Question for Orthodox believers.

[Tradycja]

This question is for the Eastern Orthodox believers on these forums:

Does the Orthodox Church teach that there is ***salvation outside the Orthodox Church? ***

 

[Hesychios]

Respectfully I suggest you find an Orthodox discussion forum for an answer to your question.

 

[Eucharisted]

rusjournal.com/salvation.html

Some notes I’d like to make: Don’t trust Orthodox sources to know Catholicism. I know that sounds harsh, but those Orthodox I have met do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches. If you wish to know what the Church teaches, I suggest Catholic sources, such as www.vatican.va and www.catholic.com and the Ask An Apologist forum.

For example, an elderly Japanese woman, a neighbor fo mine, passed away. While she was in a coma, I prayed in her stead that I had accepted Orthodoxy in its fullness, and begged the saints to accept this prayer as if it were from her. I guess I’ll find out later if it worked or not, and I urge Orthodox people do perform this practice for all heretics and pagans who are dying.

To me, this practice - whether particular or geneal in Orthodoxy - seems similar to the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead.

Fifthly, there is a question about the nature of Hades, or what the papists might call “Limbo.” Archbishop +IOANN of the Synod of Milan, a theologian of extraordinary abilities and the spiritual son of the Valaam/Pskov elder and Schema-bishop +THEODORE (Irtel), is of the opinion that hades was not destroyed at the Resurrection, but remains, in some form, to provide a place of natural happiness (though not the presence of God, and therefore this happiness is not unmixed with sorrow) for those who have departed outside the faith for faults not of their own. This is a highly controversial stance, and I hold a position of neutrality on it. Some church fathers have held that the “Bosom of Abraham” is just this place (whether one wants to call it Hades or not), a place that papists forgot about, and then reinvented it as “Limbo” centuries later.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches about limbo: Limbo, Gehenna, and Purgatory

 

[Patrick1982]

rusjournal.com/salvation.html

Some notes I’d like to make: Don’t trust Orthodox sources to know Catholicism. I know that sounds harsh, but those Orthodox I have met do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches. If you wish to know what the Church teaches, I suggest Catholic sources, such as www.vatican.va and www.catholic.com and the Ask An Apologist forum.

To me, this practice - whether particular or geneal in Orthodoxy - seems similar to the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches about limbo: Limbo, Gehenna, and Purgatory

Really, do you think we believe that we can accept Christ and his Holy, Orthodox, and Catholic Church for another, or are you trying to take the obviously well-meant prayer of someone who obviously is a bit confused and use it to make us look like whackos? No, we don’t believe that; it doesnt work that way.

I don’t think the OP even asked about Catholicism so I don’t know what those links are for.

Yes, there are Orthodox Christians who are ignorant of Catholicism, and equally there are Catholics who are ignorant of Orthodoxy. I was born and raised Roman Catholic and was one for 26 years of my life, and i’m not ignorant of Catholic teachings. A good number of folks on here seem to believe that we are at worst willful schismatics, and at best simply ignorant of Catholic teachings. How could it be anything else that seperates us? If we believe filioque is heretical, it must just be that we misunderstand it, it certainly couldn’t be that we have any real point- and so it goes with many other objections. Blah, blah… check out an Orthodox forum for the best answer to your query.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

… it certainly couldn’t be that we have any real point- and so it goes with many other objections. Blah, blah… check out an Orthodox forum for the best answer to your query.

Respectfully I suggest you find an Orthodox discussion forum for an answer to your question.

Why?

Why can’t you point to a source that would answer the question?

Why must one leave this forum?

 

[Eucharisted]

Why?

Why can’t you point to a source that would answer the question?

Why must one leave this forum?

Because they don’t have the answers. Either that or they want to expose you to Orthodoxy, and thereby, suck you into it. Or it could be because the Orthodox Church just can’t decide on an answer.

 

[Eucharisted]

Really, do you think we believe that we can accept Christ and his Holy, Orthodox, and Catholic Church for another, or are you trying to take the obviously well-meant prayer of someone who obviously is a bit confused and use it to make us look like whackos? No, we don’t believe that; it doesnt work that way.

I don’t think the OP even asked about Catholicism so I don’t know what those links are for.

Yes, there are Orthodox Christians who are ignorant of Catholicism, and equally there are Catholics who are ignorant of Orthodoxy. I was born and raised Roman Catholic and was one for 26 years of my life, and i’m not ignorant of Catholic teachings. A good number of folks on here seem to believe that we are at worst willful schismatics, and at best simply ignorant of Catholic teachings. How could it be anything else that seperates us? If we believe filioque is heretical, it must just be that we misunderstand it, it certainly couldn’t be that we have any real point- and so it goes with many other objections. Blah, blah… check out an Orthodox forum for the best answer to your query.

