Question for Non-Catholics...

[mikemck]

If you are refering to the once saved always saved doctrine, I don’t accept that. I could be saved then commit some grave sin and lose my salvation

The Bible tells us that once we’re saved, we’re saved. It goes on to tell us that if we keep on sinning, then we were never saved in the first place.

Would you not ask a friend to pray for you?

If by, would I pray to a friend who had died and ask them to pray for me, then, no, I would not.

Do you not believe that good people who have died are with God? Then why would you not ask them to pray for you to the Lord Our God?

Because the Bible forbids praying to the dead.

We don’t believe the saints can do anything except pray to God for us and since they are much closer to Him than we are, He hears them much clearer than us.

God: “What??? What’s that’s that you say, Mike??? I’m sorry, you’ll have to speak up!!! I’m way up here in Heaven and I can’t hear you”.

Saint Brunhilda: “I think he said he’s repenting, Sir.”

God: “OH! OK!..Tell him I said OK…”

How else to explain that someone like Mother Therasa and I will end up in the same place. I will spend much more time in purgatory than she, if she spends any at all.

If you had Jesus, then you wouldn’t have to worry about Purgatory.

If by that you mean that we don’t have to do anything ourselves, I don’t buy that.

The Bible tells us that Jesus alone has purchased the atonement and that there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation.

The priest is a substitute for God.

And my Bible says that God neither has nor needs a substitute.

What blasphemy that you would believe that a sinful man could stand in for a Holy and Righteous God.

If you mean the pope, we believe he is guided by the Holy Spirit when he speaks ex cathedra.

And the Bible tells us that all believers have the Holy Spirit. Never one time does it say anything about a sinful man being declared infallible.

 

[Lance]

Mike,
I grew up in south Georgia with a bunch of red necks who sounded just like you. They had never been to a Catholic service yet they were experts on what we believe. They could spout the Bible verse and chapter and tell us we were not following it. Who do you think decided what went into the Bible and what didn’t? It was the Catholic Church. You say you only know 2 Catholic families and you have the gall to think you are an expert on what we believe, again might I suggest you visit the Appologetics thread where people with much more knowledge of our church can help you with any questions you have.

 

[jmcrae]

The Bible tells us that once we’re saved, we’re saved. It goes on to tell us that if we keep on sinning, then we were never saved in the first place.

Do you have a citation for that?

Because the Bible forbids praying to the dead.

Matthew 22:31-33 (King James Version)

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

God: “What??? What’s that’s that you say, Mike??? I’m sorry, you’ll have to speak up!!! I’m way up here in Heaven and I can’t hear you”.

Saint Brunhilda: “I think he said he’s repenting, Sir.”

God: “OH! OK!..Tell him I said OK…”

More like,

St. Joseph: Remember, God, how you used to bless the work of my hands, and take care of us, when I was responsible for the care of Jesus?

God: Yes, my son - I have very fond memories of that time.

St. Joseph: Well, Mike here is having a similar sort of problem, and he’s asked me to help him pray, by asking you to do what you did for me, back when I was having the same problem.

God: Yes, I remember that. Mike is a good soul, and he’s doing his best, just like you were. Sure, I’ll do the same thing for him as I did for you.

And the Bible tells us that all believers have the Holy Spirit. Never one time does it say anything about a sinful man being declared infallible.

Were not the very writers of the Scriptures themselves “infallible,” (unable to write error) when they were being guided by the Holy Spirit in their writing?

Why would the Holy Spirit have stopped protecting His people?

 

[Lance]

jmcrae, Excellent post. Mike and I seem to have hi-jacked this thread and we should return it to it’s rightful owner. As I suggested to Mike the Appologetics thread is where we should be discussing this.

 

[mikemck]

Do you have a citation for that?

