Question for our non-Catholic Friends please

[Annie39]

I am a member of a confessional LCMS Lutheran church. We are encouraged (but not required) to make use of private confession and absolution, and it is always done before confirmation.

From Luther’s Small Catechism:

What is Confession?
Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.

On Holy Communion:
What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?
That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, **that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us **through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.

I should have read the small Catechism when I was Lutheran I would have a boatload of questions for the Pastor. As it is I hope someone starts a thread where I can ask a boatload of questions of a knowledgeable Lutheran.

Annie

 

[SteveVH]

Well, there are not enough books on earth to cover all that Christ did, can there be enough posts to hold what such and an imitation and aspiration be like?

You got that right!

 

[meltzerboy]

This sounds familiar doesn’t it?

The adherents of every religion say “That is it! It is finished”

Is it possible for us to cling onto the eternal truths and accept, rather than cling onto the “kingdom of names” and reject?

Can we look beyond the name of Moses, or the name of Jesus and find what makes us one?

.

Of course we can. Most religions share common moral values. However, for many, G-d is in the details. One of the main reasons for this, apart from sincere conviction and faith, is the human drive to possess the truth, which most humans strive for, even psychologists. Another important reason is the belief that if one’s own religion does not contain the only absolute truth (insofar as G-d gives us the ability to perceive it), then why practice any particular religion? And a third, interrelated reason is that moral relativism is seen as one of the dire consequences of too much doubting and skepticism, and moral relativism is thought to be synonymous to secularism and atheism. I suppose a fourth reason for rejecting other religions as only half-truths or downright false is the fear of being punished for the sin of apostasy.

 

[JonNC]

=Annie39;11653145]Well Jon, I did some research regarding the information above. I called an LCMS Pastor near where I live and I also called the Pastor of the Lutheran Church where I was a member for most of my Lutheran days. I got two different replies. The Pastor of the Lutheran Church near me agreed with you. He quoted the bible regarding whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven whose sins you shall retain they are retained. I asked him if he had ever retained a sin. He said yes when a person confessed to him that he would not stop an adulterous affair. He said that the “sin still clinged to him” (I believe that I have quoted him verbatim) I began to explain what I learned in the Lutheran Church. As I understood it, a believer cannot lose his salvation for any reason except for apostasy. He agreed to this but when I questioned him further I asked if the person who refused to end his adulterous affair had put his salvation in jeopardy he said yes. I asked him how he reconciles the teaching of the Lutheran Church regarding the fact that only through apostasy can one lose salvation. He said that a man who refuses to repent is demonstrating apostasy.

What sticks out here, Annie, is the part about losing one’s salvation. A believer can loose his/her salvation. Scripture tells us so, as does the Lutheran Confessions:
Augsburg Confession:

Article XII: Of Repentance.

1] Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted 2] and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these 3] two parts: One is contrition, that is, 4] terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of 5] the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven, comforts 6] the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance.

7] They condemn the Anabaptists, who deny that those once justified can lose the Holy Ghost. Also those who contend that some may attain to such 8] perfection in this life that they cannot sin.

Notice this is under repentence.

And in the Epitome of the Formula of Concord, under the article concerning good works:

1. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

Intentional perseverance in sin, such as failing the call of Christ to good works for our fellow man, can cause a loss of faith. Now, I don’t know if this qualifies as apostasy, but if we are in fact justified by faith, and by our actions choose to turn our back on grace, we can indeed lose our salvation.

The pastor of the Lutheran Church that I attended disagreed with the other pastor. He reiterated the teaching that I was taught. In the liturgy that I attended the pastor announced that we were forgiven he did not use the phrase that he forgives or absolves.
He did say that they have private confessions but he described what happened in those confessions as counseling sessions where he announced that the person’s sins had been forgiven that he did not give absolution.

Then that pastor is disagreeing with the Lutheran Confessions and Lutheran doctrine, and honestly needs to be redirected by his circuit counselor or district president. He has no right to retain Absolution because he thinks it is a “counseling session”.

Either way I wonder how this can be if Luther taught that our sins were covered over rather than being removed

They are forgiven.

At the time that I left the LCMS and rejoined the Catholic Church there had just been a debate between John Warwick Montgomery and a Catholic Apologist whose name I don’t recall. In the debate Mr. Montgomery’s explanation regarding salvation coincided with that which I learned when attending the Lutheran Church.

I’m not familiar with the debate.

One other thing, I did not receive Confirmation instruction. I was just received into the Lutheran Church at a public service where I and several others made a profession of faith.

