Question For Protestants (if any are here)

[AugustTherese]

If we recognize that neither had any authority to determine canonicity, but only express opinion, then we are only talking about opinion.

Why would we ‘only’ do that? Why ignore the plain fact that Luther put inspired books into a non-inspired appendix?

I care. I care what John of Damascus thought, and Eusebius thought, what Jerome and Athanasius thought.

Knowing what the Church Fathers have thought drives what we know

Of course I care, I was speaking in hyperbole to illustrate the primacy that the Church has over individual opinions. Apparently, it is individual opinions that seem to matter more in your view, rather than Church authority?

 

[steido01]

I care. I care what John of Damascus thought, and Eusebius thought, what Jerome and Athanasius thought.

Knowing what the Church Fathers have thought drives what we know. It’s what the evangelicals miss.

I don’t mean to derail, but this is such an important point and I’m thankful you made it. The ‘Democracy of the Dead’ is part of what keeps Christianity -of each and every stripe- from becoming a ‘Tyranny of Today.’ In fact, I’d say it’s nothing short of Spirit-led. Consider the alternative:

Rejection of the ancients’ wisdom is rejection of those who lived closer to the Apostles – it’s tantamount to rejection of the Apostles themselves! Rejection of the diversity of the universe is a rejection of the Creator’s vision and a rejection of the sort of one-ness Christ desires for His People in favor of a sort congruent with base human desires. This leads to rejection of holiness in favor acceptable and even celebrated sin.

When a body is no longer one, holy, catholic nor apostolic, it ceases to be church. Any continued claims to that title are based on empty externals of habit, rite, place and titles – fiat.

While Christians of all denominations have been tempted to make sweeping, anachronistic ‘reinterpretations’ of history, we must not exclude the voices of the past, even when they err; that’s how we know not to repeat their errors. This starts by looking honestly at history, even and especially at “our” side, whichever it may be.

Thanks again.

 

[Brendan_64]

I was brought up in a strict Protestant background during the troubles in Northern Ireland…for a lot of people, changing would mean whole families cutting off contact or extreme violence

I grew up as a Catholic in Northern Ireland during the 1970s and 1980s, I understand where you are coming from with this. It is sad though, because the hatred that fueled things was (is) born of tribalism and not religion, although membership of your assigned tribe (which you do not choose yourself) meant membership (even if only token) of that tribe’s assigned faith.

As a member of the Nationalist tribe, you could become an atheist (so long as you were tribally Catholic) but not a Protestant. I guess it is the same on the other side. But should we let such bigotry (because that is what it is) determine how we live out what we see as our road to eternity?

 

[JonNC]

Why would we ‘only’ do that? Why ignore the plain fact that Luther put inspired books into a non-inspired appendix?

I never said ignore it. I said it was his opinion.

Of course I care, I was speaking in hyperbole to illustrate the primacy that the Church has over individual opinions. Apparently, it is individual opinions that seem to matter more in your view, rather than Church authority?

And your communion has its opinion, as do others.

 

[AugustTherese]

I never said ignore it. I said it was his opinion

It was his ‘opinion’ to remove books of the Bible into a non-inspired appendix? No! He actually did that.

And your communion has its opinion, as do others.

So, no one knows the One Truth? It is just a matter of opinion?

 

[steido01]

It was his ‘opinion’ to remove books of the Bible into a non-inspired appendix? No! He actually did that.

They were moved, not removed. Don’t contradict yourself.

Now, how does the saying go, again? When you point one finger at another… If you’re going to get all in a tizzy about where Deuterocanonnical books are physically placed in the volume, I can’t wait to see how upset you get over how Roman Catholic bibles have put even agreed-upon books in different orders! In English alone, compare the NAB to the RSV or the DR… and just wait until you see what happens in different languages!

 

[JonNC]

It was his ‘opinion’ to remove books of the Bible into a non-inspired appendix? No! He actually did that.

Then the DRV doesn’t have them. And the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize them.

So, no one knows the One Truth? It is just a matter of opinion?

So, where does Christ say salvation is determined by confessing the canon of scripture?

 

[JDMC]

Because we know that there is only one God. We know that only God can atone us of our sins, read the scriptures for yourself. Also know that God said call no man father, do not pray to statues, etc

 

[AugustTherese]

They were moved […]

…into a non-inspired appendix.

