Question For Protestants (if any are here)

[guanophore]

However to suggest that salvation can be contributed to in anyway by pleasing God in and of ourselves is not founded in this text .

I think this statement just represents a skewed understanding of salvation. God does not save us against our will. We contribute ourselves to salvation. He allows us to choose not to please Him, and abandon the gift of grace.

Christ mentions nothing about salvation nor does Matthew. Salvation is the provision of God and man can doing nothing to "cooperate " ,assist, help , alleviate , encourage.

Aaahh. It appears you have been contaminated by the heresies of Calvanism.

 

[GKMotley]

Slightly out of place, depending on which ones you are thinking of.

I doubt anyone expects you to agree.

 

[PLeeD]

First, and the biggest red flag causing me to avoid Roman Catholicism, is the lack of love coming from many CAF posters. There is a real lack of the fruits of the spirit on display in what some catholics post here. It’s really odd when they stridently post claims that I know aren’t supported by what the Catholic church teaches. There is a slavish judgmentalism and adherence to tradition that seems not much different from how the pharisees are described in the bible.

Second, it’s as if many of the above described catholics are completely unaware of the existence of the eastern orthodox churches, and the history of the east/west split. Some catholic posters seem to do nothing here but launch veiled attacks against protestants. Their criticisms of protestantism can easily be turned around on their own religion. Just skimming through this very thread I see quite a bit about disunity between protestant denominations. I view the east/west split as a glass house of disunity from which many catholics like to throw stones. I’m too polite to throw back and smash that glass.

If I was going to convert from protestantism it would definitely be to eastern orthodoxy. I’ve been to many EO services. Maybe the biggest practical problem with making that change is, when I go I want to hear about and be close to Jesus, and too much time spent talking about the theotokos.

Transubstantiation is silly to me. Marianism and prayer to the saints seems like a waste of time when Jesus made it possible for us to come directly to Him and to the Father. I’ve been in catholic services, I’ve been a best man and a groomsman in wedding parties in catholic weddings. I’ve seen nothing going on there that appeals to me.

I actually just tried web searching for a local Catholic Charismatic Renewal group but didn’t find anything. It would be interesting to see what they have going on there.

 

[JonNC]

I can say those words with a straight face and full honesty and not agree with papal supremacy.

I’ve often said here that unity of the Church Militant must go through Rome, not because of supremacy, but because of primacy.

 

[steido01]

Could you pithily explain how it would work by some other means?

May I do so fraternally, instead?

I think the RCC and several Lutheran communions have already put together a reasonable outline that isn’t wishy-washy as so many ecumenical works tend to be.

The dialogues kept in mind two main points:

1. Lutherans are surprisingly open to the concept of a pope – more than many on either “side” often like to admit. This is because they are not dogmatically tied to any one ecclesial polity (like Presbyterians or Roman Catholics), because they consider the local congregation/pastor to be the primary manifestation of the church/bishop. Any governing authority serves a secondary, albeit important, function. If that governing authority takes the form of a singular bishop in a city in southern Europe, Lutherans aren’t necessarily opposed.
2. For all the bombastic bluster and apocalyptic language from the Reformation era, the Lutheran objections to the Papacy are clearly academic in nature. Make the academic case that the papal office is wielded fraternally for the purpose of providing pastoral care to the church, and Lutherans wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to submission to papal authority. But to demand they kiss Papa’s ring and kneel in fealty for no reason other than “Simon [Peter] says,” well… In other words, Lutherans are totally open to a ‘Pastor of Pastors’ at whatever level in the church. Christ didn’t establish a papacy for the sake of a papacy; He established a pastoral office to serve His Church.

I’m not trying to be snide. I just see your presentation as “universal immediate jurisdiction by assent”, which provides problems in my mind (think herding cats, or how it works when a bishop must be disciplined).