Another mistake by that pastor, and you can see the damage it did. You should have been well instructed (though it sounds like he would have failed in that regard) in Lutheran doctrine, using the Small Catechism, the Augsburg Confession, and its Apology.

Jon

 

[Annie39]

What sticks out here, Annie, is the part about losing one’s salvation. A believer can loose his/her salvation. Scripture tells us so, as does the Lutheran Confessions:
Augsburg Confession:

Notice this is under repentence.

And in the Epitome of the Formula of Concord, under the article concerning good works:

Intentional perseverance in sin, such as failing the call of Christ to good works for our fellow man, can cause a loss of faith. Now, I don’t know if this qualifies as apostasy, but if we are in fact justified by faith, and by our actions choose to turn our back on grace, we can indeed lose our salvation.

Then that pastor is disagreeing with the Lutheran Confessions and Lutheran doctrine, and honestly needs to be redirected by his circuit counselor or district president. He has no right to retain Absolution because he thinks it is a “counseling session”.

They are forgiven.

I’m not familiar with the debate.

Another mistake by that pastor, and you can see the damage it did. You should have been well instructed (though it sounds like he would have failed in that regard) in Lutheran doctrine, using the Small Catechism, the Augsburg Confession, and its Apology.

Jon

Would you tell me how a penitent begins his confession. We begin “bless me father for I have sinned”

I tried to call a friend whose father was a Lutheran pastor to ask her about this she wasn’t home. What do you tell protestants who say only God can forgive sins. Like I said before the pastor of the Lutheran Church that I attended only announced that we had been forgiven, he did not say that he absolves or forgives sin.

 

[Servant19]

Rather simple:

To see Christ in everything.

Excellent

Then here we have unity.

How about we create a system to “raise” individuals to " see Christ in everything" from a young age?

Is that a Christly thing to do?

.

 

[Vouthon]

Excellent

Then here we have unity.

How about we create a system to “raise” individuals to " see Christ in everything" from a young age?

Is that a Christly thing to do?

.

I think you might have been beaten to the punch on that one

“…I want to accustom all the inhabitants, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and nonbelievers, to look on me as their brother, the universal brother. Already they’re calling this house “the fraternity” (khaoua in Arabic) — about which I’m delighted — and realizing that the poor have a brother here — not only the poor, though: all men…Above all, always see Jesus in every person, and consequently treat each one not only as an equal and as a brother or sister, but also with great humility, respect and selfless generosity…”

***- Blessed Charles de Foucauld (1858- 1916), Catholic mystic & martyr ***

He was a convert to Catholicism from atheism.

It is Catholic doctrine, derived from the ECFs (Early Church Fathers) that Jesus as the Logos of God (the Reason of God, the Word) is present within the conscience of every human person and that the Holy Spirit is universally at work outside the confines of the church:

"…A number of Church Fathers take up the sapiential tradition reflected in the New Testament. In particular, writers of the second century and the first part of the third century such as Justin, Iranaeus and Clement of Alexandria, either explicitly or in an equivalent way, speak about the “seeds” sown by the Word of God in the nations(10). Thus it can be said that for them, prior to and outside the Christian dispensation, God has already, in an incomplete way, manifested himself. This manifestation of the Logos is an adumbration of the full revelation in Jesus Christ to which it points…

It was to this early Christian vision of history that the Second Vatican Council made reference. After the Council, the Church’s Magisterium, especially that of Pope John Paul II, has proceeded further in the same direction. First the Pope gives explicit recognition to the operative presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the members of other religious traditions, as when in Redemptor Hominis he speaks of their “firm belief” as being “an effect of the Spirit of truth operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body” (No. 6). In Dominum et Vivificantem, he takes a further step, affirming the universal action of the Holy Spirit in the world before the Christian dispensation, to which it was ordained, and referring to the universal action of the same Spirit today, even outside the visible body of the Church (cf. No. 53)…

Finally, there needs to be mentioned the active presence of the Holy Spirit in the religious life of the members of the other religious traditions. From all this the Pope concludes to a “mystery of unity” which was manifested clearly at Assisi, "in spite of the differences between religious professions…

