Question for Parents

[Little_Mary]

If one of my children came to me to say they did not believe in God, I would be upset - no doubt about it. But I would want to know. I hope you don’t decide to keep this from them.

Would you do something? Go to www.biblechristiansociety.com and download or order the CD entitled “Was Hitler Right?” subtitled: "Why Athiests Have No Rights"

It is free. If nothing else, maybe it will give you something to think about.

I know you said that your mind is made up. But please don’t close your mind completely. Keep learning and searching.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I really couldn’t decide to believe in God. I’d be lying to myself.
No, you would be making a choice. To say you can’t decide to believe is to say you have no free will.

The Medicle degree is just a start. Like I said ‘I intend to do as much for other people as I can.’ I really want to do good in this world.

Awesome! I sincerely hope you do great and good things.

---

I would obviously disagree about the lack of evidence for evolution. The biblical version of creation has no evidence.

Neither has “evidence”. Both are theory. One is based in the bible. The other is based on men’s thoeries. Neither can be claimed, from a scientific perspective, as anything more than theories.

Maybe I should have spoken to my parents first. I guess that why I’m talking to you guys now.
Life does have a way of changing peoples opionions. It certainly changed mine. Of course, if I ever convert back, I come here first.
I wouldn’t respond by saying ‘I don’t know’ because thats not true. I do know.
**Alrighty. Then tell your parents that. Say, “For the past several years I’ve had serious doubts about whether I can live and believe the faith you’ve taught me and lived. (Assuming they do live it, right?) I probably should have talked to you first years ago, but I didn’t. At this point, I not longer have any desire to share in your faith. It isn’t because of anything you or anyone else has done or not done. I simply can’t accept the church teachings and no longer want to fake it in the pew.” **

Thanks for the communion advice. Of course its easier to say you don’t have to say anything then it is to put that in practise. But even if I said nothing. What will they assume? What would you assume?
Absolutly nothing. Really. There’s many reasons people don’t accept the eucharist at times.

---

I wouldn’t expect my preist to shun me. I do think he’d be dissapointed. He wouldn’t say that, but I know him as a person. Its not an issue of me not trusting him or anything like that. And yes, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. But doesn’t the church lay claim to every member of the human race in varying degrees? Obviously I don’t believe in a supernatural link between me and the church.
My point was not to just go to confession for the sake of spiritual benefit, which you agree may not be available to you. Confession is also a chance to receive wise counsel on how to proceed. There will be many people who turn from you over this. That is simply life when one makes a choice there are consequences. However, I think it kinder to speak to this priest rather than cut him short without reason. Priests are often friends with people from all walks of life. Surely you still need a wise friend, even if he’s a priest?

---

I don’t think premarital sex or homosexuality is wrong.

**See now. That would be more likely to cause a rift in my home than a lack of faith. It is one thing to doubt. It is another to actively be willing to do wrong or to consent to the wrong of others. **

I would be welcome to talk. I’d be happy to have rational conversations with my parents. I fully respect their beliefs.

There’s that word “respect” again. Do you mean respect or accept? It’s not the same. I could respect and love my kids no matter what, but there are many things in life I will not allow in my home. For example, I would not welcome their homosexual partner in my house. To me it would be disrespectful of them to ask that of me.

 

[KCT]

Complexity of the human body: Evolution.

I’ve never understood how something abstract like intelligence can evolve. (I don’t mean knowlege, because we can learn new facts.) —KCT

 

[PoliSciProf]

I knew someone who was in a similar situation about doubting the faith. This person went to a priest and said she was going to leave the church, expecting her thinking to be confirmed by his response. Instead, he said if this is how you must find and know God, go right ahead and do so and he would pray for her. She stayed in the Church. Doubts are normal. Most people have them (actually I think all people do as they mature spiritually). And, don’t forget that 18 is not exactly the age of deep wisdom. This situation can lead to estrangement from your parents. Don’t less this happen. Speak to them if you must with charity and love. If you must leave, keep in touch with CA.

 

[ktog29]

Would you do something? Go to www.biblechristiansociety.com and download or order the CD entitled “Was Hitler Right?” subtitled: “Why Athiests Have No Rights”

I agree with the PP who posted the above. Check it out and let us know what you think. I’ve listened to other John Martignoni talks but not this one. I’d be fun to discuss this one…I’ll have to listen to it this week. I’d be interested in your thoughts.

