Question for protestants from a protestant

[Delgadoajj]

(continued from post #257)

You say:
God is immutable (Mal 3:6); that immutability is an attribute; it is His essence. God’s making exemptions/exceptions are His right; His actions are not flippant, petulant, whimsical, or willy-nilly; they are right; they do not indicate a change in His nature, or a change of mind; rather, He had decided (willed) it to be. You see it as His changing His mind; it was not, rather, it was decided in eternity.
I am not saying that; I provided you with a reason from the scripture as to why Enoch was spared: he had a superb witness, and he was pleasing to God (Heb 11:5); the problem is that you don’t like my answer; as to Elijah, we are not told “why;” we are told “that.” And, I said they were spared from death, not judgment; although, every believer is spared from judgment (Jn 5:24).

Thank you for your concern about my theology; you also might want to examine yours. My theology comes from the scripture; yours is taken to the scripture for support. What I mean is, I am assuming that you are belaboring this issue, because if all men sinned, you have no biblical support for the virgin’s sinlessness; it seems to me that it is *your *theology that has *you *contending with me about scripture’s clear testimony; I am quite sure of my own. Keep struggling; frustration is a great teacher.

In Him,
Bill

Hey,

How about starting a new thread about “The Immutability of God?”

What do you think, Bill, RyanL?

Jorge

 

[Delgadoajj]

Delgadoajj:

Hey,

How about starting a new thread about “The Immutability of God?”

What do you think, Bill, RyanL?

Jorge

Or maybe a thread called “Sin in the Bible”, “Did Mary Sin or Not”, or something like that?

Jorge.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

april_hosen:

Also, likeI said before I dont see how Mary interceding is Bibical. I mean it makes a lot of sense but I dont see the Bibical reference.

Please see James 5:16 (KJV)

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Mary is the first Christian and was the mother of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. Intercession is totally Biblical. It is not necessary that Catholics must pray to the Holy Mother, however, I don’t see why one wouldn’t. Mary is our heavenly mother and what’s wrong with speaking to your mother? Without her being the first one to accept Christ into her womb and being the one to trust in Our Lord, none of us would have had the chance to accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Once we are “reborn” at Baptism, we all become children of God and Mary becomes our mother because we are all brothers of Christ and we must honor and respect our mother.

 

[ally]

April,
When my thirtysomething year old daughters were your age they were slowly led away from the Catholic church. The public schools were teaching them to go against everything we taught them morally. The college environment can be a den of iniquity! I am sad to say that neither of my daughters are Catholic today. The reason I am bringing this up is to encourage you to seek the truth.....but pray every day to do God's will. It is amazing that so many God loving non-Catholics are converting to Catholicism because they have prayed for God's guidance. It is equally sad that the Catholics who are leaving Catholicism are usually leaving for selfish reasons. Most "fallen away Catholics" are not praying every day to do God's will. It is not easy to be a Catholic......but I would much rather live a difficult Catholic life and "die" a Catholic than live an easier life. I am willing to give up the beautiful music of the non-Catholic churches (that is my main complaint about Catholicism) and have Christ in the eucharist every day. If I want beautiful music I can always buy a good music system and listen to the MormonTabernacle Choir or the Gospel singers any time I want. As Bishop Sheen would say......"God love you!" and good luck on your journey!

 

[Cairisti]

Christian4life:

The only real doctrinal type issues I have with the church are with praying to saints…I know Catholics aren’t supposed to pray TO saints, but I just don’t feel the need to at all. It is too much of a risk of accidentally commiting idolatry.

The other thing is I’m not sure I buy the Papal infallibility even when it comes to ex-cathedra statements. I think some of the popes have not been so moral at all.

Hi Christian4life!
Well, I was raised a Southern Baptist so can understand your issues. (Not yet Catholic officially - Easter Vigil 2006) As far as "praying " to the saints, I just think of it as asking a friend or family member (and they are family as we are all members of Christ’s family, whether here on earth or in Heaven), to pray for me. The first time I did it, I was worried, not wanting to offend God, but it all worked out just fine. And Christ did say for us to pray for one another - He didn’t specify whether the person was with him in Heaven or on earth. Guess it’s my Prot background, but I do tend to say I “ask” not “pray” to St. So-and-So to pray for this or that. And they do answer. (the song “We are Family” keeps creeping into my head when I think of the communion of saints. )

As far a papal infallability. Well, it doesn’t mean that the Pope’s were morally perfect. And there were some doozies in History. From what I understand PI to mean is that when he speaks on the teachings and morals of the Church (not his own morals), he is infallable as the Holy Spirit keeps him from speaking in error. That’s just my own understanding, I’m sure someone else has a better explination.