1. Nothing can separate you from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus your Lord.
   For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
   Neither death nor anything that happens after death, or anything that happens while you’re living can separate you from God’s love. If there were no other verse in the Bible that deals with eternal security, this one covers the base.
2. When you are saved, you are made perfect forever.
   For by one offering He [Jesus] hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)
   When Jesus died on the cross, He saved you forever. Jesus offered one sacrifice for sin forever. If you ever lost your salvation, in order for you to be saved again, Jesus would have to die again. By one offering He has perfected forever those who were sanctified.
3. Our Lord always finishes what He begins.
   Being confident of this very thing, that He [God] which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)
   Let me tell you what the Holy Spirit of God does for your salvation. First, He convicted you of sin. Second, He converted you. And the Convictor and the Converter is also the Completer. If God fails to finish what He’s begun God has failed and He cannot fail.
4. You are predestined to be like Jesus.
   For whom He [God] did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)
   God saw you before this world was put in space. He saw you repent of your sin and ask Jesus to save you. And when God saw that, not only did He foreknow it, but also He predestinated it. If it is settled in eternity how can it be undone in time?
5. You are in Christ.
   Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
   You are in Christ just like Noah was in the ark. The ark was a picture of Jesus and when Noah went into that ark God shut the door. Noah may have fallen down a lot of times in that ark, but he never fell out of it. Your security is not in a place, it is in a Person and His name is Jesus. And if you’re in Jesus, you’re secure and if you’re not in Jesus you’re not secure.
6. You already have eternal life.
   Heareth My word, and believeth on him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)
   Everlasting life is not something you get when you die. Everlasting life is something you get when you receive Jesus. If I have everlasting life, when can it end? Suppose I had it 10 years and it ended. Did I have everlasting life? No, I had a 10-year life. Whatever you have, if you ever lose it, whatever it was it wasn’t everlasting.
7. The Lord Jesus Christ is ever interceding for you.
   I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given Me; for they are Thine. (John 17:9)
   Jesus also prayed: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil…Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word” (John 17:15, 20). Say your name in that verse because Jesus prayed for you! Has Jesus ever prayed a prayer that wasn’t answered? No, not one (see John 11:42 and Hebrews 7:25).

Matthew 22:31-33 (King James Version)

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

None of which negates the Bible’s condemnation of praying to the dead.

 

[mikemck]

More like,

St. Joseph: Remember, God, how you used to bless the work of my hands, and take care of us, when I was responsible for the care of Jesus?

God: Yes, my son - I have very fond memories of that time.

St. Joseph: Well, Mike here is having a similar sort of problem, and he’s asked me to help him pray, by asking you to do what you did for me, back when I was having the same problem.

God: Yes, I remember that. Mike is a good soul, and he’s doing his best, just like you were. Sure, I’ll do the same thing for him as I did for you.

I see. So then, you admit that your god is too feeble to hear our prayers and needs an interpreter.

The Bible says that I can go directly to my God.

Were not the very writers of the Scriptures themselves “infallible,” (unable to write error) when they were being guided by the Holy Spirit in their writing?

So then, the pope follows the Apostles and he is infallible, but the Apostles he follows are not?

Why would the Holy Spirit have stopped protecting His people?

Who says that He has?

 

[mikemck]

Mike,
I grew up in south Georgia with a bunch of red necks who sounded just like you.

That’s it. Welcome to my ignore list.

I haven’t been here one day and already I’ve been called “illiterate”, “an imbecile” and now a redneck. Boy, you people sure do know how to make a guy feel welcome.

You say you only know 2 Catholic families

Actually, I didn’t say that I only know two Roman Catholic families.

The question was, how many Roman Catholics do you know who have Southern Accents. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature can see that I was referring to the Roman Catholic families I knew when I was a child, living in an area of the South where there were very few Roman Catholics.

Clearly, I was not speaking of my total experience knowing Roman Catholics.

You know this because you were involved in that thread and falsely accused me of saying that no Roman Catholic can be saved.

For the record, my mother married into a Roman Catholic family.

I went to Catholic school with hundreds of children from Roman Catholic families.

All of the families I attended Catholic churches with were Roman Catholic.

I lived in South Philadelphia where the vast, vast majority of people were Roman Catholics.

So, once again, you’ve been caught in a lie about what I said.

and you have the gall to think you are an expert on what we believe

I know as much as anyone else who was educated in Roman Catholic schools and CCD classes.

But it doesn’t matter because, after calling me a redneck, I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[jmcrae]

I see. So then, you admit that your god is too feeble to hear our prayers and needs an interpreter.

The Bible says that I can go directly to my God.

