Question for Non-Catholics...

[mikemck]

You’re denying reality. They were Christians. They now are not Christians.

I’m just telling you what the Bible says. You’re free to believe it or not believe it.

Yes you can. People do it all the time. We live in time. We grow and change. The things of childhood and youth become forgotten. A youth can have a very strong relationship with Christ during the college and early career years. Then, something happens that pulls him away from the practice of his faith - he falls in love with someone who does not share his beliefs, or he gets a job that requires him to be in remote places where there are no churches, or he simply becomes busy with the day to day of staying alive in this material world. The things of youth, including his relationship with Christ, are first neglected, and then entirely forgotten.

And, as I pointed out to you before, we’re not talking about backsliding, we’re talking about atheism.

If you were with someone all day every day for months on end, then you had a relationship with them, right? But, if you haven’t spoken to them in 20 or more years, then you no longer have that relationship, do you?

The problem is that you cannot have a relationship with someone and then claim that they do not exist.

Either you believe that they don’t exist, or you never had a relationship with them.

And yet, it happens.

Let’s say that I was hit by a train and lost both of my legs in the accident.

One day, about ten years later, you and I sat down over dinner and I told you, “I lost my legs when I was hit by a train, but I no longer believe that trains exist.”

Would that seem reasonable to you?

Because they told me

Again, they may very well have believed that they were saved. Again, the Bible tells us that there are false converts.

and because I lived with them and saw how they lived. They were definitely Christians. They were not pretending in public, and then doing something else in private, and they certainly weren’t trying to impress anyone.

Of course, but these people were never just pretending.

No, I didn’t say that the Bible said that they were pretending. Please try to pay attention to my posts if you’re going to respond to them.

The Bible tells us that they may show all of the outward appearances and even appear very pious and charitable. But the Bible still calls them false converts.

Then why does St. Paul continually warn Christians not to fall away?

He doesn’t, unless you believe that the author of Hebrews is Paul.

Even so, Heb 6:6 is precisely one of the passages that supports the Bible’s teaching about false converts.

It’s easy to throw around the phrase “fall away”, but you neglect to cite the entire passage in it’s proper context.

If we can’t fall away, then why discuss the ways to avoid this at such great length, in every letter of his?

Name one.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m just telling you what the Bible says. You’re free to believe it or not believe it.

And, as I pointed out to you before, we’re not talking about backsliding, we’re talking about atheism.

According to whom? I was talking about people who used to be Christians (“saved”) and who now are not, anymore. What they believe now is of no consequence, other than the fact that they no longer believe in Jesus or practice Christianity.

The problem is that you cannot have a relationship with someone and then claim that they do not exist.

Ordinarily, no, but since Jesus isn’t visible to us, it’s easy enough for someone in this situation to look back and conclude that they once had an imaginary friend named “Jesus.” He seemed very real to them at the time, but now, although they remember what that felt like, they can’t seem to find Him in their life any more.

This is a very, very common experience.

Let’s say that I was hit by a train and lost both of my legs in the accident.

One day, about ten years later, you and I sat down over dinner and I told you, “I lost my legs when I was hit by a train, but I no longer believe that trains exist.”

Would that seem reasonable to you?

No, but if it seemed reasonable to you, there would be very little I could do about it.

I’m not saying that I think apostasy is a good thing, or even a sane thing - all I’m saying is that it exists, and that a lot of Christians fall away from their faith - even good Protestant Christians who were absolutely positive at the time that they were eternally saved. People who, at the time, talked exactly the same way that you do right now, as a matter of fact.

Again, they may very well have believed that they were saved. Again, the Bible tells us that there are false converts.

In which case, how can I know that you are not a false convert?

For that matter, how can you know that you are not a false convert?

No - it is much more reasonable for me to believe that you really do have a living relationship with Jesus, just as you say you do - and also to believe those who told me that they did, too, when we were in college together, and also to believe them now when they say that they have lost their faith, and no longer practice the Christian faith in any form.

After all, Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:13 that we must “persevere to the end” meaning that there are some who might not. OH, but Jesus isn’t St. Paul, so that doesn’t really count, does it?

Here are some verses from St. Paul that you can look up for yourself, to prove that I’m not manipulating the Scriptures in any way - II Timothy 2:12; Romans 11:22; Philippians 2:12, and I Corinthians 9:27.

And of course as mentioned above, Hebrews 6:4-6, which, though not written by Paul, is still part of the Inspired Word of God, and fully necessary for our salvation, along with every other jot and mark.

 

[mikemck]

According to whom?

According to the Bible.