 

[CatherineofA]

april_hosen:

Hi Catherine!
I understand you are trying to defend Protestants. But I suggest simmering down there. Its one thing if you trying to make a point to better that persons understanding. But if your intention of making that point is to hurt someone else in any way, thats were we fall in to sin. I’m no example but, choosing your words carefully is a good idea.

I am not trying to defend Protestants. I was making a point that my personal experiences have not shown them to act any more Christ-like than Protestants.

 

[CatherineofA]

John A. McGuckin is an Orthodox priest. However, I have yet to see him state that the Catholic Church is the church of Christ. He makes a career out of early church history.

 

[Eden]

CatherineofA:

John A. McGuckin is an Orthodox priest. However, I have yet to see him state that the Catholic Church is the church of Christ. He makes a career out of early church history.

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church were one Church known as “Catholic” until the Schism of 1054 in which the Orthodox broke away from Rome. Any history spoken about before 1054 (the “early Church”) is referring to the one Church (East and West) with primacy of the See in Rome known since at least 110 as the “Catholic Church”. Fr. McGuckin doesn’t need to state that the Catholic Church was “the early Church”. The early Church fathers already told us that. All “Christians” were called “Catholics” in the early Church.

"Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church." - St. Ignatius of Antioch circa 110 A.D., auditor of the Apostles and Bishop of Antioch martyred on the road to Rome.

I encourage you to continue reading the early Church Fathers in depth. You will have concrete proof that the early Church was indeed Catholic.

 

[Eden]

CatherineofA:

I am not trying to defend Protestants. I was making a point that my personal experiences have not shown them to act any more Christ-like than Protestants.

The test of validity is not whether or not members of the Church “act more Christ-like”, as the Church is full of saints and sinners, the question is, which Church holds the Truth?

 

[CatherineofA]

Eden:

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church were one Church known as “Catholic” until the Schism of 1054 in which the Orthodox broke away from Rome. Any history spoken about before 1054 (the “early Church”) is referring to the one Church (East and West) with primacy of the See in Rome known since at least 110 as the “Catholic Church”. Fr. McGuckin doesn’t need to state that the Catholic Church was “the early Church”. The early Church fathers already told us that. All “Christians” were called “Catholics” in the early Church.

"Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church." - St. Ignatius of Antioch circa 110 A.D., auditor of the Apostles and Bishop of Antioch martyred on the road to Rome.

I encourage you to continue reading the early Church Fathers in depth. You will have concrete proof that the early Church was indeed Catholic.

I was not denying that the early church was Catholic. However, there is a difference in the early church and the first Christians in the era around Christ. It is in THAT era that I have not seen McGuckin refer to the early Christians as Catholic. This era has nothing to do with the roots of Orthodoxy. No one denies its relationship with Catholicism or its roots from it. THAT is a separate issue from McGuckin’s comments about the early Christians. If you can show me where he says that Christ and the first Christians were Catholic, show me.
My rading of early church history is more than the Catholic view. It has an obvious need to support its view.

 

[CatherineofA]

Eden:

The test of validity is not whether or not members of the Church “act more Christ-like”, as the Church is full of saints and sinners, the question is, which Church holds the Truth?

I agree. However, the truth of the Catholic faith is still debatable for me.

 

[Eden]

CatherineofA:

I agree. However, the truth of the Catholic faith is still debatable for me.

It’s nice to agree on something.

If you are interested, I would recommend reading the Ignatian letters. St. Ignatius of Antioch was auditor to the Apostles.
He not only received directly from the Apostles the “substance of revelation” but He received from the Apostles their own inspired interpretation of revelation. He knew the men whom Christ had chosen to transmit His message. He was a direct link - and he wrote, among other things, of the primacy of Rome:

