Question for protestants from a protestant

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Originally Posted by CatherineofA
1. Almost every Catholic I know has the same appearance in lifestyle as someone who has no concern for Christ or Christianity.
I have seen them swear, gossip, be mean to others, etc.
Hey now, let’s keep the slams to a minimum here, I personally take offense to that. I certainly DO NOT swear and am definitely not intentionally “mean” to others…we’re ALL humans here, and I would guess that you too are guilty of those things the same as ANYONE else…so don’t generalize, please, because the only Catholics I know have AMAZING hearts for Christ, that was just rude and pety.

Not to hijack the thread, but ouch, major ouch
 
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FuzzyBunny116:
Also, which traditions are you saying are not Biblical?
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Okay,
I’m going to get into so much trouble I can tell! But I want you all to know I completely respect you and your faith! I promise! 🙂
Praying Mary, the belief she is without sin, confessing sins to a Priest and then having him absolve you of your sins. I’ve also heard from a Catholic that if youwere to meet thePope. Its custom to kiss his hand and call him Heavenly Father. Now excuse my references but I’m pretty sure somewhere in the Bible it says thats wrong. Granted that could be a rumor.
I know no religion is perfect. We all have are flaws. Especially me! 🙂 So please do not be offended by this!
 
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RyanL:
Hi, April,

I think you may be getting a bit mixed up. The Catholic Traditions are all biblical, but a lot of them aren’t clear on the surface of scripture. Some of them take real thought to put together - like the Trinity. ‘Trinity’ is never mentioned in the bible, but we believe it. Why? Because it was implicit in scripture, but not explicitly stated. Same with a lot of Catholic beliefs. Mary’s Immaculate Conception and Assumption into Heaven are both *implicitly *in scripture, but aren’t screamed in bold type (if you will). If you like, we can start a new thread where we walk you through where to find it in scripture.

I think you may be having trouble with Traditions, as well. Sacred Tradition is not a secret that Bishops pass in whispered tones in the basement of the Vatican - Tradition is the “lived faith of the Church”. It’s not that it’s not written (indeed, much of it is), but rather it’s expressed consistantly and persistantly in the history of our Catholic Fathers. Think of it like America - I’ll put the parallels in parenthesis. We have the Constitution (Bible), but some things aren’t really clear on the surface - like if “shouting fire in a crowded theatre” should be covered under Freedom of Speach (if polygamy is sinful - Luther and Calvin thought it could be justified based on Scripture Alone). What do *we *do? *We *take it to an official interpreting body (Matt 18:15-18), the Judicial Branch (Church) to understand this. They go back and look at how the fore-fathers thought about these things when writing the Constitution, and they see what earlier court rulings there were on the matter (Early Church Fathers - like Ignatius). Based on the understanding of the Constitution and the writers’ teachings, we are able to have a “living” government.

SO…it’s not at all like the telephone game. Make more sense now?

God bless,
RyanL
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Yes it makes more sense now 🙂 thank you. But with what you were saying about the Trinity in the Bible there are multiple references to the Trinity. Seriousely multiple! To name a few: Ge 1:26, Ge 3:22, Isa 6:3,8, Isa 42:1–>See Mathew 12:18, Isa 48:16, Luke 4:18, Isa 61:1-3, Isa 63:9-10, Mathew 1:18-20, Mathew 3:11–>See Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, Mathew 28:19.
Thats just a few!
 
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CheesusPowerKid:
Originally Posted by CatherineofA
*1. Almost every Catholic I know has the same appearance in lifestyle as someone who has no concern for Christ or Christianity. *
I have seen them swear, gossip, be mean to others, etc.
Hey now, let’s keep the slams to a minimum here, I personally take offense to that. I certainly DO NOT swear and am definitely not intentionally “mean” to others…we’re ALL humans here, and I would guess that you too are guilty of those things the same as ANYONE else…so don’t generalize, please, because the only Catholics I know have AMAZING hearts for Christ, that was just rude and pety.

