Question for protestants from a protestant

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Shlemele:
I apologize if I was unclear, I know this is a rare thing and there is much I don’t know about the exact ceremonies. The fact though that a human can through process to make a decision that is infallible is a problem for me, no matter if it’s done once a millennium or once a week.

For me it’s not so much that this is exercised it is that it exists in the law of the Catholic church. I know popes are human and that they make mistakes, history is full of church leaders on all sides making horrible choices and though rare and improbable from the protestant perspective there is a chance that “man made” ( in origin) laws could attain the same level as the law of God.

I’m not trying to offend, just stating a reservation I have. Again I know this isn’t something the Pope has used much in the last century but it’s not that is has been used, it is that it can be used.
It’s good that you recognize that the frequency of the protection of infallibility isn’t the main issue. That good. Know why? Because you probably believe that a Pope has definitely been protected from teaching error in matters of faith & morals when Peter wrote his part of the Bible. :whistle:

However I should point out that teaching with protection from error is not the same as divine revelation and is not inspiration.
catholic.com/library/papal_infallibility.asp
 
Hi April! -

I know you are seeking protestant opinions, but I feel that I must say something.

Getting to know all the opinions in the world concerning Catholicism has opened my eyes to things I never knew existed.

Where I live, in the Northeastern United States, minds are open to allowing anyone his or her religion. I have never met anyone that truly disparaged the Catholic religion, although there are many who disagree with it. It would be fair to say that I live in the most heavily Catholic populated state in the Union. But along with this statistic, there are also many different non-Catholic denominations and non-christian religions. We live in harmony and exchange ecumenical services.

I have found out that many christian religions include anti-Catholicism in thier daily practices. Some recite anti-Heterodox prayers during certain liturgies, others include anti-Catholic sentiment during religious studies. Still others go as far as to include anti-Catholicism in both prayer and practice as a whole foundation of thier religion.

The Catholic Church does not do any of this. I have never heard a word from priest or practitioner that derided any other religion, contained within the auspices of the Church. There are no teachings, prayers, or opinions stated during mass, sermon or homily that in any way denigrate another religion.

This church teaches love among all people. It’s primary example of this teaching is the Pope, especially John Paul II, God rest his soul. This, in my opinion, is all the proof I need that shows the power of the keys and the guiding light that comes from them. IT MUST BE PETER. How can it be otherwise?

This is why I will never ever consider moving to another religion. I would have to lower my standards: The standards that were taught to me by the Holy Catholic Church. This church walks in the words, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” From what I can see, there are not many others that do.

I don’t really mean to offend anyone by saying this. But the truth is the truth.

Subrosa
 
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april_hosen:
Hmm,
The thing is I already have a direct relationship with Christ. And this is without the church. I’m a little bit afraid that if I do convert my relationship will become a backseat, to focusing on Priests, the Pope and Mary.I suppose the relationship depends on the person…but goodness, I am just scared out of my mind. Because I know if I were to do this then I would be completely alone. But Ikeep on hearing Gods voice.
As a former Protestant your fear is an unfounded one.The Eucharist:love: :love: http://bestsmileys.com/love1/3.gif
 
Oh, and another thing, April -

I think it was Shlemele who said *“Speaking from my perspective i found the Catholic church to be a bit cold. We all stood, say, gave the secret handshake (except me, they don’t tell protestants these things 😛 ) and read along in the misslete (sp?). I felt like I was reading a script and never interacting with God.” *

I think that I can understand this point of view, however it is important to understand that the Mass is an ancient form of worship. Even though the Mass we have today is “updated”, it still has it’s roots in the ancient tradition.

The Whole Mass from beginning to end is an interaction with God, most espescially it is when the Eucharist is received by the parishoners.

It may be only something that Shlemele was not familiar with, not to disparage Shlemele. But he is right. It may take some getting used to.

I know that when I attend Mass (sometimes six days a week!), I feel spiritually fed and closer to Jesus. I hunger for the Eucharist and long for it when I miss it. When I receive it, I feel the Spirit of Jesus flowing through me. Others describe it this way, also.

