Question for Non-Catholics...

[jmcrae]

1. You are in Christ.
   Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
   You are in Christ just like Noah was in the ark. The ark was a picture of Jesus and when Noah went into that ark God shut the door. Noah may have fallen down a lot of times in that ark, but he never fell out of it. Your security is not in a place, it is in a Person and His name is Jesus. And if you’re in Jesus, you’re secure and if you’re not in Jesus you’re not secure.

People can and have deliberately jumped off the Barque of Peter - the Ark of Salvation that Christ has established. We cannot guarantee our future behaviour.

1. You already have eternal life.
   Heareth My word, and believeth on him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)
   Everlasting life is not something you get when you die. Everlasting life is something you get when you receive Jesus. If I have everlasting life, when can it end? Suppose I had it 10 years and it ended. Did I have everlasting life? No, I had a 10-year life. Whatever you have, if you ever lose it, whatever it was it wasn’t everlasting.

1. The Lord Jesus Christ is ever interceding for you.
   I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given Me; for they are Thine. (John 17:9)
   Jesus also prayed: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil…Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word” (John 17:15, 20). Say your name in that verse because Jesus prayed for you! Has Jesus ever prayed a prayer that wasn’t answered? No, not one (see John 11:42 and Hebrews 7:25).

All of these things assume that the person is in the Church and is persevering in faith.

The writer of the letter to the Hebrews had some very unkind things to say about people who fall away from Christ after having tasted of His mercy. (6:4-6)

None of which negates the Bible’s condemnation of praying to the dead.

What this verse tells us is that we don’t pray to the dead. The Saints are alive.

 

[mikemck]

We have the ability to separate ourselves, though, when we deliberately sin - when we lapse from the faith, and put ourselves ahead of Christ.

The Bible says that if we serve sin, we’re not saved in the first place.

In the Early Church…

Don’t care. What does the Bible say?

They based this attitude on the teaching of Christ, which today we find in Matthew 24:13, where Jesus, after describing the false religious leaders, explains that only those who persevere to the end will be saved - those who talk the talk but don’t walk the walk until the very end will be destroyed.

That’s right. It says nothing about losing one’s salvation.

St. Paul repeated this teaching in II Timothy 2:12, stating that those who deny Christ will in turn be denied by Christ

We’re not talking about those deny Christ. We’re talking about those who have surrendered to Christ.

If he had thought that he was “once saved, always saved,” why would he have gone to so much trouble?

If he didn’t, then why did he write so many of the verses I’ve cited?

Then why aren’t we perfect? Why do we still sin?

Because we’re sinners. Just like Mary, just like the pope.

No one can presume that he is among the predestined.

But the Bible does tell us that we can know that we are saved.

 

[mikemck]

The writer of the letter to the Hebrews had some very unkind things to say about people who fall away from Christ after having tasted of His mercy. (6:4-6)

Actually, these people are in the church, but not saved in the first place.

What this verse tells us is that we don’t pray to the dead. The Saints are alive.

No, this verse doesn’t say anything at all about the saints.

If the saints aren’t dead, then how did they get to Heaven? Were they raptured? Why do we have records of some of their deaths?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Actually, these people are in the church, but not saved in the first place.

No, this verse doesn’t say anything at all about the saints.

If the saints aren’t dead, then how did they get to Heaven? Were they raptured? Why do we have records of some of their deaths?

The saints died and went to Heaven, which is the afterlife. Hence, they are alive with Jesus in Heaven.

 

[mikemck]

The saints died and went to Heaven, which is the afterlife.

So then, they are dead.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

So then, they are dead.

You believe in the afterlife? When you say you are saved, you are saying that you are going to Heaven, right?

 

[mikemck]

You believe in the afterlife? When you say you are saved, you are saying that you are going to Heaven, right?

When I’m dead, yes.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

When I’m dead, yes.

My point is that the saints are alive in Heaven. Death is only the passage to the afterlife.

 

[mikemck]

My point is that the saints are alive in Heaven. Death is only the passage to the afterlife.

But the bottom line is that the Bible makes no such distinction in it’s condemnation of prayers to the dead, whether they be somehow or another “alive” in the afterlife.

It is talking about those who have passed from this world into the next.