A just appraisal of other religious traditions normally presupposes close contact with them. This implies, besides theoretical knowledge, practical experience of interreligious dialogue with the followers of these traditions…These traditions are to be approached with great sensitivity, on account of the spiritual and human values enshrined in them. They command our respect because over the centuries they have borne witness to the efforts to find answers “to those profound mysteries of the human condition” (NA 1) and have given expression to the religious experience and they continue to do so today…Making its own the vision and the terminology of some early Church Fathers, Nostra Aetate speaks of the presence in these traditions of “a ray of that Truth which enlightens all” (NA 2). Ad Gentes recognizes the presence of “seeds of the word”, and points to “the riches which a generous God has distributed among the nations” (AG 11). Again, Lumen Gentium refers to the good which is “found sown” not only “in minds and hearts”, but also “in the rites and customs of peoples” (LG 17)…the Council has openly acknowledged the presence of positive values not only in the religious life of individual believers of other religious traditions, but also in the religious traditions to which they belong. It attributed these values to the active presence of God through his Word, pointing also to the universal action of the Spirit: “Without doubt,” Ad Gentes affirms, “the Holy Spirit was at work in the world before Christ was glorified” (No. 4)…"

From “Dialogue and Proclamation” a 1991 Vatican document

:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_19051991_dialogue-and-proclamatio_en.html

Vatican II taught this explicitly. It has been reiterated by numerous popes and Vatican documents that are available for interfaith initiatives in Catholic colleges and institutions all over the globe.

Is that not a “system” of sorts?

 

[Vouthon]

And again, Blessed John Paul II said in a book published in 1994:

"…Q: But if God who is in heaven-and who saved and continues to save the world-is One and only One and is He who has revealed Himself in Jesus Christ, why has He allowed so many religions to exist?

Why did He make the search for the truth so arduous, in the midst of a forest of rituals, of beliefs, of revelations, of faiths which have always thrived-and still do today-throughout the world?

Pope John Paul II: You speak of many religions. Instead I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions.

The Council defined the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions in a specific document that begins with the words “Nostra aetate” (“In our time”). It is a concise and yet very rich document that authentically hands on the Tradition, faithful to the thought of the earliest Fathers of the Church.

From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions, thereby demonstrating the unity of humankind with regard to the eternal and ultimate destiny of man. The Council document speaks of this unity and links it with the current trend to bring humanity closer together through the resources available to our civilization. The Church sees the promotion of this unity as one of its duties: “There is only one community and it consists of all peoples. They have only one origin, since God inhabited the entire earth with the whole human race. And they have one ultimate destiny, God, whose providence, goodness, and plan for salvation extend to all. . . . Men turn to various religions to solve mysteries of the human condition, which today, as in earlier times, burden people’s hearts: the nature of man; the meaning and purpose of life; good and evil; the origin and purpose of suffering; the way to true happiness; death…and finally, the ultimate ineffable mystery which is the origin and destiny of our existence. From ancient times up to today all the various peoples have shared and continue to share an awareness of that enigmatic power that is present throughout the course of things and throughout the events of human life, and, in which, at times, even the Supreme Divinity or the Father is recognizable. This awareness and recognition imbue life with an intimate religious sense. Religions that are tied up with cultural progress strive to solve these issues with more refined concepts and a more precise language” (Nostra Aetate 1-2).

…We read: “In Hinduism men explore the divine mystery and express it through an endless bounty of myths and through penetrating philosophical insight. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition, either by way of the ascetic life, profound meditation, or by taking refuge in God with love and trust. The various schools of Buddhism recognize the radical inadequacy of this malleable world and teach a way by which men, with devout and trusting hearts, can become capable either of reaching a state of perfect liberation, or of attaining, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination” (Nostra Aetate 2).

(Continued)

 

[Vouthon]

Further along, the Council remarks that "The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. The Church has a high regard for their conduct and way of life, for those precepts and doctrines which, although differing on many points from that which the Church believes and propounds, often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men…

The words of the Council recall the conviction, long rooted in the Tradition, of the existence of the so-called semina Verbi (seeds of the Word), present in all religions. In the light of this conviction, the Church seeks to identify the semina Verbi present in the great traditions of the Far East, in order to trace a common path against the backdrop of the needs of the contemporary world. We can affirm that here the position of the Council is inspired by a truly universal concern…

In another passage the Council says that the Holy Spirit works effectively even outside the visible structure of the Church (cf. Lumen Gentium 13), making use of these very semina Verbi, that constitute a kind of common soteriological root present in all religions.

I have been convinced of this on numerous occasions, both while visiting the countries of the Far East and while meeting representatives of those religions, especially during the historic meeting at Assisi, where we found ourselves gathered together praying for peace.

Thus, instead of marveling at the fact that Providence allows such a great variety of religions, we should be amazed at the number of common elements found within them.