Subrosa
 
April,

I’m glad I could speak for us and I hope I have at least given you some things to think about. The Catholic church has many great faith traditions, *looks at the dropped jaws… “WHAT!!!” 😃 * and there are certainly things about it that are good. I would encourage you to check out a service or two, maybe attend a class at a RC church and see how it sets with you.

That being said I would also recommend trying other denominations (I’m partial to Mennonite Brethren and I think we have a few great things going for us too, check out MCC and MDS, both great organizations). Mennonite and Baptist are both Anabaptist churches but there are a few modern distinctions. There should be some in Colorado, Estes is where every four years we have our youth meeting, and there are quite a few churches in Kansas including Tabor college, a Mennonite college.

I know that God has a place for you, if it is in the RC church then I pray that you find your way there, if not I pray that you find a community of faith that will bless you and give to you a sense of community that you desire. Wherever you go commit to it 100%. Dig your spiritual teeth into it and never let go. Be you Protestant or Catholic be the best Christian you can OUTSIDE of the church. Growing up I saw many (again Protestant and Catholic) who went through churches like fashion trends. God calls us to a relationship with him, and (speaking for the Protestants again) not a relationship with a building. Find a community and then worry about the label it carries.

May God bless you and guide you in this decision. You will be in my prayers as well as many others I’m sure.
 
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Eden:
Yes you do have a relationship with Christ in the Baptist faith! But you could have a complete relationship through the “bride” of Christ - His Church and His Sacraments -particularly the Eucharist. I know that you may have some trouble with this idea - that Christ is actually present in the Catholic Eucharist but it’s not symbolic!

I can imagine that the thought of eating Christ makes you go :eek: (most of His followers did too) but it is a great mystery that He gave to us.

Here are some excerpts from an article about the “Real Presence”:

Jesus first repeated what he said, then summarized: “‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” (John 6:51–52).

His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally—and correctly. He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53–56).

No Corrections

Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct “misunderstandings,” for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction?

On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12). Here, where any misunderstanding would be fatal, there was no effort by Jesus to correct. Instead, he repeated himself for greater emphasis.

In John 6:60 we read: “Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’” These were his disciples, people used to his remarkable ways. He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).

But he knew some did not believe. (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) “After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him” (John 6:66).

This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If it had all been a misunderstanding, if they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out? **Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically. **

But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have “to eat my flesh and drink my blood.” John 6 was an extended promise of what would be instituted at the Last Supper—and it was a promise that could not be more explicit.

For the full article go here: catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp
This is a most amazing twist of scripture. The exegesis is fundamentally wrong and here is the advocating of cannabilism that Rome’s doctrine of transubstanstiation propagates.

April work through the whole analogy our Lord gives here and you will see the figurative sense of his words and how eating his flesh and drinking his blood are used as meaning coming to Him by faith.

Rome’s error in the Mass is one BIG reason for not being part of it.

With sincere concern

Pastor Robert
 
Pastor Robert:
This is a most amazing twist of scripture. The exegesis is fundamentally wrong and here is the advocating of cannabilism that Rome’s doctrine of transubstanstiation propagates.

April work through the whole analogy our Lord gives here and you will see the figurative sense of his words and how eating his flesh and drinking his blood are used as meaning coming to Him by faith.

Rome’s error in the Mass is one BIG reason for not being part of it.

With sincere concern

Pastor Robert
Read John6. How come when all Christs disciples walked away Christ did not tell them he was not being literal. In fact Christ asks in the end of the chapter of his apostles whether they were going to abandon him as well, giving no clue that he was speaking in a metaphor or analogy. All clues lead to the fact that he was being completely literal.

Second, read 1Corinthians11. Paul says

whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

Unworthy!!! For recieving a symbol??? How can someone be unworthy and be guilty of the body of Christ if it is a mere symbol? Truth is it is impossible.

Third, the apostles must have been horrendous teachers and Christ must have been horrible at choosing good disciples if the teaching that it was a mere symbol couldn’t even last to the end of the century. Look at Ignatius of Antioch, who was the disciple of John the apostle. He said,

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Ignatius to the Smyrnians

As we can see, the first century Christans, as well as the writers of the bible and the apostles taught the true presence. Romes doctrine on The Eucharist is one of the greatest reasons to become Catholic.
 