Sure, sure. The potential/future church outlined in the document above builds on a concept deeper than mere assent, where one jurisdiction might consent to be governed while another would object. Obviously that would cause a host of issues. No, the governing office would be fully acknowledged as authoritative – a human necessity that could even be considered God’s gift for good order within His Church. All the tools of the church – discipline, training, excommunication, etc. would still be at her disposal (exercised fraternally, of course).

 

[PickyPicky]

If you’re not Catholic or Orthodox, and you are a baptized Christian, you are a Protestant. If you do not like the label of ‘Protestant’, then do not be one.

I have a perhaps old-fashioned liking for politeness, myself.

 

[SnowRose]

I think your summary of the Lutheran position of a renewed shared papacy is welldone, and challanged me to put the concept into other words. It’s ”just” a case of an arch-archbishop, maybe with another layer of arch in between.
However, as you pointed out, jumping when Rome shouts ”toad!” isn’t likely to happen.
I also think you and I represent both the more liberal and the confessional wings of the Lutheran world, which indicates this is a widespread opinion. It’s not a non-issue, but it should be solvable.

 

[steido01]

Thank you, you’re very kind. But I cannot take credit for what truly genius men have thought through for centuries, but I am glad if I have helped provide some insight on how the Pope might use his position for greater unity in the church catholic.

I would hesitate to reduce the solution to having an “arch-archbishop,” however. I’m not advocating a merely useful bureaucracy, but seeking a correct application of the historical church’s mode of governance. I think recent popes have been moving toward the same.

 

[SnowRose]

Lol I used the word archarchbishop slightly flippantly, to put the concept into less hostile terms. And by that I did not intend to prescribe how exactly such a joint governance might work in practice, just indicating that it could.

I suspect the priesthood of all believers, which flows into the view of the sacraments, will be a larger and more insidious hurdle.

 

[Vonsalza]

First, and the biggest red flag causing me to avoid Roman Catholicism, is the lack of love coming from many CAF posters.

As a life-long wanderer who’s been a Baptist, a Calvinist and seems to be currently oscillating between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, let me assure you with zero doubt that every camp - EVERY CAMP - has aggressive, unloving jack-donkeys who spew bile and vitriol far more than they show Christ’s love.

E-V-E-R-Y C-A-M-P. Literally without exception.

It’s really odd when they stridently post claims that I know aren’t supported by what the Catholic church teaches.

Sure. There’s lots of folks who disagree with Catholic dogma who claim to be Catholic. When I was a Baptist, there were lots of folks who didn’t affirm the Baptist Faith and Message yet still claimed to be a Baptist.
Again, this should not surprise you as literally every camp experiences the same issue.

There is a slavish judgmentalism and adherence to tradition that seems not much different from how the pharisees are described in the bible.

Again, no Christian group on this planet is free from this. None of them.

It’s just super-easy to notice it in Catholicism, partly, because it’s so large.

 

[AugustTherese]

AugustTherese:

If you’re not Catholic or Orthodox, and you are a baptized Christian, you are a Protestant. If you do not like the label of ‘Protestant’, then do not be one.

I have a perhaps old-fashioned liking for politeness, myself.

If you’re not Catholic or Orthodox, and you are a baptized Christian, you are a Protestant . If you do not like the label of ‘Protestant’, then do not be one, pretty please with sugar on top .

Better?

 

[AugustTherese]

Marianism and prayer to the saints seems like a waste of time when Jesus made it possible for us to come directly to Him and to the Father

Pray for me! Oh, wait, never mind, I’ll just go “directly to Him and to the Father”.

 

[AugustTherese]

Transubstantiation is silly to me

As it was to Judas Iscariot and many of Our Lord’s disciples that left Him.

 

[PLeeD]

As a life-long wanderer who’s been a Baptist, a Calvinist and seems to be currently oscillating between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, let me assure you with zero doubt that every camp - EVERY CAMP - has aggressive, unloving jack-donkeys who spew bile and vitriol far more than they show Christ’s love.

E-V-E-R-Y C-A-M-P. Literally without exception.