Don’t contradict yourself.

Self-indicative projection.

If you’re going to get all in a tizzy about where Deuterocanonnical books are physically placed in the volume, I can’t wait to see how upset you get over how Roman Catholic bibles have put even agreed-upon books in different orders!

You mean, Apocrypha? Playing coy might work with some people. Again, Luther did not merely ‘move’ some books around, reordering them for logistical purposes. He systematically took inspired books of the Bible and placed them into a historical, useful, non-inspired appendix. If using the word ‘move’ instead of ‘remove’ makes you feel better, go ahead; but, the fact remains that Luther took it upon himself to decide what is Scripture and what is not. I mean, he almost “threw Jimmy [book of Saint James] into the stove”.

In English alone, compare the NAB to the RSV or the DR… and just wait until you see what happens in different languages!

Does the word ‘alone’ magically appear in Romans 3:28?

 

[AugustTherese]

we know that there is only one God

Amen!

We know that only God can atone us of our sins

"Therefore, O king, may my advice be acceptable to you; atone for your sins by good deeds, and for your misdeeds by kindness to the poor; then your contentment will be long lasting.” Daniel 4:24 NABRE

I will presume your Bible does not have this verse in it. That is because portions of the books of Daniel and Esther are missing from Protestant ‘Bibles’.

Also know that God said call no man father

So, do not call our biological fathers, father or dad or papa?

do not pray to statues

Yes, do not do that.

 

[JonNC]

Because we know that there is only one God. We know that only God can atone us of our sins, read the scriptures for yourself. Also know that God said call no man father, do not pray to statues, etc

Amen, to all of this, but no one here, including Catholics, believe otherwise.

 

[JonNC]

Does the word ‘alone’ magically appear in Romans 3:28?

Did it disappear, magically, in English translations?

Self-indicative projection.

You mean, Apocrypha? Playing coy might work with some people.

I call them the DCs all the time.

Again, Luther did not merely ‘move’ some books around, reordering them for logistical purposes. He systematically took inspired books of the Bible and placed them into a historical, useful, non-inspired appendix.

Which reflected his opinion. Of course, that opinion was not new to the Church, nor was it prohibited. After all a Cardinal held and expressed the exact same opinion.

If using the word ‘move’ instead of ‘remove’ makes you feel better, go ahead; but, the fact remains that Luther took it upon himself to decide what is Scripture and what is not.

He took it upon himself to state his opinion.

And the double standard continues!

I mean, he almost “threw Jimmy [book of Saint James] in the stove”.

Please don’t. You said you were Lutheran, so I expect you know the context of the comment, but got the lurker:

“ďThat epistle of James gives us much trouble, for the papists embrace it alone and leave out all the rest. Up to this point I have been accustomed just to deal with and interpret it according to the sense of the rest of Scriptures. For you will judge that none of it must be set forth contrary to manifest Holy Scripture. Accordingly, if they will not admit my interpretations, then I shall make rubble also of it. I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove, as the priest in Kalenberg did.”Ē[86]

That’s the luther quote. The context:

“What Luther does point out is heavy Catholic reliance on James 2. It troubled him that this passage weighed so strongly in Catholic arguments against justification by faith alone. Interestingly, he says that he has previously interpreted it ďaccording to the sense of the rest of Scriptures.Ē Here we find that in practice, Luther admits to weighing it as Scripture. “

Continued

 

[JonNC]

“But what of the comment ďI feel like throwing Jimmy in the stoveĒ? What is not explicit in the context above is the historical background of Lutherís comment. The editors of Lutherís Works explain, ďThe preacher of Kalenberg, when visited by the duchess, heated the room with the wooden statues of the apostles. The statue of James was the last and as the preacher shoved it into the stove he exclaimed, ďNow bend over, Jimmy, you must go into the stove; no matter if you were the pope or all the bishops, the room must become warm.Ē[88]† Is Luther saying he wants to throw the Epistle of James in the stove? Possibly.[89] More likely, Lutherís comment is simply an expression of frustration, or perhaps dark humor. Luther does not explicitly say he wants to throw the book of James into the stove. Rather, he says he felt like doing what the priest in Kalenberg did, which would be throwing a statue of James into the stove.“. - James Swan

https://web.archive.org/web/20140803220107/http://tquid.sharpens.org/Luther_ canon.htm#b1

 

[AugustTherese]

Did it disappear, magically, in English translations?