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april_hosen:
Hmm,
The thing is I already have a direct relationship with Christ. And this is without the church. I’m a little bit afraid that if I do convert my relationship will become a backseat, to focusing on Priests, the Pope and Mary.I suppose the relationship depends on the person…but goodness, I am just scared out of my mind. Because I know if I were to do this then I would be completely alone. But Ikeep on hearing Gods voice.
April -

Priests, The Pope and mary guide us to Christ. In more proper order…

The Pope is the spiritual leader and chief minister of the Church here on earth. He is also to be Christ’s example to us. As Jesus commanded Peter, “Feed My sheep”, The Pope takes up this responsibility as Peter’s successor.

Priests are the helpers of the Bishops, including the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. They have specific duties within the Church. They are the providers of the sacraments. Without the priests one cannot receive Communion, be married, baptised, be anointed when sick, partake in the sacrament of reconciliation, or have a valid Mass, among other things. For these things priests are necessary.

Mary is the highest among Saints and Queen of Heaven She is our chief intercessor and shows us to Her Son when we ask Her to. We Christians are all Her offspring. (Read Revelation chapter twelve for this understanding of Mary)

All of these aspects direct us to Christ and are there to assist us in our relationship with God.

Please don’t think that they in any way distract us from that goal. Catholics are drawn to Christ with the help of these people and Mary. With thier help we gain a stronger relationship with Him, stronger than any personal relationship can bring, due to the Sacraments.

These Sacraments were instituted by Christ Himself for this purpose…

If you would like a clearer understanding of Catholic teachings on these and other matters, meander through the Catechism…
vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

Subrosa
 
Pastor Robert,

I assume that you respect the early Church Fathers. Do you realize that transubstantiation was “a given” for 500 years?

Source: therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

"Thus, I decided to research what the Early Christians believed on this issue. I searched the indices for “Eucharist” in many volume sets on Early Christian writings, and I was astonished at my discovery. The Early Christians actually took the Real Presence for granted. It doesn’t even seem as if there was much debate. I could not find anyone who denied the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament before the year 500 A.D."

**ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: **“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.” “Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: “I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.” -“Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: “Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.” -Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR: “This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus." " First Apology”, Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155

ST. IRENAEUS OF LYON: [Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies." Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

ST. IRENAEUS OF LYON: So then, **if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God’s gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ’s Blood and Body and is His member? **As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, ‘For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones’ (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of ‘spiritual’ and ‘invisible’ man, ‘for a spirit does not have flesh an bones’ (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and ‘the grain of wheat falls into the earth’ (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. **These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ." **

Please read the entire article to learn the “truth” of transubstantiation and the early Fathers.
 
Pastor Robert:
This is a most amazing twist of scripture. The exegesis is fundamentally wrong and here is the advocating of cannabilism that Rome’s doctrine of transubstanstiation propagates.

April work through the whole analogy our Lord gives here and you will see the figurative sense of his words and how eating his flesh and drinking his blood are used as meaning coming to Him by faith.

Rome’s error in the Mass is one BIG reason for not being part of it.

With sincere concern

Pastor Robert
Welcome aboard, Pastor Robert! Glad to have you.

With all due respect Pastor, could you please show us where in the Bible Chist says the the bread and wine “represent” or “symbolize” His body and blood?

Quite frankly, if you believe that He can change water into wine, along with a host of other miracles, why is it a stretch to believe that He can change bread and wine into His body and blood?

If you do some research, I believe that you will find that this spiritual belief is the same in all of the ancient churches, be they Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Syrian, Indian, etc. It is not the sole idium of the church of Rome.

Respectfully, I do not wish to change the course of this thread. If you think you would like to take up this issue, please start a new thread. Or, if you wish, I will start the thread. Then the debate can take place there.