The Orthodox Church is schismatic

 

[Hesychios]

Some notes I’d like to make: Don’t trust Orthodox sources to know Catholicism. I know that sounds harsh, but… blah blah blah

What the heck is this all about?

Your post is totally irrelevant to the thread.

The title reads:**
Question for Orthodox believers.**

The question reads:
** Does the Orthodox Church teach that there is *salvation outside the Orthodox Church?

***The OP asked nothing else… :hey_bud:

 

[Hesychios]

Hello brother,

Why?

Why can’t you point to a source that would answer the question?

Why must one leave this forum?

First of all, one of the things I really like about you is that you use your intelligence and make some very good observations and strong concise arguments without wasting words. I don’t have to agree with you to respect what you do here.

I suppose I should have said that long before now.

I suggested that the question be posed elsewhere because it was originally posted in the EASTERN CATHOLIC section of Catholic Answers Forums.

That is not the place to ask questions of Orthodox…it is actually policy here to sequester Orthodox discussions in the non-Catholic section. I sincerely feel that people need to take questions about Orthodoxy directed specifically to Orthodox believers outside of CAF. If the OP asked what Latin Catholics (or Eastern Catholics) think of Holy Orthodoxy, then I suppose CAF is the place to be.

I did not suggest a forum because I am not advertising or promoting other forums through this medium and I simply do not want to be accused of poaching. They can all be found through Google.

My answer was sincere and I had no intention to offend.

Then of course, we have people like Eucharisted that are baiting for a fight and look for any excuse to smear the Orthodox. He probably has no idea what a bad impression he makes on the lurkers out there. His attitude will drive people away.

My position is this: If a person wants to learn about Latin Catholicism from Latin Catholics, go to a Roman Catholic forum, any one…I don’t care. CAF is fine for the purpose.

If one wants to learn about Holy Orthodoxy from Orthodox Christians, go to an Orthodox site and ask there.

Pax et Bonum,

 

[Eucharisted]

What the heck is this all about?

Your post is totally irrelevant to the thread.

The title reads:**
Question for Orthodox believers.**

The question reads:
** Does the Orthodox Church teach that there is *salvation outside the Orthodox Church?

***The OP asked nothing else… :hey_bud:

My note was relevant to the article I gave. The writer made some comments about Catholics (“papists” he calls us) that were not true. As a Catholic, I must defend the Catholic Church. Moreover, I have gone on a number of Orthodox websites and forums, and all of them were dead wrong on what the Catholic Church actually believes. Because some Catholics and non-Catholics are not as sure of what the Catholic Church believes, I took it upon myself to give a general warning and a suggestion of some Catholic sources.

I must also note that not one Orthodox has responded to the OP’s question. Not one! You only tell him/her to go to an Orhodox forum. Is it because you honestly don’t know the answer? Just telling someone to go to a forum is suspecious behavior. If you’re Orthodox, give an answer to the question for Orthodox believers. At the very least, use Google to find an answer for the OP.

 

[Eucharisted]

Tradycja,

Here’s something else I found on OrthodoxWiki.

Outside the Church there is no salvation

Saint Cyprian wrote, ‘A man cannot have God as his Father if he does not have the Church as his Mother’. God is salvation, and God’s saving power is mediated to man in His Body, the Church. This stated the other way around by Georges Florovsky: ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church’.

The Church is the unity of those united with the Trinity. The One Church united as the three persons of Trinity are united. If one in the Church makes proper use of this Church, for communion with God, then he will become ‘like’ God, he will acquire the divine likeness; in the words of John Damascene, he will be ‘assimilated to God through virtue.’ To acquire the likeness is to be deified, it is to become a ‘second god,’ a ‘god by grace.’

I find it strange that the Orthodox Church professes it’s united just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are, when it dosen’t even have three Churches.

The Catholic Church, on the other hand, which professes to resemble the Holy Trinity, is three Churches: The Church in Heaven, the Church in Purgatory, and the Church on Earth. So the Church is united just as the Three Persons are united.

Also, is ‘second god’ a quote? Because that is a strange phrase for a Christian to be making. But maybe I just don’t know the context it was written in by a Church Father.

 

[Hesychios]

My note was relevant to the article I gave. The writer made some comments about Catholics (“papists” he calls us) that were not true.

Not relevant to the discussion.

BTW, are you a Papist?

As a Catholic, I must defend the Catholic Church.