This would include the Roman Catholic saints, as well as all saints who have departed this life.

 

[jmcrae]

The Bible says that if we serve sin, we’re not saved in the first place.

You have yet to produce a verse that actually says that. Everything I’ve shown you is talking about Christians (“saved” people) turning around and denying the faith that they once held.

These passages are not referring to people who never heard of or never accepted the Gospel - it’s talking about people who were converted, at one time.

Don’t care. What does the Bible say?

THEY wrote the Bible. Their words are the Bible’s words. Their take on it is what they meant when they were writing the Bible. We can’t look at what they wrote, and then say, Well, it doesn’t matter what they believed - how I interpret (2000 years later) what they wrote, is what matters, not what they thought they were writing down.

But the Bible does tell us that we can know that we are saved.

Yes, it does - along with instructions and exhortations on how to stay saved.

 

[jmcrae]

But the bottom line is that the Bible makes no such distinction in it’s condemnation of prayers to the dead, whether they be somehow or another “alive” in the afterlife.

Actually what the Bible condemns is necromancy - conjuring the dead into our world.

When a Catholic prays with a Saint, he is not conjuring the Saint into this world. The Saint stays in Heaven, and we stay here. No one is transmigrating.

 

[Zooey]

No, actually, there is a button that comes up next to your posts that says, “View Posts”. So, I can still see your posts, even though you’re on my ignore list.

Don’t worry. I don’t expect an apology. It takes a man to apologize and it’s obvious now that you can’t be a man.

Really? You take pride in doing what the Bible calls sin?

I think that tells us pretty much all we need to know.

No, actually, I’m not here to stir up trouble.

My posts were both polite and respectful until you people started to call me names and lie about what I had said.

I said that I hoped you were in the millions Arch-Bishop Sheen was talking about in my signature but I am now convienced that you may be in the 100 since In your own words–

I see. So then, since I do know Roman Catholics, I must hate the Roman Catholic church?

If you want to be this way, that’s fine. But if you look at the post above, another one of your fellow Roman Catholic posters has now recognized that you’re the one calling names here. When so many of your own people see the problems with your behavior toward me, and neither you nor anyone else here can offer even one example to back up your false accusations against me, then I think it’s obvious that the problem lies with you and not me.

Young’un, from over here in the Methodist Amen Corner, you sound like a very angry person. I don’t know what’s set you off, I just know I have been reading this thread from the start, & we have a saying for that kinda talk: “If what you’ve got is Christianity, I believe I’d rather have vanilla”.
Re-read your own posts with a clean eye. Why you feel the need to attack Catholics is your business, but it’s not real polite to do it in their own yard.

Furthermore, the amount of knowledge & understanding you have of the Catholic Church is, forgive me, but IMHO, it’s pretty darn puny.

God bless.

 

[mikemck]

Young’un, from over here in the Methodist Amen Corner, you sound like a very angry person.

Well, I’ve been here less than two days and I’ve been lied about, been called “illiterate”, “an imbecile” and “redneck”. Yes, that’s a pretty good reason to be angry.

Why you feel the need to attack Catholics is your business

And why you feel the need to lie and say that I’ve attacked anyone is yours.

Like I said, even other Roman Catholics here are coming to my defense and apologizing for the treatment I’ve received here.

Conversely, not one of you has been able to give one example to back up your accusations toward me.

Furthermore, the amount of knowledge & understanding you have of the Catholic Church is, forgive me, but IMHO, it’s pretty darn puny.

Well then, I guess it’s a good thing nobody asked your opinion.

 

[mikemck]

Actually what the Bible condemns is necromancy - conjuring the dead into our world.

Actually, what the Bible condemns is all contact with the dead.

 

[mikemck]

You have yet to produce a verse that actually says that.

Actually, I have.

These passages are not referring to people who never heard of or never accepted the Gospel

Your’re right.

It’s talking about those who were never saved.

THEY wrote the Bible. Their words are the Bible’s words.

No, actually the events you’re describing happened after the writings of the scriptures.

But, in any event, the scriptures are the authority, not what the authors did apart from the scriptures.

Well, it doesn’t matter what they believed - how I interpret (2000 years later) what they wrote, is what matters, not what they thought they were writing down.