Again, welcome aboard!
Subrosa
 
I have seen the term “Real Absence” to refer to the “symbolic” use of Bread and Wine in Protestant churches. Here is another source that shows that the idea of “symbolism” is not supported by the early Church Fathers:
  • John 6:43-68. A key passage where Jesus calls Himself the “bread of life” and demands we eat him literally (the word “eat” gets stronger each time he says it and literally means “gnaw”). He also loses many of His disciples who cannot accept the teaching.
  • Luke 22:19-20, Matt 26:26-29, and Mark 14:22-25. The passage recited in the mass, which says “This is My body” etc.
  • Luke 24:29-31. They don’t recognize Jesus until He celebrates the Eucharist with them.
  • Acts 2:41-42. Notice that they dedicate themselves “to the breaking of bread.”
  • 1 Corinthians 11:23-27. Paul explains the reality of the Eucharist and points out that those who accept unworthily become sick and some die. Very clear.
  • 1 Corinthians 10:15-21. The cup is a “participation” in “the blood of Christ” and the bread is a “participation” in the “body of Christ.”
  • Hebrews 9:11-14. The blood of Jesus “purifies your conscience”
  • Revelation 5:6. Description of the slain Lamb of God, which points to the Passover and Eucharistic sacrifice.
  • St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Romans. c. 110 A.D. - 7, 3 (54a). He desires “the bread of God, which is the Flesh of Jesus Christ”.
  • St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Philadelphians. c. 110 A.D. - 3, 2 (56).** There is “one Flesh . . . and one cup” - refres to them as the Eucharist.**
  • St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Smyrnaeans. c. 110 A.D. - 6, 2 (64). **Chastises those who don’t believe that the Eucharist is the Flesh of Christ. **
  • St. Justin the Martyr First Apology. c. 148 A.D. - 65 (128). Explains clearly that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ, literally. A detailed quote.
  • St. Irenaeus Against Heresies. c. 180 A.D. - 4, 18, 4 (234). The bread is no longer bread but Eucharist - “the Body of the Lord.” Long explanation of transubstantiation and how it affects the receiving believer.
  • St. Irenaeus Against Heresies. c. 180 A.D. - 5, 2, 2 (249). Another long explanation of the purpose of the Eucharist and the reality. Says it “is the Body and Blood of Christ.”
  • Tertullian The Resurrection of the Dead. c. 208 A.D. - 8, 2 (362). Shows the importance of the Eucharist to us and says “the flesh feeds on the Body and Blood of Christ, so that the soul too may fatten on God.”
  • Tertullian The Crown. c. 211 A.D. - 3, 2 (367). Notes: “We take anxious care lest something of our Cup or Bread fall on the ground.”
  • St. Hippolytus of Rome The Apostolic Tradition. c. 215 A.D. - 21 (394i). This is a detailed explanation of how to baptize new Christians and afterward how they are to receive the Eucharist. Points out that “they who believe are nourished like little children” on “the very flesh of Christ.”
  • St. Clement of Alexandria The Instructor of Children. c. 202 A.D. - 2, 2, 19, 4 (410). Explains that the Eucharist is spiritual and actual; also notes that both are present in the Eucharist.
  • Origen Homilies on Exodus. c. 244 A.D. - Hom. 13, 3 (490). **Notes those who worry about one particle falling to the ground and that they should worry about this. **
  • St. Ephraim Homilies. c. 340 - 373 A.D. - 4, 4 (707). Explains the Last Supper and the reality of the Eucharist. Notes “if anyone despise it or treat it with ignominy . . . he treats with ignominy the Son, who called it and actually made it to be His body.”
  • St. Ephraim Homilies. c. 340 - 373 A.D. - 4, 6 (708). **The disciples at the Last Supper “knew that they had eaten of Christ’s body.” An excellent explanation of the reality of the Eucharist. **
  • St. Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lectures. c. 350 A.D. - 22, Mystagogic 4, 3 (845). Points out that we are “sharers of the divine nature” through His Body “in the figure of bread.”
  • St. Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lectures. c. 350 A.D. - 22, Mystagogic 4, 6 (846). **Warns you to not mistake the Eucharist for bread and wine, “for they are . . . the Body and Blood of Christ.” **
 
You are doin a good job Eden.🙂 Keep up the good work. Go diocese of Pittsburgh.
 
I urge you all to ignore pastor Robert. The most vehement anti-Catholics on the planet are reformed baptist pastors. Discussion with him will not be fruitful. He uses terms like romanism, cannibalism…well, we’ve heard them all. His lack of charity increases with each post. It seems like he is here to get his shots in before he is suspended.

April, this is a good example of how visciously the Catholic Church is attacked. You should be prepared to become a target if you convert. But hey, it wouldn’t be the Church that Christ founded if it wasn’t persecuted.
 