 

[MaryD7]

Jake, you sound like a very thoughtful, intelligent person. You seem to try to think things out and chew things over until you come up with an answer that satisfies you. Don’t ever lose the ability to do that. Life is an ever changing story and the conclusions you come to at this point in your life will change as you grow older. The ability to chew things over and think things out will help you so much throughout your life … not just with religious/philosophical things but with your career, relationships, etc. If you lose the ability to think, ponder, and wonder you lose the ability to grow.

To answer you original question … I have an 18 year old son who is going through much what you seem to be going through. He has been asking me many questions (and some of them are doozies!) but he is searching and some of his conclusions are not matching mine. But do you know what? That’s okay because at least he is thinking about it.

I will admit that I am afraid but it is because I don’t want him to lose what I consider the greatest gift here on earth. I don’t want him to wander away from his spirituality and God. I don’t want him to fall into something that I know isn’t a good idea (been there, done that). I pray for him everyday but I know that I have to let him go and make up his own mind. I don’t want him to believe in God because I said so … I want him to believe in God with his own heart and his own soul.

Believe me, I wish he wasn’t going through this but I’m sure that this is probably only one of the first things that I will not agree with him on as he continues into adulthood. I will always love him and I will always pray for him.

Just don’t close yourself off to the possibility that God is real. When you close yourself off to possibilities then you close yourself off to possible answers.

 

[JDeL]

I really couldn’t decide to believe in God. I’d be lying to myself.
The Medicle degree is just a start. Like I said ‘I intend to do as much for other people as I can.’ I really want to do good in this world.
I would obviously disagree about the lack of evidence for evolution. The biblical version of creation has no evidence.
Maybe I should have spoken to my parents first. I guess that why I’m talking to you guys now.
Life does have a way of changing peoples opionions. It certainly changed mine. Of course, if I ever convert back, I come here first.
I wouldn’t respond by saying ‘I don’t know’ because thats not true. I do know.

Thanks for the communion advice. Of course its easier to say you don’t have to say anything then it is to put that in practise. But even if I said nothing. What will they assume? What would you assume?

I wouldn’t expect my preist to shun me. I do think he’d be dissapointed. He wouldn’t say that, but I know him as a person. Its not an issue of me not trusting him or anything like that. And yes, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. But doesn’t the church lay claim to every member of the human race in varying degrees? Obviously I don’t believe in a supernatural link between me and the church.

I don’t think premarital sex or homosexuality is wrong. I had difficulty accepting either of those were wrong before I lost my faith. I have my reasons for this. I’ve always thought Natural Law was a bit of a cop out. Whole new conversation opeinging up here…

I would be welcome to talk. I’d be happy to have rational conversations with my parents. I fully respect their beliefs.

Hi Jake,

My brother went through a similar time in his life where he claimed atheism as his religion of choice. The anxiety and pain that this caused my parents was enormous, but what was more enormous was the fact that he engaged in evil activities at the same time, endangering his soul. This is what truly hurt my parents and myself, and what will truly hurt your family. By the grace of God, my brother has returned to Christianity. My prayer is that you follow the same path.

I know that you have said that you do not believe in organized religion or that you do not have a religion. I disagree, everyone has a religion. Your religion, or what you worship, is your own thought. As much as you want to deny it, you have a intellect and a free will to say yes to the Faith or not. If you say no, God is swept out and something will fill the spiritual void, period. What fills this spiritual void is what your parents worry about, and what I will pray for tonight, that the Holy Spirit returns to that spiritual void.

Further, you state that you cannot lie to yourself, but is that not what you are doing when you keep this from your parents and receive the Eucharist in the meantime?

From your atheistic perspective, are there any moral absolutes? For you, loving your parents seems to be one. Respcting others seems to be another. Showing compassion seems to be another. Using the intellect for the good of others seems to be another. All of these involve the virtue of charity, central to the Christian life. Thus, you are not very far removed from your Christian moral roots.

Lastly, I leave with a quote of Chesterton that to me makes an atheist think twice about what he is leaving behind, “It is absurd to complain that it is unthinkable for an admittedly unthinkable God to make everything out of nothing, and then pretend that it is more thinkable that nothing should turn itself into everything”

I will keep you in my prayers and through the Immaculate Heart of Mary may Jesus mend your unbelief.

In Christ,
JD

 

[Jake_Ellison]

Does one “practice” atheism? I mean do you decide to become atheist and then that’s it?

No I don’t really practise atheism. I just don’t believe in God. And I don’t think beliefs are as simple as desicions.

 

[Nino]

I’m 18 years old and I’ve been bought up as a Catholic for the whole of my life. I still go to mass, but I am actually an atheist. Almost all of my friends know this, except most of my friends through church. None of my family know this except for my brother.

As parents (or more spesidically Catholic parents) how would you feel/react if one of your children told you they didn’t believe in God?