Not to hijack the thread, but ouch, major ouch
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Hey Cathorine,
CheesusPowerKid is actually one of my best friends so I can testify that she’s definately NOT mean! She’s actually the most kind person I know! Also, I have never heard a foul word come out of her mouth! There are indeed AMAZING Catholics who totally have a heart for God, and live for Him! I know its hard because I’ve definately have done this before, but dont judge a whole based off of one person. 🙂
 
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april_hosen:
okay,
But where in the bible does it say the Catholic Church is the Bride? (Call me a Bible thumper, but if its God related but not in Gods word, how can it be true?)
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(thump, thump)

Matthew 16:18

Jesus says to Simon, son of John, “And so I say to you, you are Peter (Aramaic “kepha”, transliterated through Greek into English as “Cephas”), and upon this rock (Aramaic “kepha”) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

One of the Pope’s titles is “Successor to Saint Peter.” There isn’t another church leader who makes that claim.

Interestingly, St. Peter’s tomb was found some decades ago in the basement of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. I don’t have the details at my fingertips, but some workmen were excavating and found a wall on which was written something like “Here is Peter.” Behind the wall they found the bones of a man who died at about the time that St. Peter died, and who was about the age that St. Peter was when he died. So once again, Jesus’ words are to be taken absolutely literally.

If it is God related but not in the Bible … the doctrine of the Trinity is not in the Bible. The use of wedding rings is not in the Bible (in fact, it’s a pagan import). But I see that this point is being discussed elsewhere.
  • Liberian
 
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april_hosen:
… there are multiple references to the Trinity. Seriousely multiple! To name a few: Ge 1:26, Ge 3:22, Isa 6:3,8, Isa 42:1–>See Mathew 12:18, Isa 48:16, Luke 4:18, Isa 61:1-3, Isa 63:9-10, Mathew 1:18-20, Mathew 3:11–>See Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, Mathew 28:19.
Thats just a few!
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Right! The evidence is there, but it’s still not *explicit *(it never says that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons in one divine nature, comprising three Godheads while maintaining only one God). With all of the OT references, keep in mind that the Jews (then *and *now) don’t believe in the Trinity - they only believe in God the Father (Deu 6:4). So the OT is vague, as God had not revealed Himself fully yet. With the NT references you listed, it’s still a little vague. This “vagueness” led Arius into heresy in the 4th century (catholic.com/library/great_heresies.asp ), and resulted in the Nicene Creed (mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html ). This particularly dastardly heresy threatened to tear the early Church apart (thankfully, the promise of Christ wouldn’t let the “gates of Hell” overcome it!). Arius ammassed a number of followers, however, and did it using scripture. As for the result, you’ve probably said the Nicene Creed at your church (most christian churches have) and Arianism has been pretty thoroughly put down.
If you still don’t believe it’s vague, talk to a Jehova’s Witness. This “bible alone” church also believes that Christ was not God, and they use the bible to prove their point (…well…they use their translation, but you get the picture).
If you would like to discuss specifics of a given topic and how biblical it really is (and again, I assure you our dogmas and doctrines are allbiblical) start a thread in the apologetics forum. I’d be more than happy to walk you through any of our beliefs!
RyanL
 
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april_hosen:
Okay,
I’m going to get into so much trouble I can tell! But I want you all to know I completely respect you and your faith! I promise! 🙂
Praying Mary, the belief she is without sin, confessing sins to a Priest and then having him absolve you of your sins. I’ve also heard from a Catholic that if youwere to meet thePope. Its custom to kiss his hand and call him Heavenly Father. Now excuse my references but I’m pretty sure somewhere in the Bible it says thats wrong. Granted that could be a rumor.
I know no religion is perfect. We all have are flaws. Especially me! 🙂 So please do not be offended by this!
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You’re fine, April. We all understand that you are learning what we believe and that it’s all new to you. You ask* really* great questions. Praying to Mary is simply asking her to intercede for us with her Son. She always points the way to her Him. God the Father chose to bring his Son to us through the Virgin Mary. Why then, if we feel so inclined at the time, may we not go through Mary to get to His Son? You may say, “But why not go to Christ directly?” Well, sometimes I feel so humbled and unworthy of speaking directly to Him so I ask Mary, “Will you please present this to your Son?” No human being ever knew Jesus Christ the way the Virgin Mary did. She raised him and was His mother for 33 years. She watched Him die on the cross. Jesus loved His mother very much and He would love for you to love her too. As a Catholic we are not *required *to ask Mary for her intercession. But in His agony on the cross, He gave His mother to both the disciple John as well as to all of us when He said, “Woman, behold your Son” and to John, “Behold your mother.” He has offerred His mother to you and to all of us. But, you are not required to accept the offer for your salvation. I know that Protestants do not believe in apparitions, but the Virgin Mary has appeared to millions. As Christ will not return again until the Second Coming, He uses His mother to broach the divide between Heaven and Earth - to remind us to think of Him. (If you want to see pictures of an apparition in which she appeared to millions - Muslims, Protestants, atheists, Catholics all saw her - I can post them here.) Anyway, if she is good enough for Him to send as a messenger, she’s good enough for me.