Pastor Robert:
This is a most amazing twist of scripture. The exegesis is fundamentally wrong and here is the advocating of cannabilism that Rome’s doctrine of transubstanstiation propagates.

April work through the whole analogy our Lord gives here and you will see the figurative sense of his words and how eating his flesh and drinking his blood are used as meaning coming to Him by faith.

Rome’s error in the Mass is one BIG reason for not being part of it.

With sincere concern

Pastor Robert
Pastor: 🙂

One of the main reasons the early Christians were martyred was because they were accused of cannibalism by the Romans. Please read the apology of St. Justin Martyr. He defends the teaching of the Real and Substantial Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Now, tell me, if it was just symbolism, do you not think all those christians would have told the Romans so, at least to save their lives?

They (Christians) knew they were eating the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of the Lord, and that this was not cannibalism, but the way to perfect communion with our Lord. They were still killed for this belief, which the Romans, like yourself, had misunderstood.

Something else, in John 6, all those disciples turned away when Jesus re-emphasised what he said: to eat his body and drink his blood. Jesus didn’t call them back telling them that the meaning was symbolic. He re-emphasized what he said. April: Have faith in what Jesus established. Don’t turn away from the Truth because the teachings are difficult, like those disciples did. Learn more about the Holy Eucharist and its pre-figurement in the Old Testament. The Truth SHALL set you free.

In Christ,

Jorge.
 
Pastor,

I would love to talk to you about this! I jump at the chance! This, however, is not the appropriate thread. Please start a thread in the Apologetics section about the real presence - on this scriptural matter, I have some real presents for you! (ok…fine…lame joke…but don’t let that stop you!)

May God bless you and keep you, my separated brother in Christ!
RyanL
 
Just chiming in on the “problem” of thinking of the Catholic Church as inseparable from Christ (and speaking as a former Protestant).

Jesus had a physical, material body as a man on earth. Thus, it stands to reason that, following the imagery of Paul that the Church is the Body of Christ, his Church have a physical body on earth to carry out with authenticity the commission he has given her to “make disciples of all nations” (Mt. 28:19).

Christ referred to himself as the Bridegroom, and the Church is his Bride, as Scripture affirms. Bride and the Bridegroom are one flesh.

Why should the Catholic Church be thought of as The Bride? It comes down to history and charism. (“Charism” = the anointing of the Holy Spirit.) Only the Catholic Church and those (unfortunately schismatic) Orthodox Churches, which retain Apostolic Succession, have both the historical and charismatic links that go all the way back to the Apostles and to Christ himself. Only in Apostolic Succession ('nother thread, but it’s Scriptural) do we maintain that web of grace, the sacramental authenticity, the particular grace of Christ’s Church.

When we have identified the Church – or at least that core of the Church which goes back in history and in grace to the Lord himself – we can put our faith in the Church for salvation since her ministry is Christ’s ministry; “we are ambassadors for Christ,” (2Cor 5:20) – an ambassador is entrusted with the powers of the King. Christ is the Savior; the Church is his servant-ambassador.

Once someone has come to recognize the Catholic Church as the core of the visible Church Christ founded, has understood her to be his Body and Bride, has seen that the charism of Christ’s teaching authority has been God-breathed into her by Christ himself on the very day of his Resurrection (Jn 20:23), that despite the sin that is within her (though not of her), she has been the fountainhead of everything one has received of Christian truth, through Scripture and faith – once one has recognized *that, *then to reject the Church, is to reject the very Body and Blood of Christ and to deny Jesus himself.

The recognition that the Church is the gift of Christ himself and, as Paul tells us, “the pillar and foundation of truth” (I Tim 3:15), demands from the honest man assent. I was not able to give that assent for many years. I became an “honest man” when I began to pray: “Lord, if this is your Church, then I need to be IN it and not OUT of it. Do whatever you have to do to make that happen.”
 
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april_hosen:
Hmm,
The thing is I already have a direct relationship with Christ. And this is without the church. I’m a little bit afraid that if I do convert my relationship will become a backseat, to focusing on Priests, the Pope and Mary.I suppose the relationship depends on the person…but goodness, I am just scared out of my mind. Because I know if I were to do this then I would be completely alone. But Ikeep on hearing Gods voice.
Speaking from experience, there is nothing that you describe in your relationship with Jesus Christ that would “take a back seat” in the Catholic Church. Nothing.