 

[Jake_Ellison]

If one of my children came to me to say they did not believe in God, I would be upset - no doubt about it. But I would want to know. I hope you don’t decide to keep this from them.

Would you do something? Go to www.biblechristiansociety.com and download or order the CD entitled “Was Hitler Right?” subtitled: "Why Athiests Have No Rights"

It is free. If nothing else, maybe it will give you something to think about.

I know you said that your mind is made up. But please don’t close your mind completely. Keep learning and searching.

I’ll have a look at the website.

 

[Nino]

Nino:
I would not be surprised…Christianity is constantly under attack by the rulling class…secular humanists to the core! It takes guts to be a Christians …and to be Catholic is even harder!!!.As a parent of seven grown children…teachers,lawyers etc I have not found this to be a problems for my wife and I always explained what we did ,when we did it and why…all in the name of Jesus! To be PC today is a piece of cake…just allow all kinds of sin (oops,bad word) just dont allow prayer in public schools, in the military or even on the side walk…allow all kinds of perversion to be shown on teevee and in the classrooms but no fair reporting on St.Francis or PiusX11 etc etc…lampoon Christmas and Easter but hug a tree instead as being more noble and intellignent…brainwashing kids is easy…do your own thing (as dictated by the left wing establishment) and you will somehow,be shown as brave and sensitive…if some one says your outdated for jpaganism is a dead end…call them ‘rude’ and whimper…all the best …Nino

 

[Jake_Ellison]

Originally Posted by Jake Ellison
I really couldn’t decide to believe in God. I’d be lying to myself.

No, you would be making a choice. To say you can’t decide to believe is to say you have no free will.

The Medicle degree is just a start. Like I said ‘I intend to do as much for other people as I can.’ I really want to do good in this world.

Awesome! I sincerely hope you do great and good things.

I would obviously disagree about the lack of evidence for evolution. The biblical version of creation has no evidence.

Neither has “evidence”. Both are theory. One is based in the bible. The other is based on men’s thoeries. Neither can be claimed, from a scientific perspective, as anything more than theories.

Maybe I should have spoken to my parents first. I guess that why I’m talking to you guys now.
Life does have a way of changing peoples opionions. It certainly changed mine. Of course, if I ever convert back, I come here first.
I wouldn’t respond by saying ‘I don’t know’ because thats not true. I do know.

Alrighty. Then tell your parents that. Say, “For the past several years I’ve had serious doubts about whether I can live and believe the faith you’ve taught me and lived. (Assuming they do live it, right?) I probably should have talked to you first years ago, but I didn’t. At this point, I not longer have any desire to share in your faith. It isn’t because of anything you or anyone else has done or not done. I simply can’t accept the church teachings and no longer want to fake it in the pew.”

Thanks for the communion advice. Of course its easier to say you don’t have to say anything then it is to put that in practise. But even if I said nothing. What will they assume? What would you assume?
Absolutly nothing. Really. There’s many reasons people don’t accept the eucharist at times.

I wouldn’t expect my preist to shun me. I do think he’d be dissapointed. He wouldn’t say that, but I know him as a person. Its not an issue of me not trusting him or anything like that. And yes, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. But doesn’t the church lay claim to every member of the human race in varying degrees? Obviously I don’t believe in a supernatural link between me and the church.
My point was not to just go to confession for the sake of spiritual benefit, which you agree may not be available to you. Confession is also a chance to receive wise counsel on how to proceed. There will be many people who turn from you over this. That is simply life when one makes a choice there are consequences. However, I think it kinder to speak to this priest rather than cut him short without reason. Priests are often friends with people from all walks of life. Surely you still need a wise friend, even if he’s a priest?

I don’t think premarital sex or homosexuality is wrong.

See now. That would be more likely to cause a rift in my home than a lack of faith. It is one thing to doubt. It is another to actively be willing to do wrong or to consent to the wrong of others.

I would be welcome to talk. I’d be happy to have rational conversations with my parents. I fully respect their beliefs.

There’s that word “respect” again. Do you mean respect or accept? It’s not the same. I could respect and love my kids no matter what, but there are many things in life I will not allow in my home. For example, I would not welcome their homosexual partner in my house. To me it would be disrespectful of them to ask that of me.

Could you turn around right now and completly, in your heart, not believe in God? I don’t think you could.

As for theories, I’m not sure if you exactly understand what a scientific theory is. Evolution is based in evidence. It wasn’t just plucked out of midair. Remember, the theory of gravity, is only a theory. But its just a little harder to deny…

I accept that you would assume nothing if someone stopped taking communion, but I don’t think my parents would. I think its great that you wouldn’t assume anything, but then, everyone is different.

