Still don’t get it, do you? The description is of the doctrine of supremacy, which the artists, like the early Church itself, had no imaginings of.
Primacy is not opposed to Christ.
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Primacy is not opposed to Christ.
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PLeeD
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I apologize to everyone for using the word ‘silly’. I don’t mean to belittle the belief. I just don’t see any justification to believe that what the Catholic church says about it is true, or at least that you should be commanded to accept that it’s true.PLeeD:
I didn’t know that Christ used Greek Aristotelian metaphysics.
@PLeeD , while I personally am comfortable with Christ’s own words, “This is my body…”, there is nothing wrong with Transubstaniation as a reasonable human description of the doctrine of the real presence.
I’m perfectly comfortable with what I can understand the orthodox position to be, and appreciate that they don’t try and paint what it is or isn’t into a box. It’s accepted to be a mystery. The individual is not commanded to believe any one particular thing other than that Jesus is really present in the bread and wine. I believe He is there in spirit, which is REAL. The wine is spiritually his blood, and the bread is spiritually his flesh. Beyond that, we cannot perceive any physical change. IMO then, real presence doesn’t necessarily equal physical presence, though it might. I don’t and can’t know. Neither can any other human being living or dead. So, I guess that it’s the telling me I have to believe in a physical presence that I find silly.
Lastly, I would relate that I’ve watched Catholic masses on cable TV, and seen relatively close-up views of the people receiving the eucharist. I can positively say that the reverence and spirituality I’ve observed in the typical protestant communion is equal or greater what I’ve seen in the Catholic church communion, or EO for that matter. I don’t believe I’m missing anything at all in that regard.
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guanophore
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Interesting. How do you define “love from CAF posters”.
I find it curious that you would make such a decision based on an internet forum,where anyone can log on and pretend to be someone they are not! It cannot be determined that any of the “posters” here really are the persons they represent themselves to be! I can attest that many persons on CAF, Catholic and Non, have made assumptions about me, based on my posts, that are entirely inaccurate.
Although I can’t argue with you on this point, one of the realities of an internet forum is that people can (and do) misrepresent themselves purposefully. People say and do things in cyberspace that they would NEVER do in real life. I am not excusing people demonstrating a lack of fruit, I am just saying that your approach of making assessments on the souls of others based on what you read on a discussion forum seems somewhat unreasonable.
I think so too, but then, the majority of American Catholics are very poorly catechized. But this is further reinforcement that one should not make a decision of Catholicism based on what you read here.
This is a human condition, and Catholics are not exempt from it. But one should not make a decision about the Catholic faith based upon those who depart from it, or do not act in accordance with it. This is like rejecting what Jesus taught, based upon how Judas behaved!
I think this is quite true. Although I knew about the EO before I came here, I did not understand or study anything until after I encountered EO on CAF. This alone is sufficient reason to support CAF. WE all need to broaden our understanding of our siblings in Christ!
Well, don’t hesitate to do it! I think this is a very valid approach to fundamentalist Catholics.
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guanophore
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I think this is true, but it is a very small minority. And I will offer, if you ever find this, PM me the post and I will take issue with it!
May I suggest that this is the BEST place to smash any of that glass?
I would not use this term (silly) for it, but I do admit that my sensibilities are much more Eastern. I don’t feel a need, like the scholastics do, to define and explain so many Divine Mysteries.
I realize that those who have not grown up with the concept of the Communion of Saints feel this way. It is difficult to appreciate how it is that we consider those who have gone before us as sibling in the faith.
Have you never known a believer who was a prayer warrior? I have known believers all my life, Catholic and non, who were powerful prayer intecessors, and would go to them in a hot second to ask for intercession. I have never understood how this somehow could interfere with me going “directly”.
Why did Paul ask so many to pray for him? Surely he knew that he could go to God “directly”?
I am interested to know more about this.
I can honestly say, if it were not for the CCC renewal, I don’t know how I might have found my way back to the CC. The movement infused LIFE into me, and helped me to understand the Gifts that were given to me by the Sacraments.
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guanophore
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Let us all pray that God will heal the wounds in His Body.
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guanophore
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Rebellious subjects of the Roman Pontiff!
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PLeeD
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Thanks for the offer. Rest assured, you are not someone I put in the category I mentioned. I tend to agree with you on a lot of things political and cultural, and where I disagree with you I appreciate your reasonable tone.PLeeD:
I think this is true, but it is a very small minority. And I will offer, if you ever find this, PM me the post and I will take issue with it!
Yes, sorry for using that word. I apologized for it already and tried to explain myself more fully.PLeeD:
I would not use this term (silly) for it, but I do admit that my sensibilities are much more Eastern. I don’t feel a need, like the scholastics do, to define and explain so many Divine Mysteries.
I totally believe in the living praying for each other. I participate in that. It’s the imputed omnipresence and sheer logistics of prayer to the saints that I find unbelievable. There are a few weak scriptural references that are conveniently interpreted and offered as support, but they are… weak. I just don’t buy it, and don’t see myself ever buying it.PLeeD:
Have you never known a believer who was a prayer warrior? I have known believers all my life, Catholic and non, who were powerful prayer intecessors, and would go to them in a hot second to ask for intercession. I have never understood how this somehow could interfere with me going “directly”.