Contents of the letters It is scarcely possible to exaggerate the importance of the testimony which the Ignatian letters offer to the dogmatic character of Apostolic Christianity. The martyred Bishop of Antioch constitutes a most important link between the Apostles and the Fathers of the early Church. Receiving from the Apostles themselves, whose auditor he was, not only the substance of revelation, but also their own inspired interpretation of it; dwelling, as it were, at the very fountain-head of Gospel truth, his testimony must necessarily carry with it the greatest weight and demand the most serious consideration. Cardinal Newman did not exaggerate the matter when he said (“The Theology of the Seven Epistles of St. Ignatius”, in “Historical Sketches”, I, London, 1890) that “the whole system of Catholic doctrine may be discovered, at least in outline, not to say in parts filled up, in the course of his seven epistles”. Among the many Catholic doctrines to be found in the letters are the following: the Church was Divinely established as a visible society, the salvation of souls is its end, and those who separate themselves from it cut themselves off from God(Philad., c. iii); the hierarchy of the Church was instituted by Christ (lntrod. to Philad.; Ephes., c. vi); the threefold character of the hierarchy (Magn., c. vi); the order of the episcopacy superior by Divine authority to that of the priesthood (Magn., c. vi, c. xiii; Smyrn., c. viii;. Trall., .c. iii);the unity of the Church (Trall., c. vi;Philad., c. iii; Magn., c. xiii);the holiness of the Church (Smyrn., Ephes., Magn., Trall., and Rom.); the catholicity of the Church (Smyrn., c. viii); the infallibility of the Church(Philad., c. iii; Ephes., cc. xvi, xvii); the doctrine of the Eucharist (Smyrn., c. viii), which word we find for the first time applied to the Blessed Sacrament, just as in Smyrn., viii, we meet for the first time the phrase “Catholic Church”, used to designate all Christians; the Incarnation (Ephes., c. xviii); the supernatural virtue of virginity, already much esteemed and made the subject of a vow (Polyc., c. v); the religious character of matrimony (Polyc., c. v); the value of united prayer (Ephes., c. xiii);**the primacy of the See of Rome **(Rom., introd.). He, moreover, denounces in principle the Protestant doctrine of private judgment in matters’ of religion (Philad. c. iii), The heresy against which he chiefly inveighs is Docetism. Neither do the Judaizing heresies escape his vigorous condemnation.

I’m not sure what exactly what you feel is debatable about the Catholic Church being the True Church. But I think St. Ignatius’ direct link to the Apostles makes him a strong enough witness to Christ’s plan and the revelation through the Apostles to at least eliminate the above elements as being debatable.

 

[scylla]

Of course John A. McGuckin is not going to say that the early Catholic Church is the Church Christ established. This goes directly against what many Orthodox believe, since he is an Orthodox priest it is contrary to his position to state that.

I wouldn’t look at commentaries, or quotes which usually can be twisted to fit an agenda. Go to the source and read fully.

You can read Ignatius of Antiochs letters in a few days and see for yourself, it isn’t difficult reading and is a good way to get perspective of the Church in those days.

Why not read Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, the Didache and see for yourself. If any of you have financial problems with purchasing this I would be happy to help just PM me.

In addition to make sure there is no bias, I would look at the Penguin Books as I am pretty sure that isn’t a Catholic source if you want to make sure you can get a clear unbiased perspective on things.

us.penguingroup.com/

Just search “early Christian writings”

I prefer you support someone like Tan books, but in all fairness you deserve to have peace of mind.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Bethh]

AS I life long Protestant, but one who has always searched for the turth, I went to some RCC classes for those of us seeking to know the truth of the Catholic Church, I was amazed at such warm loving people, and wanted to finish the classes, but let my family turn me away from joining the RCC. I now deeply regret it, mostly after the funeral of the Pope and now the new Pope, I spent hours watching and learning of the church’s views on the Pope, I sincerly need the blessings and forgiveness of out Lord Jesus Christ.

may God have mercy on my soul.

 

[Eden]

Bethh:

AS I life long Protestant, but one who has always searched for the turth, I went to some RCC classes for those of us seeking to know the truth of the Catholic Church, I was amazed at such warm loving people, and wanted to finish the classes, but let my family turn me away from joining the RCC. I now deeply regret it, mostly after the funeral of the Pope and now the new Pope, I spent hours watching and learning of the church’s views on the Pope, I sincerly need the blessings and forgiveness of out Lord Jesus Christ.

may God have mercy on my soul.

Bless you, Bethh and “welcome”!

 

[Cairisti]

Bethh:

AS I life long Protestant, but one who has always searched for the turth, I went to some RCC classes for those of us seeking to know the truth of the Catholic Church, I was amazed at such warm loving people, and wanted to finish the classes, but let my family turn me away from joining the RCC. I now deeply regret it, mostly after the funeral of the Pope and now the new Pope, I spent hours watching and learning of the church’s views on the Pope, I sincerly need the blessings and forgiveness of out Lord Jesus Christ.

may God have mercy on my soul.

First, Welcome Bethh! I too started RCIA last year and stopped when I was confronted with the objections of my family (there’s a thread somewhere in here about it) Anyway, keep praying and ask for forgiveness. (And also speak to a priest if you can or pray (oops! Ask ) Mary to help you. I’m PM you as I don’t want to hijack the thread. You can always re-join RCIA. God Bless you.