At this point it would be helpful to recall all the primitive religions, the animistic religions which stress ancestor worship. It seems that those who practice them are particularly close to Christianity…

As the Council also noted, these last religions possess the characteristics of a system. They are systems of worship and also ethical systems, with a strong emphasis on good and evil. Certainly among these belong Chinese Confucianism and Taoism: Tao means eternal truth-something similar to the “Word”-which is reflected in the action of man by means of truth and moral good. The religions of the Far East have contributed greatly to the history of morality and culture, forming a national identity in the Chinese, Indians, Japanese, and Tibetans, and also in the peoples of Southeast Asia and the archipelagoes of the Pacific Ocean.

Some of these peoples come from age-old cultures. The indigenous peoples of Australia boast a history tens of thousands of years old, and their ethnic and religious tradition is older than that of Abraham and Moses.

Christ came into the world for all these peoples. He redeemed them all and has His own ways of reaching each of them in the present eschatological phase of salvation history…

Truth, in fact, cannot be confined. Truth is for one and for all. And if this truth comes about through love (cf. Eph 3:15), then it becomes even more universal…"

***-Blessed Pope John Paul II (1994), Crossing the Threshold of Hope ***

 

[steido01]

Would you tell me how a penitent begins his confession. We begin “bless me father for I have sinned”

I tried to call a friend whose father was a Lutheran pastor to ask her about this she wasn’t home. What do you tell protestants who say only God can forgive sins. Like I said before the pastor of the Lutheran Church that I attended only announced that we had been forgiven, he did not say that he absolves or forgives sin.

Here’s one way of doing so: see page 292.

 

[PJM]

=steido01;11656634]Here’s one way of doing so: see page 292.

Originally Posted by Annie39 View Post
Would you tell me how a penitent begins his confession. We begin “bless me father for I have sinned”

I tried to call a friend whose father was a Lutheran pastor to ask her about this she wasn’t home. What do you tell protestants who say only God can forgive sins. Like I said before the pastor of the Lutheran Church that I attended only announced that we had been forgiven, he did not say that he absolves or forgives sin.

No problem:shrug: It IS GOD who forgives sins; BUT by doing it His way.

I ask these folks to read with me:

Mt. 10:1-8 [heres verse 1-2 & 8 “And having called his twelve disciples together[COLOR=“red”], he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities.** And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter ** & Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give”

Mt. 16:18-19 “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon[YOU PETER] this rock I will build my church[SINGULAR] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”

Then John 17: 18 "Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [THIS MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS WITH CHRIST OWN POWER AND AUTHORITYH]

& John 20:21 "[SAME MESSAGE] "He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost"

Then verse 23: “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

**I then ask two questions: Are we to tell God HOW he is to forgive our sins:shrug:

Are you aware that God used priest in the OT to forgive sins? So why don’t you complain about tha**t?

Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

It may or may not have immediate effect; but will cause pause for reflection:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
patrick

 

[Annie39]

Here’s one way of doing so: see page 292.

Thanks Don. I read the part of the article that you recommeded. I have some questions about this but it is off topic. I have started another thread called Questions for Lutherans in hopes that you and others will reply to.

Annie

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I think you might have been beaten to the punch on that one
---- trimmed for space’s sake

Those were beautiful quotes! Thank you.

 

[onlyachristian]

Dear friend in Christ,

We appreciate your participation here on CAF

Would you share with is WHAT DOES YOUR CHURCH TEACH ABOUT SIN?

i have “faith” that the following will clarify-- the christian perspective–

the application of the particular bondage and remedy of the roman catholic system of forgiveness-- was put into place by constine-- being a wise emperor – it is a good idea to have all your subjects dependent on the system of the empire-as this was when the priest hood was “re-established” before then-- it was a much simpler – religion–

1. repent,2. baptised in the holy Spirit,3 repent – again as necessary

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Questions for Roman Catholics about Jesus and forgiveness

by Matt Slick

Catholics have the confessional, priests, penance, the sacraments, the saints, and Mary, that all in one way or another effect the forgiveness of sins. In the Confessional, the Catholic confesses sins to a priest who then absolves the person and prescribes penance - a necessary means of forgiveness (CCC 980) “by which sins committed after baptism are forgiven,” (The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 1, 1969, p. 141). Sacraments are a means of grace (needed to resist and be forgiven of sins). Catholics can pray to the saints, and especially Mary, to ask for their intercession. In fact, it is Mary who “will deliver our souls from death” (CCC 966), brings gifts of eternal salvation (CCC 969), and is second only to Jesus (Vatican Council II, p. 421). So the Catholic is thoroughly entwined in the ecclesiastical process of salvation and the forgiveness of sins found in the Roman Catholic Church; but what about Jesus?
About Jesus