Disappear from what? Luther’s translation is the only one that has the word ‘alone’ in Romans 3:28.

I call them the DCs all the time.

Okay. Does that make you feel better about Luther taking them out of the inspired canon?

Which reflected his opinion. Of course, that opinion was not new to the Church, nor was it prohibited. After all a Cardinal held and expressed the exact same opinion.

And, yet, that ‘Cardinal’ did not systematically put inspired books of Scripture into a non-inspired appendix. Does that not make sense to you? You keep reiterating this ‘opinion’ jargon as if that exonerates Luther’s tampering with Scripture. Is that to appease your conscience? Because, I still do not understand why you are spending so much effort at attempting to defend Luther’s actions.

He took it upon himself to state his opinion

Since when did ‘state his opinion’ equate to removing books of Scripture?

Please don’t. You said you were Lutheran, so I expect you know the context of the comment, but got the lurker:

“ďThat epistle of James gives us much trouble, for the papists embrace it alone and leave out all the rest. Up to this point I have been accustomed just to deal with and interpret it according to the sense of the rest of Scriptures. For you will judge that none of it must be set forth contrary to manifest Holy Scripture. Accordingly, if they will not admit my interpretations, then I shall make rubble also of it. I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove, as the priest in Kalenberg did.”Ē[86]

“Epistle of James…Scriptures…Holy Scripture…” Yeah, I’m sure he was talking about a statue of Saint James.

 

[MichaelP3]

Hi there

Have you watched the movie “Luther” by any chance? Some may argue the accuracy and being “on here” that’s a given but that may be a very good starting point for yourself…

 

[JonNC]

Disappear from what? Luther’s translation is the only one that has the word ‘alone’ in Romans 3:28.

Exactly. That’s because he translated into German. It isn’t needed in English.

Okay. Does that make you feel better about Luther taking them out of the inspired canon?

I sorry you don’t think them inspired anymore because of Luther. I don’t view it that way.

And, yet, that ‘Cardinal’ did not systematically put inspired books of Scripture into a non-inspired appendix. Does that not make sense to you?

Cajetan didn’t translate. If he had, he may have expressed his opinion in a similar way.

You keep reiterating this ‘opinion’ jargon as if that exonerates Luther’s tampering with Scripture. Is that to appease your conscience?

He himself said it was his own opinion.
My conscience? what does my conscience have to do with it?

Since when did ‘state his opinion’ equate to removing books of Scripture?

It doesn’t. That’s why I disagree with you that he removed them.

Because, I still do not understand why you are spending so much effort at attempting to defend Luther’s actions.

I’m just defending the facts of the matter.

Epistle of James…Scriptures…Holy Scripture…” Yeah, I’m sure he was talking about a statue of Saint James.

Think what you wish, but you have no more reason for your opinion than anyone else.

 

[AugustTherese]

That’s because he translated into German. It isn’t needed in English.

Why isn’t it needed in English? Why only German? Why is it not needed in Russian, Japanese, Arabic?

Cajetan didn’t translate. If he had, he may have expressed his opinion in a similar way.

What does that matter? So, considering Luther translated, did that gave him the authority to separate books of the Bible into non-inspired categories?

He himself said it was his own opinion

And, his opinion was brought to fruition by actually removing these books from the inspired canon into a non-inspired appendix.

Think what you wish, but you have no more reason for your opinion than anyone else

Do you support and/or practice theological and/or moral relativism?

 

[JonNC]

Why isn’t it needed in English? Why only German? Why is it not needed in Russian, Japanese, Arabic?

You’d have to read luther’s Open letter on translation. He explains it.

What does that matter? So, considering Luther translated, did that gave him the authority to separate books of the Bible into non-inspired categories?

He was permitted his opinion. Again, you considering them non-inspired because of Luther doesn’t matter.

And, his opinion was brought to fruition by actually removing these books from the inspired canon into a non-inspired appendix.

See above.

Do you support and/or practice theological and/or moral relativism?

How did you phrase it? What does it matter?

 

[AugustTherese]

You’d have to read luther’s Open letter on translation. He explains it

Sure he does…

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

You’d have to read luther’s Open letter on translation. He explains it

Sure he does…

Then you have your answer. Why are you asking me?