Sure. There’s lots of folks who disagree with Catholic dogma who claim to be Catholic. When I was a Baptist, there were lots of folks who didn’t affirm the Baptist Faith and Message yet still claimed to be a Baptist.
Again, this should not surprise you as literally every camp experiences the same issue.
Again, no Christian group on this planet is free from this. None of them.

It’s just super-easy to notice it in Catholicism, partly, because it’s so large.

No doubt. I’ve left churches where that sort of thing had any sort of prevailing standing. I’ve just seen it in far less proportions in any place I’ve been outside of CAF.

To be fair, the Catholics I know in real life aren’t anything like the most prolific CAF warriors. The catholics I know are like the other Christians I know.

As for the vocal minority I’m describing here on CAF, I’ve never seen the strident recitation of catch-phrases, mottos, slogans, and such outside of cults. I chalk it up to either immature over-exuberance of someone who just finished RCIA and doesn’t know much, but regardless is hell-bent to convert the world by the force of their words, or to the misanthrope who just doesn’t understand how to relate to people properly.

But the question was asked, why am I still protestant? The implication is clearly “instead of Catholic?” I posted my overall reasons. Those opinions have formed over the 8 years I’ve been a member here.

 

[PLeeD]

PLeeD:

Transubstantiation is silly to me

As it was to Judas Iscariot and many of Our Lord’s disciples that left Him.

The old forum was so much nicer to use, Specifically, the block user function was a useful feature.

BTW, if you think Jesus appreciates what you are doing here, I think you are wrong, and He does not appreciate it at all.

I can’t avoid seeing your responses and other posts because of the lack of certain features on this new forum.
Despite that, AFAIK this is my first interaction with you, and it will be my last.

 

[guanophore]

"If faith produces good works then why would non believers also produce good works? ". Now we have to think what are good works ?

While non-believers may do morally good things, these are qualitatively different than ergos hagios. Good works motivated and accomplished through the Holy Spirit are the results if grace. They are the working out of salvation.

 

[Vonsalza]

No doubt. I’ve left churches where that sort of thing had any sort of prevailing standing. I’ve just seen it in far less proportions in any place I’ve been outside of CAF.

Sure, but that’s anecdotal. My badge goes to Calvinists with the Orthodox trailing a close second.

I chalk it up to either immature over-exuberance of someone who just finished RCIA and doesn’t know much, but regardless is hell-bent to convert the world by the force of their words, or to the misanthrope who just doesn’t understand how to relate to people properly.

I chalk it up to the downside if internet anonymity. You can be especially bad because no one is going to tell your parents/spouse/authority figure about it.

But the question was asked, why am I still protestant? The implication is clearly “instead of Catholic?” I posted my overall reasons. Those opinions have formed over the 8 years I’ve been a member here.

Sure, of course.

I’d use my own experiences to post a list of “Why I’m not Protestant; particularly Evangelical” and so on the subjective merry-go-round spins…

Thanks for sharing.

 

[AugustTherese]

Love you, @PLeeD. Did not mean to offend you.

 

[pablope]

pablope:

if you have time, please watch this…at the least from about the 12 minute mark to about the 22nd to 25th minute mark…

Dr. Marshner talks about the paintings or depictions of the early church…pre-Constantine and post-Constantine.

As I recall, Marshner was raised Lutheran. I’ll look, but depictions in art are not the same as canons from councils

Yes…but the art gives a window in the beliefs of the early Church…with Peter being viewed as the new Moses…or legal authority…so there is basis in fact for what “supremacy” or primacy of the anti-Christ who sits at Rome.

 

[JonNC]

PLeeD:

Transubstantiation is silly to me

As it was to Judas Iscariot and many of Our Lord’s disciples that left Him.

I didn’t know that Christ used Greek Aristotelian metaphysics.

@PLeeD , while I personally am comfortable with Christ’s own words, “This is my body…”, there is nothing wrong with Transubstaniation as a reasonable human description of the doctrine of the real presence.