Jesus, who is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9) has all authority in heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18; Eph. 1:20-21). Jesus is prayed to (Acts 7:55-60; 1 Cor. 1:2 with Psalm 116:4). He said to ask him (pray) and he would do what you ask (John 14:14) – according to God’s will, that is (1 John 5:14). So, since Jesus is greater than Mary, greater than the Saints, the creator of the universe (John 1:3; Col. 1:16-17), the Lord who forgives sins (Matt. 9:2; Luke 5:20), I have a question. Can you pray and ask Jesus to forgive you of all your sins? If not, why not? Are you refusing to trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of all your sins? If so, how is Jesus not sufficient to forgive you of all your sins?
Questions for Roman Catholics

Can Jesus forgive you for all of your sins?
If Jesus is God and forgives sins, then can you pray and ask Jesus to forgive you for all of your sins and put all your trust and hope in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins?
If you do, would you then be forgiven of all your sins?
If you do ask Jesus to forgive you for all of your sins, do you need to confess your sins to a priest?
If you are not able to ask Jesus to forgive you for all of your sins, then why do you not trust in the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice to save you from all your sins?

No false religion trusts in Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins. No false religious people pray to Jesus and trust him to forgive them of their sins. None! True Christians can trust in Christ - as the Bible says. True Christians hear the voice of Christ and follow him (John 10:27-28) and they go to him (Matt. 11:28). They trust Jesus and his complete work on the cross that cleanses us of our sins (1 Pet. 2:24; Col. 2:14). They don’t trust in their works.
God says

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

So, Roman Catholic, can you pray to Jesus and trust him alone and ask him alone to forgive you of your sins? If not…well…then you’re saying that his sacrifice isn’t sufficient, that seeking him alone isn’t enough, and that you must do something else to be forgiven.

“You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed ascrucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” (Gal. 3:1-3).

If you cannot pray to Jesus and ask him to forgive you of all of your sins, then you must be trusting in something else in addition to Jesus and are trying to be perfected in the flesh. You must be trusting, in part, in your own ability to go through ceremonies, ritualistic prayers, ordinances, confessionals, sacraments, so that you can hope to be faithful enough to be saved. You can never rest in Christ when you don’t trust completely in Christ.

“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest," (Matt. 11:28).

 

[PRmerger]

If you cannot pray to Jesus and ask him to forgive you of all of your sins, then you must be trusting in something else in addition to Jesus and are trying to be perfected in the flesh. You must be trusting, in part, in your own ability to go through ceremonies, ritualistic prayers, ordinances, confessionals, sacraments, so that you can hope to be faithful enough to be saved. You can never rest in Christ when you don’t trust completely in Christ.

We do indeed pray to Jesus and ask him to forgive us–we just do it in the way that Jesus set up: through the Sacrament of Confession.

“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest," (Matt. 11:28).

Amen!

And you can thank the Catholic Church, whom you are trusting to discern that the Gospel of Matthew truly is theopneustos, for preserving those words for you and me!

 

[meltzerboy]

We do indeed pray to Jesus and ask him to forgive us–we just do it in the way that Jesus set up: through the Sacrament of Confession.

Amen!

And you can thank the Catholic Church, whom you are trusting to discern that the Gospel of Matthew truly is theopneustos, for preserving those words for you and me!

PR, do you mean that Jesus set it up that way (i.e. the Sacrament of Confession) through the early Church Fathers or through the Apostles? Or did Jesus Himself explicitly speak about the Sacrament of Confession to the Apostles?

 

[PRmerger]

PR, do you mean that Jesus set it up that way (i.e. the Sacrament of Confession) through the early Church Fathers or through the Apostles? Or did Jesus Himself explicitly speak about the Sacrament of Confession to the Apostles?

Jesus Himself set up the Sacrament of Confession.

After the Resurrection he breathes on his disciples and tells them whose sins they forgive they are forgiven, and whose sins they retain they are retained.

 

[JonNC]

Jesus Himself set up the Sacrament of Confession.

After the Resurrection he breathes on his disciples and tells them whose sins they forgive they are forgiven, and whose sins they retain they are retained.

John 20

19On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”



Jon

 

[PRmerger]

John 20

19On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”



Jon

 

[PJM]

=onlyachristian;11660517]

Dear friend in Christ,

We appreciate your participation here on CAF