Why did Paul ask so many to pray for him? Surely he knew that he could go to God “directly”?
Hey, the question was asked, and I’m just answering it. This is my perspective for what little it’s worth. If I can’t sincerely accept this sort of thing, which Rome says I would have to accept, then I have no business in a Catholic church.
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PLeeD
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Like what?PLeeD:
I am interested to know more about this.
Best explanation I can give is this… I’ve been in a lot of protestant churches where it just seems dead. There is no joy. There is no power of the presence of the holy spirit in the air. It has all the signs of being a Christian church. I’m really not criticizing it. The gospel is preached. Worship songs are sang. It just seems lifeless and lacking joy. I’m sure for some people that is what they expect, and it works for them. That’s great, but I’ve seen what’s possible, and I can’t commit to being part of a place like that.
Sorry, but I get the same sort of vibe during the Catholic events I’ve been to. It’s more just going through the motions than a living and breathing worship of God in the presence of the Holy Spirit. Orthodox too for that matter… It’s so scripted. A billion people do church that way, and my criticisms mean nothing, except it’s my answer to the question posed in this thread. It’s why I go to the church I’m at now.
BTW, just to flesh it in a little more… I mean I have nothing against the Catholic church. A few years ago my son wanted to join the boy scouts. The closest troop was at the Catholic church around the corner, so I contacted them to sign him up. I know the scout master a bit because we used to work at the same place. Surprisingly, he initially encouraged me to find a non-catholic troop to join. I sort of stuck with it and my son joined the troop. I heard him pray the “Our Father” with the other scouts many times. That’s not something we do ordinarily. I have no problem with it.
My daughter converted to EO a few years ago while in college. I fully support her.
Lastly, I guess, the “mega” non-denominational church I go to shares property lines with the aforementioned catholic church. The churches cooperate and share resources with each other all the time. There is no competition. There is unity there and it’s great.
So, I would like to find a CCR event to go to sometime. I’m sure I’d feel right at home, except I couldn’t take communion.
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guanophore
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Are you implying that those who are in Christ are not “alive forevermore”?
There is no imputed “omnipresence” and I am glad that you find this unbelievable. Those who die in Christ have not become 'gods". I am not sure what you mean by “logistics”, but those who are in His presence and pray for us only hear and respond to what He allows them to hear and respond.
I see your point, of course. The church believes as she prays, and this she has done from the beginning. Since the Church preceded the Scriptures, we are not so concerned when there are “weak” references. The New Testament was never intended to be a full compendium of the faith.
One has to wonder, though, if it is good enough for Jesus, why would it not be good enough for us?
You are welcome in a Catholic Church always, even if you cannot embrace the Apostles’ creed.
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AugustTherese
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Yet, you confess to believe in the Dogma of the Trinity, a term in itself that is neither Biblical nor was used by Christ. "The Platonic term trias, from the word for three, was Latinized as trinitas - the latter giving us the English word ‘trinity’. Hmmmm…
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guanophore
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I felt this way too, and it is one of the reasons I left the faith into which I was baptized. I later realized that I was the one who was “dead” in not being aware or present to the power of the HS. I projected my state onto the congregation, imagining that they felt this way rather than me, and then to the CC in general. I was lifeless, and lacking in joy.
It was the CCR that brought me back home, and I experienced Mass and the Catholic parishioners quite differently!
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guanophore
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I dont’ think the Dogma of the Trinity can be defended as not “biblical” if this were the case, the Fathers would not have chosen the word to describe what Christians believed.
Was not Plato Greek? I don’t believe the dogma of the Trinity is a “Latinization”.
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AugustTherese
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Hence, why I said ‘a term in itself’. Please read carefully. God bless.
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guanophore
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Actually, you are mixing a couple of concepts. You reference the “Dogma of the Trinity”, which is an entire teaching and subject of a Council, and yet, state the “term” is not found in Scripture. The Dogma was developed in response to heresies and to clarify the teaching of the Church, a teaching that was held from the beginning. You make these statements in response to JonNC saying
I did read back through the posts, and I can’t figure out what you seem to be so touchy about, or what point it is you are trying to make. Perhaps this is just your way of criticizing Protestants?
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mcq72
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Yet isn’t it your own personal choice, opinion, even your own belief that Catholicism is best for you (and others) ?
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AugustTherese
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The term is not uttered by Christ nor found in Scripture. The TERM!
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SnowRose
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I think the part of Steido’s post that you posted was actually a quote from LostSheep, and that they don’t quite agree.
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mcq72
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thanks …fixed it
True. But I didn’t claim Christ used that terminology.
And as I told PLeeD, there’s nothing wrong with Transubstaniation as a reasonable human expression.
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MichaelP3
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Yup. It still comes down to faith at some point! No matter how many steps are attempted to be put in between!
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