(By the way, no one refers to the Pope as “Heavenly Father”.)
 
http://biblia.com/apparitions/virgin-zeitun-16gg.jpg

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

She appeared 2 to 3 times a week from 1968-9 above this Church named after her in Egypt. She knelt before the cross which then radiated light onto her. At other times she blessed the crowd. Being a Muslim country, the Egyptians tried to show this was a hoax. Once they cut all the lights into the city but the vision remained. It was determined that there was no earthly explanation. She was witnessed by millions.

Here’s a link: zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm
 
Required to pray? Nah, only suggested. I’ve never ever heard we’re required to pray to Mary.
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april_hosen:
Okay,
I’m going to get into so much trouble I can tell! But I want you all to know I completely respect you and your faith! I promise! 🙂
Praying Mary, the belief she is without sin, confessing sins to a Priest and then having him absolve you of your sins. I’ve also heard from a Catholic that if youwere to meet thePope. Its custom to kiss his hand and call him Heavenly Father. Now excuse my references but I’m pretty sure somewhere in the Bible it says thats wrong. Granted that could be a rumor.
I know no religion is perfect. We all have are flaws. Especially me! 🙂 So please do not be offended by this!
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Pray


  1. *] To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
    *] To make a fervent request or entreaty.

    We pray to God with the first kind, to saints with the second. We say “Hey saints, I’m having some problems, could you talk to the Big Man for me?” Its no different than asking a friend to pray for you, accept these saints are even closer to God and e even more holy. Mary is the most holy person, outside of Jesus, to ever live.

    catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
    catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
    catholic.com/library/Confession.asp
    catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp

    As for the Pope-we call him Holy Father. You’re thinking of “Call no man Father.” God was referring to in the way we call him Father-as a deity. We call our dads “Father” afterall. Abraham was a “Father of many nations.” I think Paul at some point calls himself father to his friends/discples/followers/whatever. If we didn’t call anyone Father, the word would lose itself and come to merely mean “god.” God the Father would mean “God the god.”
 
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april_hosen:
Hi Jorge!
I like your name! 🙂 Thanks for shedding some light on the Catholic Church history for me. There’s somuch to learn about the Catholic Faith! (Thank you to all wo advised me to wait!) But what I’m trying to get across is that a lot of the Catholic traditions arent Bibical. I understand that they were descended down by the Apostles. Thats all well and good, but they are all oral. I dont know if you anyone here has played telephone. Here I’ll explain. So what you do is you get in a circle w/ a whole bunch of people and someone starts with a statement and whispers it into the person next to them’s ear. Then that person whispers to the person next to them and so on until the last person gets the word. Sometimes the last person has the correct statement. But the majority of the time they have something completely different and its pretty funny. My point here is, is what if thats what happened with the apostles.
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Hi April. Thanks about the name! My birthday is in April!!!

Yes, I’ve played that game. The only difference is that when we play that game, we are not guaranteed that the Truth passed on from one person to another will be protected by the Holy Spirit for centuries to come. In the case of the apostles, they were given that guarantee. The deposit of Faith would be protected, nurtured, and kept free from error and corruption in the Church Jesus founded (his Bride). And, again, the Bible only contains 1/2 of the revelation.