Sometimes, we don’t know what to pray for. The Saints help us to pray. We also go straight to God. We can pray either alone, or in a group. Doing one (praying in a group) doesn’t render the other (praying alone) un-do-able.

So then, the pope follows the Apostles and he is infallible, but the Apostles he follows are not?

Where did I say that the Apostles were not infallible? I thought I was saying that they were.

Who says that He has?

Well, if He hasn’t, then it’s possible for a sinful man (including the Pope in his role as head of the Church founded by Christ) to be infallible when teaching the people of God, just as the Apostles were infallible in their teachings to the Early Church, both oral and written.

 

[Lance]

That’s it. Welcome to my ignore list.

I haven’t been here one day and already I’ve been called “illiterate”, “an imbecile” and now a redneck. Boy, you people sure do know how to make a guy feel welcome.

Actually, I didn’t say that I only know two Roman Catholic families.

The question was, how many Roman Catholics do you know who have Southern Accents. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature can see that I was referring to the Roman Catholic families I knew when I was a child, living in an area of the South where there were very few Roman Catholics.

Clearly, I was not speaking of my total experience knowing Roman Catholics.

You know this because you were involved in that thread and falsely accused me of saying that no Roman Catholic can be saved.

For the record, my mother married into a Roman Catholic family.

I went to Catholic school with hundreds of children from Roman Catholic families.

All of the families I attended Catholic churches with were Roman Catholic.

I lived in South Philadelphia where the vast, vast majority of people were Roman Catholics.

So, once again, you’ve been caught in a lie about what I said.

I know as much as anyone else who was educated in Roman Catholic schools and CCD classes.

But it doesn’t matter because, after calling me a redneck, I have nothing more to say to you.

Talk about not reading what someone wrote! I never called you a red neck, I said that the red necks I grew up with sounded like you., if you choose to ignore me that is well and good with me.

 

[bankerdavid]

I don’t have all the answers, but there are distinctions that you’re glossing over. In red below:

By believing and practicing things that either are not supported by scripture, or flat out contradict scripture.

The idea that one cannot know that they are saved in this life.We do know we’re saved, we don’t know how long we’ll have to wait to be with our Savior

Praying to the dead.Pray TO the dead? NO! Pray for the dead is more like it. If you’re referring to asking for Saint’s intercession, that’s not praying to the dead…

Denying the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement.Christ performed good works and told us we had to DO good works to get to heaven.

Following rituals as a means of salvation.

Confessing to men for absolution. We don’t confess to men for absolution. God absolves us when we admit our sins to him. In the epistle of James we are told “confess your faults to one another” (Jas. 5:16), and in context this refers to confession to the clergy.

The idea of a man speaking in the place of God.???

And the list goes on…

 

[Iraneaus]

I haven’t been here one day and already I’ve been called “illiterate”, “an imbecile” and now a redneck.

Actually, I believe he only compared things you were saying, to those he had heard from “rednecks”. I believe you said you were from Georgia. (I could be mistaken) It must be different there than in the Carolina’s. Here its not really a big deal to be called a redneck, in many cases its used as a good term, not a derogatory one.

Actually, I didn’t say that I only know two Roman Catholic families.

The question was, how many Roman Catholics do you know who have Southern Accents.

I know quite a lot actually, just for the record.

I know as much as anyone else who was educated in Roman Catholic schools and CCD classes.

I think that is up for debate based on your statements.

---

Furthermore, on the whole redneck thing.

I think you should review Matthew 7:3. Here are a few of things you had to say well before anyone even used the word redneck.

God: “What??? What’s that’s that you say, Mike??? I’m sorry, you’ll have to speak up!!! I’m way up here in Heaven and I can’t hear you”.

And my Bible

What blasphemy that you would believe

So then, you admit that your god is too feeble to hear our prayers

 

[Iraneaus]

The idea that one cannot know that they are saved in this life.

Only God knows.

“As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

Praying to the dead.
KJV: Maccabees 12:43-45

43: And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:
44: For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.
45: And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

Denying the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement.

False.

Following rituals as a means of salvation.

False, too.

Confessing to men for absolution.

KJV:John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

The idea of a man speaking in the place of God.

No one speaks in place of God. There are those who God speaks THROUGH. How do you think we have the bible?

 

[Lance]

That’s it. Welcome to my ignore list.