I was talking about people who used to be Christians (“saved”) and who now are not, anymore.

We were talking about people who claimed once to be Christians, but now are atheists.

Ordinarily, no, but since Jesus isn’t visible to us, it’s easy enough for someone in this situation to look back and conclude that they once had an imaginary friend named “Jesus.”

If Jesus was imaginary to them, then they couldn’t have had a real relationship with Him. If they did not have a real relationship with Him, then they weren’t Christians.

No

Why is it not reasonable, but you defend so strongly the very same logic when it’s applied to those the Bible calls false converts?

Either it’s reasonable, thus, your argument is reasonable, or it’s unreasonable, thus, your argument is unreasonable.

People who, at the time, talked exactly the same way that you do right now, as a matter of fact.

In which case, how can you know that you are not a false convert?

Because I can look honestly at my life and my relationship to Christ and judge it in light of scripture to see that it is consistent with that of someone who’s been saved.

Here are some verses from St. Paul that you can look up for yourself, to prove that I’m not manipulating the Scriptures in any way - II Timothy 2:12

Not only did you take this verse out of context by not quoting the entire passage, the very next verse (v 13) tells us that Christ cannot disown us.

Romans 11:22

Once again, we see that you’ve taken a verse out of context. The very next verse that you conveniently forgot to mention (v 23) tells us that he is talking about those who were never saved to begin with.

Philippians 2:12

Actually, this verse says nothing at all about “falling away”. It’s simply an exhortation from Paul to carry on in the faith until they meet again.

I Corinthians 9:27.

He’s not talking about being a “castaway” from salvation, but about shunned by Christians for bringing reproach on the name of Christ.

And of course as mentioned above, Hebrews 6:4-6

Oh, you mean part of the passage I cited that illustrates the Bible’s teaching about false converts?

 

[Wammy101]

If my kid decided to convert to Catholicism, I would breifly ask why, and then let them go ahead with it. It is their lives.

 

[jmcrae]

If my kid decided to convert to Catholicism, I would breifly ask why, and then let them go ahead with it. It is their lives.

Thank you for bringing us back on topic.

Mick, I will let you have the last word on that, since I have said everything I mean to, and since you can read my comments above over again, I don’t need to repeat myself.

 

[flameburns623]

Just wondering…

If you had a child, whom you raised in your faith, and then as an adult they decided to convert to Catholicism; would you still support them in their decision, such as attend their confirmation? What would you think? What would you say to them?

I’m in the process of converting from Baptist and I really haven’t let my family know yet that I am in the process of doing so(though they know I have been thinking about it)

I guess I’m just frightened because I feel like I’m seperating myself from my family in a way. They won’t listen to why I’m doing this, and I’m afraid if I go too far with discussions it will just make them hostile toward me. Right now its a subject thats avoided. I really would like for them to attend my confirmation at Easter, but I’m not real sure how or when I should approach the subject. Any ideas of insight into what may be best is appreciated.

Thanks

In most cases these days, families accept a child’s voluntary change of faith with some aplomb. In my case I would in fact support my daughter in any way she felt needful. I certainly would attend her confirmation–heck, I like a well-executed, reverent Catholic Mass. I listen to some of the ones on EWTN at times. Used to watch 'em when we had televisions in the house.

To stay close to the topic at hand: I have real issues with the Roman Catholic faith and as my daughter and I had opportunity I would make those issues clear to her. On the other hand, I don’t consider the RCC to be a pseudo-Christian counterfeit of the Christian faith and I would not fear for her salvation as a Catholic. (Were she to become a JW or LDS, f’rinstance, I would have greater concerns).

Some of your post clearly seeks advice on how to handle YOUR family, which I cannot easily provide from afar. My advice is that for the first many months or years you focus upon being a loving and dutiful part of your family while remaining loyal to your convictions. Some friction-points will necessarily arise: when you sign yourself before and after prayers, for example; or when you have to decline meat on Fridays in Lent. If your family sees that you take these little things seriously without using your newfound faith as a club or as an excuse to be eccentric, a gradual sense of respect for your faith will grow. As they have questions, try to answer briefly; and if you cannot, then excuse yourself to study the issue and come back with a brief but complete answer. Don’t dump mounds of printed literature, e-mail links, or other material into the laps of everyone in your family. If one or more of your relatives deems it needful to try to ‘strongarm’ you away from Catholicism, let them know this is not appreciated and ask them to cease and desist. Remain as close as they will allow you to do, but recognize that you are not obligated to allow even close family to assault your conscience.

Hope these tips are helpful.