 

[RyanL]

Bethh,

Welcome, and may God bless you and your family richly. Mother Church always has her arms open, so you may come home at any time you would like. If you have questions, I (and many others) would love to tell you what the Church teaches, and why.

Long and short of it - pray for the Holy Spirit to lead you to the fullness of Truth, and then trust where He leads you. Amazing things happen when you let God take the wheel!

RyanL

 

[mercygate]

Bethh:

AS I life long Protestant, but one who has always searched for the turth, I went to some RCC classes for those of us seeking to know the truth of the Catholic Church, I was amazed at such warm loving people, and wanted to finish the classes, but let my family turn me away from joining the RCC. I now deeply regret it, mostly after the funeral of the Pope and now the new Pope, I spent hours watching and learning of the church’s views on the Pope, I sincerly need the blessings and forgiveness of out Lord Jesus Christ.

may God have mercy on my soul.

Jesus leads like a shepherd; he will come tenderly for you, and you will be ready. Keep following him. There is no rule that says there won’t be starts and stops. Your family will respect you for having respected them, and when you finally are safe in the fold, it will be all the sweeter to you. Peace, my sister.

 

[Cade_One]

Hello April

I want you to know that I think you ar great!
My story starts out like this. I was started off as a baby Catholic…Then when I was a little older then you I left the church and started attending going to a non-denominational. Like you my love for God was so abundant. I met many wonderful Christians while there. I didn’t leave my Catholic Faith because I was mad at the church, but rather, because I was young. "Why go here when I can go to a church where they play Rock and Roll. Where they let you eat donuts during the service. Where they have big screen monitors (I was really into materalism back then).

Three years later I go off to College. I got hired at Super Kmart to make a few extra bucks. It was one night at work that I got called up to the service desk, when I saw this beautiful girl working as cashier. She smiled at me and I about dropped. Throughout that night I made up reasons to go up to the service desk. I was like "Oh, you said grocery department. I thought you said lawn and garden department I couldn’t talk to her though. “This girl is way too good for me.” This went on for about a week. I found out that the other kid who also worked in lawn and garden lived next door to her. I know a little childish, but… I had him ask her out for me. How smooth is that. And the best part was that she was a Christian. She attended a Brethern Church. So I agreed to attend her youth group on wednesday nights. Again I met a lot of wonderful peers. Funny thing is I had met some of these kide before. Now this is nat a small town. I later realized that God had a plan for me weather I went along with it or not. And I did take a few detours, but in the end He guided me and continues to guide me where He wants me to be. There were several chances for me to meet Shanon, but at the time I didn’t recognize them. All I know is that Christ never gave up on me.

Ok; while at these little youth groups though something bothered me. One of the youth pastors started a particular night off with a Catholic joke. Now even though I had left my Catholic Faith all together, this really bothered me deeply. It later hit me that I wasn’t going to this Church for God… I was just going there because Shanon was just so darn cute.
I got a call from a High School instructor (I was kind of the teachers pet) called me up with a job opportunity as a Graphic Designer. I was very excited, but this would mean that I would have to leave Shanon and move back home which was about 1 and a half hours away (here in Ohio we measure distence in time .) The good thing was that I had off the weekends so Friday after work I would head up north. I had a good friend from college who graciously let me stay at his parents house (with their permission of course). I started my new job one day befor September 11th took place. When we found out what had happened my boss asked anyone who would like to hava prayer they are welcome to join in outside in the parking lot. “Wow. this is so cool” I thought to myself (Not what had happended earlier that day). But rather "look at all these Christians, some whom I never would have known were Christions. At the end of the mini prayrer service I made the “sign of the cross”. That is one thing I never stopped doing when I left the Catholic Church. What a great way to wittness. Not in a “in your face kind of way”, but If I’m praying in a resturaunt silently befor I eat my #2 plain with baccon and mustard. People will see me making the sign of the cross. Kind of like the Jesus fish on the back of a car. Now the sign of the cross is more than just a sign to me. It has a much deeper meaning to me. Anyway I come to find out that the majority of the women I work with are Bretheron. Now please don’t get me wrong, I’m not intentionally picking on The Bretheron. But in my entire life I had never had a problem with persons from any other denomination. I am not one who basis an entire group based on the actions of a select few from the group. Like I said I met many great people at Shanon’s Church. I was still going to Church with Shanon on the weekends. The women at work surounded me. I was bit nervous. Just then they start firing off questions. One after another. "Why do you worship Mary? Why do you baptise babies?.. They wouldn’t even let me get a word in. Any time I started to say something they would abruptly say “Well, that’s not in my Bible!” I was trying to explain to them that I had left the Catholic Church about four year prior. These questions began to echoe in my head. So prayed. “Lord help me to forgive these ladies. Oh Holy Spirit, I do not know what you have planned for me, but I trust You, Lord.” Later that week while eating lunch in my car I turned on radio. To my surprise there was a show called Catholic Answers. I began to realize that I really didn’t know the Faith that I left. I started to really study what the Catholic Church teaches. To be continued…