I haven’t been here one day and already I’ve been called “illiterate”, “an imbecile” and now a redneck. Boy, you people sure do know how to make a guy feel welcome.

Why would we want to make you feel welcome? You come into our place, this is a Catholic forum, try to bully us by calling us liars and trashing our religion and when we defend ourselves you get mad. If you came into my home and acted like you have here I would toss you out.

 

[mikemck]

Why would we want to make you feel welcome? You come into our place, this is a Catholic forum, try to bully us by calling us liars and trashing our religion and when we defend ourselves you get mad. If you came into my home and acted like you have here I would toss you out.

Actually, the only person I said was lying was you and that was because you lied about me and what I said, just like you’re doing now.

Nor, did I “trash” your religion. If someone else disagreeing with your religion amounts to “trashing it” in your mind, then it doesn’t sound like you have much of a religion.

The truth is, I came here and I was both polite and respectful to you. You’re the ones who, right out of the gate, called me “illiterate”, “an imbecille” and “a redneck”.

Two of your own fellow Roman Catholics acknowledged that you’re the ones who started in on me, not the other way around.

Several of your own fellow Roman Catholics have apologized to me for your behavior toward me, because you’re not a big enough man to do it yourself.

 

[rr1213]

Talk about not reading what someone wrote! I never called you a red neck, I said that the red necks I grew up with sounded like you., if you choose to ignore me that is well and good with me.

C’mon, you’re splitting hairs here. That’s equivalent to calling him a redneck.

 

[a_cermak]

I would agree only to the extent that my child knows Christ and is a practicing Christian. Afterall, we are talking about decisions here that have eternal consequences. That second sacrificed on earth “squabbling” might translate into a very long time in the after life.

But if you are going to be deprived of her presence in the afterlife–all the more reason not to waste the limited time on Earth. I honestly think that people come to conclusions about faith themselves and that very little (other than maybe marriage) can convince someone to change their faith to suit another person. And if the faith they choose is radically unsuited to them, then they’ll discover that for themselves anyway.

 

[Lance]

Actually, the only person I said was lying was you and that was because you lied about me and what I said, just like you’re doing now.

Nor, did I “trash” your religion. If someone else disagreeing with your religion amounts to “trashing it” in your mind, then it doesn’t sound like you have much of a religion.

The truth is, I came here and I was both polite and respectful to you. You’re the ones who, right out of the gate, called me “illiterate”, “an imbecille” and “a redneck”.

Two of your own fellow Roman Catholics acknowledged that you’re the ones who started in on me, not the other way around.

Several of your own fellow Roman Catholics have apologized to me for your behavior toward me, because you’re not a big enough man to do it yourself.

You said you were putting me on your ignore list. Obviously you lied about that. As for the ‘redneck’ thing, I say, “If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck chances are it’s a duck.” Don’t look for an apology from me because you will never get it. If someone thinks I am out of line they should bring it up to me not go behind my back and apologize for things I have no intention of retracting. They have a right to disagree with me but not to offer you an apology on my behalf. I take pride in my behavior toward you and all other anti-Catholics. I don’t put up with your ridiculousness. You are anti-Catholic for some reason and you are here just to stir up trouble. I said that I hoped you were in the millions Arch-Bishop Sheen was talking about in my signature but I am now convienced that you may be in the 100 since In your own words–

*For the record, my mother married into a Roman Catholic family.

I went to Catholic school with hundreds of children from Roman Catholic families.

All of the families I attended Catholic churches with were Roman Catholic.

I lived in South Philadelphia where the vast, vast majority of people were Roman Catholics.
.*

 

[Lance]

C’mon, you’re splitting hairs here. That’s equivalent to calling him a redneck.

OK, that’s your opinion. I was just stating a fact that he sounds like the ‘rednecks’ I knew in Georgia. I have no idea if he is or not and don’t really care.

 

[mikemck]

You said you were putting me on your ignore list. Obviously you lied about that.

No, actually, there is a button that comes up next to your posts that says, “View Posts”. So, I can still see your posts, even though you’re on my ignore list.

Don’t look for an apology from me because you will never get it.

Don’t worry. I don’t expect an apology. It takes a man to apologize and it’s obvious now that you can’t be a man.