What they wrote was God-breathed. Therefore, what they wrote is the authority.

Yes, it does - along with instructions and exhortations on how to stay saved.

Once you’re saved, you’re saved. “Staying saved” implies that you can lose your salvation, which, is a completely Unbiblical idea.

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, what the Bible condemns is all contact with the dead.

Jesus never sinned, right?

What do you make of Matthew 17:1-8?

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, I have.

You haven’t produced a single Scripture verse that says “people who commit sins were never members of the Christian community (“saved”) in the first place.”

It’s talking about those who were never saved.

But for some unknown reason were under the spiritual care of Paul’s Bishops?

Come on - put your head on straight - if they had never made a Profession of Faith, then they would not be members of the Pauline communities - but they were.

Which means that, at some point, they made a profession of faith (“got saved” in your terminology) - and then fell away from it.

No, actually the events you’re describing happened after the writings of the scriptures.

People were already being martyred while Paul was still writing his letters, and some of the people who were being taken away were already renouncing their Christian faith. These are the people that Paul is talking about in his letters, who were once Christians and now are no longer.

What they wrote was God-breathed. Therefore, what they wrote is the authority.

What they said was God-breathed, too, and that, too, has authority. (II Thessalonians 2:15)

Once you’re saved, you’re saved. “Staying saved” implies that you can lose your salvation, which, is a completely Unbiblical idea.

What’s un-Biblical is the idea that we can be completely sanctified in this lifetime. No one will be “saved” until they are already up in Heaven. While we are here on earth, we have plenty of opportunities to commit sin - our lives are a constant battle against temptation, and we are so often in need of repentance and reconversion.

 

[Lance]

No, actually, there is a button that comes up next to your posts that says, “View Posts”. So, I can still see your posts, even though you’re on my ignore list.

Let me see if I have this straight. You put me on your ignore list so then you have to click a button to view my posts which you do. That makes about as much sense as the rest of the garbage you post, but I suppose in your mind that makes perfect sense. When I put someone on my ignore list that is jus twhat I do, ignore them.

 

[Zooey]

Well, I’ve been here less than two days and I’ve been lied about, been called “illiterate”, “an imbecile” and “redneck”. Yes, that’s a pretty good reason to be angry.

Well…nobody called you those things. I gotta tell you though, my great-grandmama used to say, “:nope: Don’t take names for yourself…somebody might repeat them”…

And why you feel the need to lie and say that I’ve attacked anyone is yours.

Oh, golly gee whillickers! I gotta go :crying: drown my self in the farm pond; somebody just called me a bad name…Oh, no, wait a minute; I’m a grown-up; I can take at least as good as I give…

Like I said, even other Roman Catholics here are coming to my defense and apologizing for the treatment I’ve received here.

Kinda takes the starch out of your argument of ill-treatment, but we’ll let that pass this time…

Conversely, not one of you has been able to give one example to back up your accusations toward me.

See, now this is just like taking names for yourself. Everybody reading this thread is aware of the fact, that what I actually did, was advise you to do a little research before flying off the handles like that. If you don’t want any practical advise, just don’t take it to heart so…Might make people wonder about “protest[ing] too much”…

Well then, I guess it’s a good thing nobody asked your opinion.

S’okay. I don’t mind giving it. It is a public forum, you know, & I have been a regular for a long time. I got over being shy about saying my piece waaaayyyyy back.
Just because you started something, is no guarantee that everybody is going to let it pass on by. When it comes to what Catholics do & don’t believe, you are, as stated, lacking. A lot lacking.
Look on the bright side: this is a good place to come to find out the truth, instead of a bunch of old myths & legends.

 

[Iraneaus]

W

Conversely, not one of you has been able to give one example to back up your accusations toward me.

Did you just skim over both my posts altogether. Back in post 49 I showed a few things you said that were dripping with condemnation.

God: “What??? What’s that’s that you say, Mike??? I’m sorry, you’ll have to speak up!!! I’m way up here in Heaven and I can’t hear you”.

And my Bible

What blasphemy that you would believe

So then, you admit that your god is too feeble to hear our prayers

I know you may feel like your on a mission and what not, but humbly check yourself. As I said in that post and as I will repeat:

Review Matthew 7:3.