 

[Cade_One]

…continued
I started to read the Bible a lot more that I ever had. Shanon didn’t know anything about this. Super K was working her Sundays so she stopped going to church. I decied that I was going to attend Mass that Sunday. But I had questions of my own. “Will I be accepted back (I felt a lot like the prodical son)? Has things changed in 4 years? What church should I go to (there were four Catholic Churches in that City)? Do I tell Shanon?” There were all kinds of questions. I’m not really good at making decisions, so I chose attend Mass at the next town up (They only have one Catholic Church to choose from). Now all I had to do is tell Shanon. I thought this would be the easy part. Nope! She threw herself onto her bed and mumbled into her pillow, “I don’t know you any more!” Wow, I wasn’t expecting that :ehh:. Then came on the questions. It was like a reply of what had happened at work. Only this time a was a little more prepaired to answer them.

Sunday morning – I’m driving to go to church. It is the most beutiful day. The sun was shining; there were white puffy clouds, a cool breeze. The waters of Lake Erie reflecting sky. It was like God was saying Good morning, Joshua I was still a bit nervouse though. I got ther a little early. I get to the front doors of Immaculat Conception Church in Port Clinton, Ohio. I took a deep breath and proceeded. When I got inside I was greeted by not one, but three smiling faces. I’m started feeling a lttile better. I pick a seat up close (not the fron row, but couple rows back). I knelt down on the kneeler and was instantly humbled. Mad the “sign of the cross”, closed my eyse and began to pray. “Lord, You have sacraficed so much for me. Your Love is Amazing! I pray for anyone who is going through the same spiritual struggles as I am now going through. Help Shanon to understand why I am doing what I am doing. I am doing this for my love of You, Christ, Jesus, not for my own selfishness. In the name of The Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit , Amen.” I opened my eyes. The place was filled with light. It so was beutiful. There was rays of sunlight shining upon Jesus on the cross. What greater love is This? The non-denominational Church didn’t even have a cross without Jesus on it. My eyes started to teary. I looked around at these people around me. The pews were starting to fill up. It was beautiful. All of these people here to be in the True presense of God. During the Mass senses were superfied (I think I made that word up). I heard every prayer spoken, every reading from the Bible just came alive, and the Chuior sounded like it was from Heaven. There was just so much love that just started balling (I sure hope my guy friends don’t ever read this.) It makes me think of that Toby Mac song “Love is in the House”. Needless to say it was as if I never left.

When Shanon got home she sarcastically asked how it went. I didn’t want to sound too excited so I said “Good”. She started to act weird around me. Afraid of what might come from this I once again hit my knees in Prayer. I put everything in His hands. I tried to reasure Shanon that I am the same guy, but the truth was that I was changing. Changing for the better. I was a much nicer person. I became less judgemental of others. I began to love people closer to how God intends for us to love others. Shanon started to notice this change in me and finally agreed to come with me the next time she had off of work. That day came sooner that she had hoped. I tried to explained to her that this will be a little different for her. But to "try and really listen to the prayers and the reading from sacred scripture. Try not to worry so much about the rest of the stuff around you that can be confusiong to non-Catholics. On the way there she said she felt sick to her stomouch. I told her not to worry (like that was going to help). After Mass was over she had a lot of questions about the liturgy and why we do certain things. I answered many of her questions. She agreed to go again some time. That some time was during Lent. She saw something so beautiful to her. She got to see a baby being baptised into the Christian Family. Also during the Easter Season she got to see about a dozen people who had been taking RCIA classes and learning about the Faith and had decided to join the Church. Now this part was very beautiful to me. I through into our conversation on the way home that if she would like to go through RCIA that I would gladly be her sponsor , but if not that is fine too. She replied that she just wasn’t ready yet and I respected that. Holy Week was just awsome! Sometime soon after Shanon told me she had been thinking about RCIA and that If I got the information that she would concider it. Once again I played it cool. I responded “ok”. But inside I was overwhelmed with joy. To be continued…