Respect and acceptance are different things. I don’t think any worse of anyone for believeing different things. I think I do respect them and accept they have their own, different beliefs.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

I’ve never understood how something abstract like intelligence can evolve. (I don’t mean knowlege, because we can learn new facts.) —KCT

There are plenty of things a wouldn’t claim to understand. I also wouldn’t claim they are false just becuase I don’t understand them. My knowleage of the world is not the total knowleage in the world, so I know some true things will exist that I don’t understand.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

I knew someone who was in a similar situation about doubting the faith. This person went to a priest and said she was going to leave the church, expecting her thinking to be confirmed by his response. Instead, he said if this is how you must find and know God, go right ahead and do so and he would pray for her. She stayed in the Church. Doubts are normal. Most people have them (actually I think all people do as they mature spiritually). And, don’t forget that 18 is not exactly the age of deep wisdom. This situation can lead to estrangement from your parents. Don’t less this happen. Speak to them if you must with charity and love. If you must leave, keep in touch with CA.

18 may not be the age of deep wisdom. But plenty of 18 year olds do believe in God. So being 18 isn’t synominous with being wrong from both of our perspectives. Like I said before. I’ll come back in 10 years and tell you what I think then.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

Jake, you sound like a very thoughtful, intelligent person. You seem to try to think things out and chew things over until you come up with an answer that satisfies you. Don’t ever lose the ability to do that. Life is an ever changing story and the conclusions you come to at this point in your life will change as you grow older. The ability to chew things over and think things out will help you so much throughout your life … not just with religious/philosophical things but with your career, relationships, etc. If you lose the ability to think, ponder, and wonder you lose the ability to grow.

To answer you original question … I have an 18 year old son who is going through much what you seem to be going through. He has been asking me many questions (and some of them are doozies!) but he is searching and some of his conclusions are not matching mine. But do you know what? That’s okay because at least he is thinking about it.

I will admit that I am afraid but it is because I don’t want him to lose what I consider the greatest gift here on earth. I don’t want him to wander away from his spirituality and God. I don’t want him to fall into something that I know isn’t a good idea (been there, done that). I pray for him everyday but I know that I have to let him go and make up his own mind. I don’t want him to believe in God because I said so … I want him to believe in God with his own heart and his own soul.

Believe me, I wish he wasn’t going through this but I’m sure that this is probably only one of the first things that I will not agree with him on as he continues into adulthood. I will always love him and I will always pray for him.

Just don’t close yourself off to the possibility that God is real. When you close yourself off to possibilities then you close yourself off to possible answers.

Thankyou for this post. I never would want to close my mind off to other possiblitities. I never have done, and that might be partly why I’m an athiest now. But yeah, I won’t stop thinking. It’s just that right now, I don’t see any evidence for religion being true, and I see plenty of reasons why religion should exist. And I know that religions can develop and not be true. Just as well as you know this when you look at any anchent pagan religion, or modern non-christian religion.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

I know that you have said that you do not believe in organized religion or that you do not have a religion. I disagree, everyone has a religion. Your religion, or what you worship, is your own thought. As much as you want to deny it, you have a intellect and a free will to say yes to the Faith or not. If you say no, God is swept out and something will fill the spiritual void, period. What fills this spiritual void is what your parents worry about, and what I will pray for tonight, that the Holy Spirit returns to that spiritual void.

Further, you state that you cannot lie to yourself, but is that not what you are doing when you keep this from your parents and receive the Eucharist in the meantime?

From your atheistic perspective, are there any moral absolutes? For you, loving your parents seems to be one. Respcting others seems to be another. Showing compassion seems to be another. Using the intellect for the good of others seems to be another. All of these involve the virtue of charity, central to the Christian life. Thus, you are not very far removed from your Christian moral roots.

Lastly, I leave with a quote of Chesterton that to me makes an atheist think twice about what he is leaving behind, “It is absurd to complain that it is unthinkable for an admittedly unthinkable God to make everything out of nothing, and then pretend that it is more thinkable that nothing should turn itself into everything”

I will keep you in my prayers and through the Immaculate Heart of Mary may Jesus mend your unbelief.

In Christ,
JD

I sitll don’t believe we can help what we believe. Our beliefs can develop and change, but I don’t expect you could turn around tommorow and convert, seriously, to Islam.

I’m not lying to myself anymore. Prehaps I’m lying to others, or consealing particular truths, or being economical with the truth, or whatever you want to call it. I know its not right or a particularly good position to be in, but thats really why I started this thread in the first place. I’m definatly not lying to myself though.

