to anything further. IOW don’t think “gotcha” if I don’t reply. But just to answer and offer what I have come to believe thus far at this point in my faith walk as I’ve searched for truth.

I believe the following…

LOL. You must have taken pointers from Lois Lerner:

“I am completely innocent but I will not be answering any of your questions on the grounds that it may incriminate me.”

 

[joe371]

Ok Joe I wasn’t even going to return to the thread to look at any responses but you got me so I’ll reply just one more time. So backatcha with a

LOL…Just in case you return…

 

[wmscott]

What bothers me is that there are threads like this that go on for pages and pages with no real topic to follow.

Did Jesus find a Church? Yes.

Did the Apostles spread the Word? Yes.

Did the Church fall into heresy? No.

Is the Church Universal? Yes.

Therefore am I a part of the Catholic Church? It depends who you ask.

So what’s the thread gonna be about? My guess is that the Lutherans say their Church is the same one except it’s reformed and the Catholics are just wrong about some things. 66 books will be brought up. Maybe the Baptists and Evangelicals will discuss infant Baptism and the Eucharist. Someone will probably question the role of Mary and then bring up the crusades. Lots of snide comments I’m sure, and loving ones that still get the thread no where. Just another generic “Protestants are wrong” thread.

See you guys later!

dronald I am going to say this in all good intent and humor. You are so right that you are part of the Catholic Church. Not in full communion, choosing which “Stuff” to believe or not believe, but Catholic all the same. We call it being a cafeteria Catholics

I just hope all see this for what it is, a little humor. Our Protestant brothers and sisters are loved by God just as we are. CCC 818 &819

 

[Mystophilus]

About paganism in Catholicism, that is extremely well known. I have even taken tours in the Metropolitan Museum of Art that point out the many pagan accents in the plethora of Catholic idols. A simple search on Google will provide you with overwhelming examples on how Constantine implanted paganism in the church. I encourage you to do your own research, I’m not going to debate that when people far greater than I have provided the world with abundant examples.

Go to your nearest secular university. Go into the History Department. Find the people whose peer-reviewed expertise grants them the right to teach History of Religion, Post-Classical History, or anything similar. Talk to them about this. I guarantee that you will learn a great deal of new and interesting things in a short time.

There are pagan elements in Catholicism only in the same sense that there are pagan elements in the English language.

 

[Mystophilus]

Silly Catholics; just Google why the Pope is the Anti Christ, how you worship Mary and Constantine invented Catholicism and you’re bound to understand why your Religion is so false? Gosh, don’t you know anything about how the internet works?

You’ll be leaving Catholicism in no time. They don’t just allow anything on the internet.

 

[Mystophilus]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church circa AD 33, in Jerusalem, on Pentecost, and that the apostles and their successors, belonged to the Catholic Church?

Only if we understand that the “Catholic Church” in question is the collective, worldwide Church, including the Orthodox, the Lutherans, the Roman Catholics, the Copts, the various Evangelicals, and even the motley Anglicans. That is what we Anglicans say and what we mean when we recite the Nicene Creed.

 

[cmodrmac]

yes to your question - Jesus Christ founded the Church

we are a branch of the holy catholic church - the via media

Pope Henry VIII ceased allegiance to the Pope-he did not found a new religion

 

[guanophore]

Only if we understand that the “Catholic Church” in question is the collective, worldwide Church, including the Orthodox, the Lutherans, the Roman Catholics, the Copts, the various Evangelicals, and even the motley Anglicans. That is what we Anglicans say and what we mean when we recite the Nicene Creed.

This has some elements similar to the Catholic understanding. We don’t assume that any “grroup” or denomination is a member of the Church, but only individuals within them. God knows those who are His, and not all those who profess to believe in Him actually do, no matter what communion they espouse.

The Catholic Church teaches that it alone retains the “fullness” of the Church founded by Christ, as the four marks of the Church remain.

 

[dronald]

dronald I am going to say this in all good intent and humor. You are so right that you are part of the Catholic Church. Not in full communion, choosing which “Stuff” to believe or not believe, but Catholic all the same. We call it being a cafeteria Catholics

I just hope all see this for what it is, a little humor. Our Protestant brothers and sisters are loved by God just as we are. CCC 818 &819

<3

 

[benjohnson]

Evangelical: I hear you Catholics worship Mary!

Catholic: [pulls out cardboard prayer card for Our Lady of Sorrows out of his pocket]

Evangelical: Yes! I see you do worship Mary… you even cary a card around so you can worship her whenever you’d like!

Catholic: (With a mischievous smile) You’re wrong! I don’t worship Mary… I worship this card.

Evangelical: [runs away… screaming]

 

[joe371]

http://www.discountcatholicproducts.com/Assets/33/240/img/HC9-265E.jpg

Evangelical: I hear you Catholics worship Mary!

Catholic: [pulls out cardboard prayer card for Our Lady of Sorrows out of his pocket]

Evangelical: Yes! I see you do worship Mary… you even cary a card around so you can worship her whenever you’d like!

Catholic: (With a mischievous smile) You’re wrong! I don’t worship Mary… I worship this card.

Evangelical: [runs away… screaming]

Did I miss something…

 

[House_Harkonnen]

OK, I think we are getting somewhere. The original church founded by Jesus, as opposed to the RCC and all of the PCs, still exists today, and that one original church is not limited to a specific denomination.

Where can one go to find that one original church, today?

Anywhere where the word is taught and sacraments administered.

 

[joe371]

Only if we understand that the “Catholic Church” in question is the collective, worldwide Church, including the Orthodox, the Lutherans, the Roman Catholics, the Copts, the various Evangelicals, and even the motley Anglicans. That is what we Anglicans say and what we mean when we recite the Nicene Creed.

Jesus established the Catholic Church and all of the non-Catholic Churches in the world today? OK.

So far one person has suggested that Constantine played a role in the establishment of the RCC; another said its establishment cannot be determined, and you suggest that every time, in the past, as well as the future, a church is started by someone like for example, the Evangelical Church to which my sister belongs, the Baptist Church the Presbyterian church etc., it can be considered the church of Matthew 16 where Jesus says: I will build my church.

OK.

 

[joe371]

Anywhere where the word is taught and sacraments administered.

I understand: Any church regardless of denomination where the word is taught and sacraments administered, is the church to which the apostles belonged when they walked the earth, as per the OP?

 

[House_Harkonnen]

I understand: Any church regardless of denomination where the word is taught and sacraments administered, is the church to which the apostles belonged when they walked the earth, as per the OP?

Sort of. The church is people, not a denomination. Although denominations are visible elements of it.