I take pride in my behavior toward you and all other anti-Catholics.

Really? You take pride in doing what the Bible calls sin?

I think that tells us pretty much all we need to know.

You are anti-Catholic for some reason and you are here just to stir up trouble.

No, actually, I’m not here to stir up trouble.

My posts were both polite and respectful until you people started to call me names and lie about what I had said.

I said that I hoped you were in the millions Arch-Bishop Sheen was talking about in my signature but I am now convienced that you may be in the 100 since In your own words–

*For the record, my mother married into a Roman Catholic family.

I went to Catholic school with hundreds of children from Roman Catholic families.

All of the families I attended Catholic churches with were Roman Catholic.

I lived in South Philadelphia where the vast, vast majority of people were Roman Catholics.
.*

I see. So then, since I do know Roman Catholics, I must hate the Roman Catholic church?

If you want to be this way, that’s fine. But if you look at the post above, another one of your fellow Roman Catholic posters has now recognized that you’re the one calling names here. When so many of your own people see the problems with your behavior toward me, and neither you nor anyone else here can offer even one example to back up your false accusations against me, then I think it’s obvious that the problem lies with you and not me.

 

[jmcrae]

1. Nothing can separate you from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus your Lord.
   For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
   Neither death nor anything that happens after death, or anything that happens while you’re living can separate you from God’s love. If there were no other verse in the Bible that deals with eternal security, this one covers the base.

We have the ability to separate ourselves, though, when we deliberately sin - when we lapse from the faith, and put ourselves ahead of Christ.

In the Early Church, one problem they had was with people who, when faced with the lions, would recant their faith in public. There was a lot of debate over whether such people could be readmitted into fellowship with the Church. Obviously, they did not believe that everyone was automatically “saved” once and for all. These people had done something to violate their salvation, and they needed to go through a period of reconversion. (The debate was over whether they should be allowed to go through a process of reconversion, or whether they should just be banned from fellowship with the Church, entirely. In the end the Church opted for reconversion, which included seven years of public penance, eating only bread and water, and wearing only sack-cloth and ashes.)

They based this attitude on the teaching of Christ, which today we find in Matthew 24:13, where Jesus, after describing the false religious leaders, explains that only those who persevere to the end will be saved - those who talk the talk but don’t walk the walk until the very end will be destroyed.

St. Paul repeated this teaching in II Timothy 2:12, stating that those who deny Christ will in turn be denied by Christ, but those who persevere to the end will be saved. St. Paul endured suffering and even allowed himself to be treated like a criminal, in order to remain in Christ. If he had thought that he was “once saved, always saved,” why would he have gone to so much trouble?

He explains why, in his letter to the Phillipians, 2:12 - because he must work out his salvation in fear and trembling. In I Corinthians 9:27, he drives himself in constant spiritual discipline like a runner preparing for a race, in case he brings others to Christ, but then fails to come to Christ, himself.

1. When you are saved, you are made perfect forever.
   For by one offering He [Jesus] hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)
   When Jesus died on the cross, He saved you forever. Jesus offered one sacrifice for sin forever. If you ever lost your salvation, in order for you to be saved again, Jesus would have to die again. By one offering He has perfected forever those who were sanctified.

Then why aren’t we perfect? Why do we still sin? (Perhaps this verse is talking about what we will be like, after we have persevered until the end.)

1. Our Lord always finishes what He begins.
   Being confident of this very thing, that He [God] which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)
   Let me tell you what the Holy Spirit of God does for your salvation. First, He convicted you of sin. Second, He converted you. And the Convictor and the Converter is also the Completer. If God fails to finish what He’s begun God has failed and He cannot fail.

Yes, but this presumes that we are persevering, too.

1. You are predestined to be like Jesus.
   For whom He [God] did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)
   God saw you before this world was put in space. He saw you repent of your sin and ask Jesus to save you. And when God saw that, not only did He foreknow it, but also He predestinated it. If it is settled in eternity how can it be undone in time?

No one can presume that he is among the predestined. (Obviously, since some people go to Hell, this verse cannot be referring to everyone, but only to some. And even the predestined are predestined to persevere until the end - but nobody can just sit back and presume that they don’t have to do anything, not even the predestined.)

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