You defend by attacking? …when there was no comment whatever criticizing nor attacking your church.

Moreover, I have gone on a number of Orthodox websites and forums, and all of them were dead wrong on what the Catholic Church actually believes.

The OP was not asking about what your church believes.

I must also note that not one Orthodox has responded to the OP’s question. Not one! You only tell him/her to go to an Orthodox forum.

I have addressed this question any number of times in the past.

Supposing the archives are complete I invite any and all persons to read my past postings.

Perhaps if the OP wishes to pursue this question on another site where the moderators are capable and willing to assure that the questions are properly addressed, I will post a response there. (More than likely someone much smarter than I would take care of it long before I would even notice )

Mind you, I am not questioning the integrity of the moderators here (nor the quality of most of the regular participants). What I am stating is that these moderators are Catholic Answers staffers, and cannot be expected to be capable of assuring a fair and accurate response to questions about Holy Orthodoxy.

Their own field of expertise is Latin Catholicism/Eastern Catholicism.

Pax et Bonum

 

[Cluny]

The usually answer will be something like this:

We know with certainty where the Church is.

We cannot say with equal assurance where it is not.

It could be that there are some people who are mystically connected with the Church by ties that God has not seen fit to reveal in this world.

However, to admit this possibility is not to declare it to be absolutely true.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The usually answer will be something like this:

We know with certainty where the Church is.

We cannot say with equal assurance where it is not.

It could be that there are some people who are mystically connected with the Church by ties that God has not seen fit to reveal in this world.

However, to admit this possibility is not to declare it to be absolutely true.

I thought Jesus taught let your Yes mean Yes and your No mean No? Good lawyering tactic though:

 

[Eucharisted]

I wasn’t sure how to word my reply correctly. However, I apologize for the offense it has caused. I now realize it was a poor choice of words and it would have been better to keep my trap shut.

 

[Peter_J]

there are Orthodox Christians who are ignorant of Catholicism, and equally there are Catholics who are ignorant of Orthodoxy.

Well said.

 

[Peter_J]

I suggested that the question be posed elsewhere because it was originally posted in the EASTERN CATHOLIC section of Catholic Answers Forums.

Interesting. Perhaps Tradycja doesn’t know what “Eastern Catholic” means. Although perhaps I shouldn’t speculate, but let Tradycja speak for himself/herself.

P.S. “The Eastern Catholic Churches are autonomous (in Latin, sui iuris) particular Churches in full communion with the Bishop of Rome — the Pope.” (from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Catholic )

 

[Volodymyr]

Those millions of peoples outside Orfthodox church are not deprived of God’s mercy and automatically cut from the Heavenly Kingdom. The Mercy of God, of course, extends beyond earthly boundaries of the church as a canonical organization. This is confirmed in the orthodox teaching Spirit of God “breathes where it wants”. Christ is not prisoner of His Church. He is God of all and Master of all. He enlightens all who come in peace, He wnats that all peoples be saved and come to knowledge of truth. He advances this goal by all Divine power and love.
Orthodox teaching confirms that simple membership in church does not guarantee saving. The church - saivng but man must take part in it’s saving life in his own judgement. This happens when a man participates in Church’s holy life ,life in completness all days of his life.

For first questioner is your name Polish Tradition Traditsija??
Традиция What kind tradition ? I am only curious about such a name.

 

[Peter_J]

Those millions of peoples outside Orfthodox church are not deprived of God’s mercy and automatically cut from the Heavenly Kingdom. The Mercy of God, of course, extends beyond earthly boundaries of the church as a canonical organization. This is confirmed in the orthodox teaching Spirit of God “breathes where it wants”. Christ is not prisoner of His Church. He is God of all and Master of all. He enlightens all who come in peace, He wnats that all peoples be saved and come to knowledge of truth. He advances this goal by all Divine power and love.
Orthodox teaching confirms that simple membership in church does not guarantee saving. The church - saivng but man must take part in it’s saving life in his own judgement. This happens when a man participates in Church’s holy life ,life in completness all days of his life.

Hmm, sounds a lot like the Catholic teaching.

 

[Hesychios]

Hmm, sounds a lot like the Catholic teaching.

No matter how you slice and dice it, we are not necessarily so far apart.

I tend to forget that myself at times.* I will give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them; I will remove the stony heart from their bodies, and replace it with a natural heart,so that they will live according to my statutes, and observe and carry out my ordinances; thus they shall be my people and I will be their God.**

But as for those whose hearts are devoted to their detestable abominations, I will bring down their conduct upon their heads, says the Lord GOD.*Ezekial 11:19-21 NAB