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Isaiah45_9
Guest
The Church Militant consists of people. And that’s why Catholic is not a denomination.
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House_Harkonnen
Guest
The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is not a denomination, all Christians are part of it. But the Roman Catholic Church is.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Negative. The Church is Catholic and it has been here since Christ and his assigned Rock, whose successor is in Rome.
Just as we don’t get to redefine your terms for the doctrinal statements you use, you don’t get to redefine what we are.
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joe371
Guest
So the RCC is a denomination, existing from the 1st century to the present, and all of the PCs comprise the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church; it is not a denomination, and all Christians are part of it, except the RCC Christians because as you say, the RCC is a denomination and The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is not. That makes no sense to me.
Logically speaking: The one visible church that the apostles belonged to in the 1st century, is the church that every Christian today should aspire to belong. For me it’s the RCC; for you it’s every Protestant Church, as the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Augustine would absolutely disagree with you, and so many other early church leaders. He belonged to the RCC and had this to say:
willcoxson.net/faith/augprot.htm
“If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel, what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, ‘I do not believe’? Indeed, I would not believe in the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so” (*Against the Letter of Mani Called ‘The Foundation’ *5:6).
Apostolic Succession:
“If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement . . . In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found” (*Letters *53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).
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joe371
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:sad_yes:
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Randy_Carson
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Constantine (AD 325).
Now, to be fair, many Protestants would go along with the idea that Jesus founded the (Catholic) Church beginning with the Apostles, but they would argue that at some point (the specifics vary and get a little fuzzy), the Church went “off the rails” at which time the Protestant Reformation became a God-ordained necessity.
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House_Harkonnen
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So the RCC is a denomination, existing from the 1st century to the present, and all of the PCs comprise the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church; it is not a denomination, and all Christians are part of it, except the RCC Christians because as you say, the RCC is a denomination and The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is not. That makes no sense to me.
Logically speaking: The one visible church that the apostles belonged to in the 1st century, is the church that every Christian today should aspire to belong. For me it’s the RCC; for you it’s every Protestant Church, as the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Augustine would absolutely disagree with you, and so many other early church leaders. He belonged to the RCC and had this to say:
willcoxson.net/faith/augprot.htm
“If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel, what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, ‘I do not believe’? Indeed, I would not believe in the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so” (*Against the Letter of Mani Called ‘The Foundation’ *5:6).
Apostolic Succession:
“If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement . . . In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found” (*Letters *53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).
Sort of. The 1st century church didn’t believe any distinctive Catholic dogma, those took centuries to develop.
No, computers cannot be part of a church.
That’s because you added to what I said. Where did I say that RC Christians aren’t a part of it? Christians of all denominations are the church.
I totally disagree with Augustine on many things. He did say even sex within marriage is venially sinful. Dude had some problems. But he was right about other things.
You have dishonestly capitalized “Catholic Church” trying to equate that church with the Roman Catholic Church. Of course in Latin there are no capital letters, so he really said “catholic church”.
Fine. But of course he retracted later on his belief that Peter himself is the Rock, favoring the Protestant view that Peter’s confession is the Rock.
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dronald
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I would love some sources for your claims for my own studies please?
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House_Harkonnen
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Which claims specifically?
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dronald
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The two regarding Augustine:
- Sex within marriage is venially sinful.
- Peter’s confession was the rock and NOT Peter himself.
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House_Harkonnen
Guest
For intercourse of marriage for the sake of begetting has not fault; but for the satisfying of lust, but yet with husband or wife, by reason of the faith of the bed, it has venial fault: but adultery or fornication has deadly fault, and, through this, continence from all intercourse is indeed better even than the intercourse of marriage itself, which takes place for the sake of begetting. But because that Continence is of larger desert, but to pay the due of marriage is no crime, but to demand it beyond the necessity of begetting is a venial fault, but to commit fornication or adultery is a crime to be punished; charity of the married ought to beware, lest while it seek for itself occasion of larger honor, it do that for its partner which cause condemnation. Of the Good of Marriage, Chapter 6.
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’…But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).
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benjohnson
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Here’s a rather well-written essay on Augustine’s marriage apologetics - it also records how Augustine thought sex within marriage is both good and sinful, and who he was countering. I’m sympathetic to Augustines view - as he presents a middle ground against two extremes.
churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/augustine.pdf
Augustine, later in life in his ‘Retractions’, said that one could chose between the two meanings of ‘rock’:
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’…But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).
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benjohnson
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Ignore my previous post - it seems that the man in league with Baron Vladimir Harkonnen did reply well. 
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joe371
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Surprisingly no one (non-Catholic that is) has mentioned that possibly, at least on this thread…
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joe371
Guest
The 1st century Catholic Church which Ignatius of Antioch belonged to is the same Catholic Church that Augustine belonged to. Of course doctrine developed e.g. the Trinity…
LOL…
CC stands for Catholic Church; PC stands for Protestant Church; not personal computer.
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joe371
Guest
You say the church is not a denomination ("The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is not a denomination). You then said: “all Christians are part of it. But the Roman Catholic Church is.”
The Roman Catholic Church is what???
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House_Harkonnen
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A denomination.
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joe371
Guest
OK. Agreed - “Christians of all denominations are the church”. As per the Nicene Creed, written by the RCC: “We believe in one holy
catholic and apostolic Church”. This creed did not apply to any PCs (protestant Churches) when it was drafted, due to the fact that none of them had been started - correct?
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joe371
Guest
How many denominations (denominations we see in the world today e.g. Baptist, Lutheran Evangelical etc.) existed alongside the RCC in the 2nd and 3rd centuries?
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joe371
Guest
Great point. We should never cheery pick leaders, in isolation of the Magisterial office. For example Thomas Aquinas questioned certain teachings about Mary, but in the end deferred to the Magisterial office of the RCC.
Now I am dishonest…
I capitalize it to draw a distinction between the visible CC and the invisible cc comprised of all churches, something a non-Catholic asked me to do.They are not mutually exclusive as per the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am not here to try and change your mind so I digress…
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