I don’t believe in moral absolutes. I believe that fundamentally there is no right or wrong, not set moral code, or ‘Natural Law.’ I suppose cultural relitivism would be the closest thing to what I believe. I think my culture and religious upbringing has had a major impact in my morality. Yes I am ‘not very far removed from [my] Christian moral roots,’ but I wouldn’t want this to be any different. I guess thats part of the way I’m morally wired.

As for your quote. At Chesterton agree’s that God is ‘unthinkable.’ But I don’t pretend that it is more thinkable for everything to come from nothing. I don’t agree that this happened at all. But if we assume for the sake of argument that I did, your still looking at a choise between to unthinkable things, so what tips it in Gods favour? Anyway, I don’t believe everything came from nothing, so I don’t fit into the second category. Plus I don’t think that second catagory is representative of generally atheist thinking. I doubt that many people think that at all.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

I would not be surprised…Christianity is constantly under attack by the rulling class…secular humanists to the core! It takes guts to be a Christians …and to be Catholic is even harder!!!.As a parent of seven grown children…teachers,lawyers etc I have not found this to be a problems for my wife and I always explained what we did ,when we did it and why…all in the name of Jesus! To be PC today is a piece of cake…just allow all kinds of sin (oops,bad word) just dont allow prayer in public schools, in the military or even on the side walk…allow all kinds of perversion to be shown on teevee and in the classrooms but no fair reporting on St.Francis or PiusX11 etc etc…lampoon Christmas and Easter but hug a tree instead as being more noble and intellignent…brainwashing kids is easy…do your own thing (as dictated by the left wing establishment) and you will somehow,be shown as brave and sensitive…if some one says your outdated for jpaganism is a dead end…call them ‘rude’ and whimper…all the best …Nino

I can see where your coming from in most of this post. Before I answer, can you rephrase ‘if some one says your outdated for jpaganism is a dead end…call them ‘rude’ and whimper.’? I don’t understand that sentance.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

Would you do something? Go to www.biblechristiansociety.com and download or order the CD entitled “Was Hitler Right?” subtitled: “Why Athiests Have No Rights”

I agree with the PP who posted the above. Check it out and let us know what you think. I’ve listened to other John Martignoni talks but not this one. I’d be fun to discuss this one…I’ll have to listen to it this week. I’d be interested in your thoughts.

Can someone give me a hand with this CD? How do I download it? I can see how to buy it, (free plus $3 shipping) but I don’t have a credit or bank card or anything to pay with. Is the downlod easy to manage? My computer is rubbish.

 

[HouseArrest]

No I don’t really practise atheism. I just don’t believe in God. And I don’t think beliefs are as simple as desicions.

I was referring to one of your replies in which you said that you’d made your decision.

As far as not practicing atheism, the danger is that you’d not continue to read, study, find out about God and the existence of Him. From your other replies it looks as though you’ll do that, though, and that is good. I’m going to jump out of this at this time because you have lots of conversations going on here at once and it must be hard to keep up with. Good luck and prayers to you.

 

[MaryD7]

Thankyou for this post. I never would want to close my mind off to other possiblitities. I never have done, and that might be partly why I’m an athiest now. But yeah, I won’t stop thinking. It’s just that right now, I don’t see any evidence for religion being true, and I see plenty of reasons why religion should exist. And I know that religions can develop and not be true. Just as well as you know this when you look at any anchent pagan religion, or modern non-christian religion.

Right NOW you don’t see any evidence for religion being true but that hopefully will change in the future.

Also, you seem to be looking at religion from the “Big Picture” point of view. By that I mean that you are standing back and looking at the world as it is today and and has been throughout history. God has been used as a weapon, an excuse, a divider, and as a dictator. And none of it makes much sense because who is this ‘Being’ people call God? We can’t see Him. He hasn’t come down here lately in a burning bush to talk to anybody. Was He made up by people just to explain the unknown?

But God is more than that. He is part of the spiritual side to our humanity. This is why I don’t believe you can try to understand and believe in God from the “Big Picture” perspective but rather a person must go into his/her own spirituality to consider whether God is real. This is more personal and deep.

This is what I asked my son do to: Develop your spirituality. By this I mean, who are you talking to when there is no other human being in sight? Do you feel as if ‘Someone’ is there and hears you? Or do you feel as if you are just talking to yourself inside of your head? If it is the latter then try it from the perspective that Someone is there who is listening to your thoughts. Be honest and upfront, and most importantly, be able to be quiet to hear answers when they come.

This isn’t an overnight project either. Do it over time, with an open mind, and see what happens.