The same thing can be said of the Bible itself (about the game). Eventhough it is written, the meaning can be changed from one person to another, from one time to another. The real meaning will then change over the course of time. That is why it is imperative for there to be a custodian to protect the real meaning. That is what Jesus gave us in the Church, who has the protection of the Holy Spirit to guide her and protect her.

Love,

Jorge
 
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april_hosen:
Hey Cathorine,
CheesusPowerKid is actually one of my best friends so I can testify that she’s definately NOT mean! She’s actually the most kind person I know! Also, I have never heard a foul word come out of her mouth! There are indeed AMAZING Catholics who totally have a heart for God, and live for Him! I know its hard because I’ve definately have done this before, but dont judge a whole based off of one person. 🙂
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I wasn’t referring to her in my comments. I was speaking of the Catholics I have known in my own life.
 
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CheesusPowerKid:
Originally Posted by CatherineofA
1. Almost every Catholic I know has the same appearance in lifestyle as someone who has no concern for Christ or Christianity.
I have seen them swear, gossip, be mean to others, etc.
Hey now, let’s keep the slams to a minimum here, I personally take offense to that. I certainly DO NOT swear and am definitely not intentionally “mean” to others…we’re ALL humans here, and I would guess that you too are guilty of those things the same as ANYONE else…so don’t generalize, please, because the only Catholics I know have AMAZING hearts for Christ, that was just rude and pety.

Not to hijack the thread, but ouch, major ouch
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I am giving you examples out of my OWN experiences. I have known of priests who drink and smoke until fully intoxicated and out of hand. I have seen church members who attend mass every Sunday and be the root of gossip and peer pressure at work. I have also seen Protestants do this. When comparing the two, I don’t see any difference between the two with Catholics being better. What I have seen are a few born again Christians who practive what THEY preach. I have seen that in action many times.
If my own experiences hurt your religious ego, that is the way it is.
 
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FuzzyBunny116:
There is no reason to think Catholics are any “worse” than Protestants. I only have a few friends who are really “into” their faith, and its about even on both sides, probably even leaning a bit to the Catholics. I also know less Catholics than Protestants.

Mary-…so?

Mass-I’m sorry you feel that way. And yes, TV I imagine is MUCH worse. I went to a Methodist service, though once, and I can assure you I’d pick my Mass 100 times over. I have a friend whos considering converting to Catholicism, and he tells me his going to Mass weekly is “the highlight of his week.” The Mass FEELS good, and it FEELS as if God is present. Thats something you cannot get through a television.
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I am not necessarily saying that Catholics are worse than Protestants. I am saying that I don’t see any high pecentages in conduct that make them any better. Saying this, I have personally known born again Christians who have wonderful behavior and live what they preach. I have seen that. I am not saying that there are not Catholics who are good in conduct. I have not personally seen any.

As far as the mass on EWTN, I am comparing it to one minister who is truly inspiring and interesting. Dr. Charles Stanley of In Touch Ministries at First Baptist Church of the Atlanta, Georgia area. www.intouch.org

I have a problem with Mary’s immaculate conception and virgin birth because that puts her without sin. Christ came to save her too. She was a human being.
 
Heres a bit from the Catholic Answers tract on the Immaculate Conception

"Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner! "
 
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CatherineofA:
I am giving you examples out of my OWN experiences. I have known of priests who drink and smoke until fully intoxicated and out of hand. I have seen church members who attend mass every Sunday and be the root of gossip and peer pressure at work. I have also seen Protestants do this. When comparing the two, I don’t see any difference between the two with Catholics being better. What I have seen are a few born again Christians who practive what THEY preach. I have seen that in action many times.
If my own experiences hurt your religious ego, that is the way it is.
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CatherineofA:

I personally know of a Baptist man who is married to a Catholic lady. The man goes to his Baptist church. He also has a girlfriend who he shares an apartment with. He has been unfaithful to his wife for many years this way. The man and his wife have separated and now he has several of these “girlfriends”.

So, you see, this example and others like it has no bearing on the legitimacy of the Baptist faith. People’s impecability or lack thereof, should not be used in a process of induction to prove that a community, church, organization, etc. is invalid. In a case like this, deductive reasoning would lead you to believe that the man I’m talking about is betraying his faith, since the Baptist church surely sees this act as morally wrong. We could then conclude, starting out with basic Baptist doctrine, that this particular individual is doing something wrong, not the Baptist church in general.