I understand your fear of being “completely alone” – if by “alone” you mean that you may be isolated from friends and family. This happens. It can be *very *hard. But there are graces given to those who have left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for him.

Hugs.
 
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Shlemele:
As far as faith goes I believe that one should question your churches motives for everything (hence I don’t think i would make a good Catholic, I don’t respond well to “because I said so” type laws).
*Man! *I wish more Catholics felt like you do and actually would seriously question Catholic teaching instead of just rejecting it unexamined !

Authentic questioning is a critical ingredient of authentic faith. Do not confuse honest questioning with dissent. The one thing I learned on my journey was that the Church had pretty much done a whole lot more thinking than anybody else about the things I had trouble with, and had come up with a lot better answers.

As for the “laws” – as in canon law – they outline the “how” of living out the central issues of our faith life . . .
 
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Shlemele:
I apologize if I was unclear, I know this is a rare thing and there is much I don’t know about the exact ceremonies. The fact though that a human can through process to make a decision that is infallible is a problem for me, no matter if it’s done once a millennium or once a week.

For me it’s not so much that this is exercised it is that it exists in the law of the Catholic church. I know popes are human and that they make mistakes, history is full of church leaders on all sides making horrible choices and though rare and improbable from the protestant perspective there is a chance that “man made” ( in origin) laws could attain the same level as the law of God.

I’m not trying to offend, just stating a reservation I have. Again I know this isn’t something the Pope has used much in the last century but it’s not that is has been used, it is that it can be used.
Your basic misunderstanding here is that it is the Holy Spirit who is infallible. The Pope is a man who can sin and make errors, but Christ promised us that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church that He founded on Peter the Rock. And so when the Pope speaks on a doctrinal matter, it is the Holy Spirit speaking through Him.
 
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mercygate:
Just chiming in on the “problem” of thinking of the Catholic Church as inseparable from Christ (and speaking as a former Protestant).

Jesus had a physical, material body as a man on earth. Thus, it stands to reason that, following the imagery of Paul that the Church is the Body of Christ, his Church have a physical body on earth to carry out with authenticity the commission he has given her to “make disciples of all nations” (Mt. 28:19).

Christ referred to himself as the Bridegroom, and the Church is his Bride, as Scripture affirms. Bride and the Bridegroom are one flesh.

Why should the Catholic Church be thought of as The Bride? It comes down to history and charism. (“Charism” = the anointing of the Holy Spirit.) Only the Catholic Church and those (unfortunately schismatic) Orthodox Churches, which retain Apostolic Succession, have both the historical and charismatic links that go all the way back to the Apostles and to Christ himself. Only in Apostolic Succession ('nother thread, but it’s Scriptural) do we maintain that web of grace, the sacramental authenticity, the particular grace of Christ’s Church.

When we have identified the Church – or at least that core of the Church which goes back in history and in grace to the Lord himself – we can put our faith in the Church for salvation since her ministry is Christ’s ministry; “we are ambassadors for Christ,” (2Cor 5:20) – an ambassador is entrusted with the powers of the King. Christ is the Savior; the Church is his servant-ambassador.

Once someone has come to recognize the Catholic Church as the core of the visible Church Christ founded, has understood her to be his Body and Bride, has seen that the charism of Christ’s teaching authority has been God-breathed into her by Christ himself on the very day of his Resurrection (Jn 20:23), that despite the sin that is within her (though not of her), she has been the fountainhead of everything one has received of Christian truth, through Scripture and faith – once one has recognized *that, *then to reject the Church, is to reject the very Body and Blood of Christ and to deny Jesus himself.

The recognition that the Church is the gift of Christ himself and, as Paul tells us, “the pillar and foundation of truth” (I Tim 3:15), demands from the honest man assent. I was not able to give that assent for many years. I became an “honest man” when I began to pray: “Lord, if this is your Church, then I need to be IN it and not OUT of it. Do whatever you have to do to make that happen.”
Mercygate:

That’s a beautiful explanation. I hope you don’t mind me using this in my own apologetics work 👍 .

Jorge.
 
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