This is a little bit dry subject matter, but I’m trying to point out that you cannot conclude anything about the validity of a faith based on the actions of the individuals that comprise that faith.

Jorge. 🙂
 
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CatherineofA:
I am not necessarily saying that Catholics are worse than Protestants. I am saying that I don’t see any high pecentages in conduct that make them any better. Saying this, I have personally known born again Christians who have wonderful behavior and live what they preach. I have seen that. I am not saying that there are not Catholics who are good in conduct. I have not personally seen any.

As far as the mass on EWTN, I am comparing it to one minister who is truly inspiring and interesting. Dr. Charles Stanley of In Touch Ministries at First Baptist Church of the Atlanta, Georgia area. www.intouch.org

I have a problem with Mary’s immaculate conception and virgin birth because that puts her without sin. Christ came to save her too. She was a human being.
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CatherineofA:

Christ did save his mother Mary. Imagine that several people fall into a pit and stain their clothes, break their bones, etc… Someone comes along and throws them a rope. They climb out of the pit. The person that threw them the rope saved these people. Now, there’s another person that is about to fall into that same pit. In this case, the Saviour grabs her before she falls. This person was also saved, but before she fell into the pit. This is the case for Mary.

Jorge. 🙂
 
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Delgadoajj:
CatherineofA:

I personally know of a Baptist man who is married to a Catholic lady. The man goes to his Baptist church. He also has a girlfriend who he shares an apartment with. He has been unfaithful to his wife for many years this way. The man and his wife have separated and now he has several of these “girlfriends”.

So, you see, this example and others like it has no bearing on the legitimacy of the Baptist faith. People’s impecability or lack thereof, should not be used in a process of induction to prove that a community, church, organization, etc. is invalid. In a case like this, deductive reasoning would lead you to believe that the man I’m talking about is betraying his faith, since the Baptist church surely sees this act as morally wrong. We could then conclude, starting out with basic Baptist doctrine, that this particular individual is doing something wrong, not the Baptist church in general.

This is a little bit dry subject matter, but I’m trying to point out that you cannot conclude anything about the validity of a faith based on the actions of the individuals that comprise that faith.

Jorge. 🙂
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I agree that a Baptist can be just as sinful as someone who is of any other group. I think you misunderstood my original intent. I am not saying that the actions of the followers directly relates to the validity of the faith. I was making a comment about my observation of who belongs to which group. An informal-personal statistical observation.

By the way, you don’t have to be Baptist to be born-again. Baptist is the church organization. Born again is the personal experience.
 
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FuzzyBunny116:
Heres a bit from the Catholic Answers tract on the Immaculate Conception

"Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner! "
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It still insinuates that she is without sin. She cannot be without sin if she is human. In addition, Christ could not have saved her in advance withour her own conscious acceptance of Christ’s salvation and her need to have her sins forgiven…
 
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Delgadoajj:
CatherineofA:

Christ did save his mother Mary. Imagine that several people fall into a pit and stain their clothes, break their bones, etc… Someone comes along and throws them a rope. They climb out of the pit. The person that threw them the rope saved these people. Now, there’s another person that is about to fall into that same pit. In this case, the Saviour grabs her before she falls. This person was also saved, but before she fell into the pit. This is the case for Mary.

Jorge. 🙂
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I answered this in my response to fuzzybunny. Just above!
 
Adam and Eve were humans born without sin, and one of the parallels with them is Jesus and Mary are the new Adam. What about the the prophets who came before Christ? Are they not saved? They didn’t have a “consious acceptance” of Christ. Adam and Eve didn’t accept Christ and they were, again, without sin. Not everyone has sinned. Think of aborted babies or other infants who died before the age of reason. To be able to sin, you have to be able to reason and know its wrong. Remember, also, that no being is worthy to carry Christ in her womb. The best that could happen is make the tabernacle that Christ is going to live in for nine months sin and taint free. Remember, OUR LORD is going to live in this place for almost a year. It only makes sense that its sin-free.
 
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