Question for Protestants- Receiving Christ?

[Cari]

Hello all!

I have a question for my Protestant brothers and sisters out there.

My four-year old daughter attends a BSF International class with her grandmother every week. She’s been attending since she was two, and although I know there is controversy about whether Catholics should attend “non-denominational” bible studies, I’ve let her go, mostly out of respect to my mother-in-law, who isn’t Catholic.

Most of the time, what she brings home is fine with us, doctrine-wise. However, I have a question about this week’s send home.

It reads: “Even though your daughter has not yet received Christ as Savior, she nevertheless can be preparing now to serve Him in the future.”

The second part, about prepping children from the earliest age to serve Our Lord, I like. However, it’s the first part I base my question on.

What does it mean that my daughter hasn’t “received Christ” yet? As a Catholic, I would assume it meant she hasn’t taken First Communion yet, where she receives Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord, but I’m not thinking that’s what BSF means. I’ve taught her that she received Christ, along with the Holy Spirit and God the Father, at baptism, and that Jesus lives in her heart, just like he lives in the Tabernacle at church.

Is the BSF literature perhaps meaning she hasn’t said the “Jesus prayer” and said the words, “Jesus, I accept you as my personal Lord and Savior”? Could it mean something else?

I ask this for no other reason than I’d like to discuss it with her, but am unsure what the program taught her about this topic. Knowing that this is a Protestant bible study, I thought someone on this forum could help me out.

Thanks for much for your insights!
Cari

 

[jmcrae]

Cari;

I’m assuming it means that your daughter has not yet made an “Altar Call” or prayed the Sinner’s Prayer.

I would expect them to encourage her to do this as soon as they think she is “of age” - as her mother, it’s up to you whether to allow this or not, while keeping in mind that this is what we would term the Entrance Rite into a particular Protestant religion.

Obviously, if your daughter gets talked into doing this, she will not be consciously renouncing the Catholic faith, but it’s something to watch out for. When (if) it happens, it will happen in a matter of split seconds - Protestants don’t have any formal training programs for their membership rites - they don’t even really think of them in those terms. She will simply be asked one day whether she wants to “accept Jesus,” and if she says “yes,” (and no doubt her grandmother will encourage her to say “yes”) it will happen right at that very moment.

There is probably no danger of this quite yet, but when she begins to argue her point of view coherently and in complete sentences, you might like to find an alternative activity for her to do.

Remember, your daughter already has Jesus. He came into her heart when she was baptized.

 

[Syele]

By “receiving Christ” they mean making a personal decision to be a Christian for her entire life. While we as parents plan to teach our Children about God and how to live as a Christian there is a point in everyone’s life where they decide for themselves that following God is the correct thing to do and make it public. Protestants do so when they say the “Sinners prayer” and truly mean it. The sinner’s prayer “should be” a public declaration that one is now a Christian as well as a personal commitment to be one.

If I were in your shoes I would tell them she has done this when she is confirmed.

 

[Syele]

How could a Catholic saying the sinner’s prayer be renouncing your faith? I’m pretty sure you say something similar in mass every week?

Typical sinners prayer:
“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.”

 

[LilyM]

How could a Catholic saying the sinner’s prayer be renouncing your faith? I’m pretty sure you say something similar in mass every week?

Typical sinners prayer:
“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.”

We do say the Confiteor (I confess) … difference being saying so at Mass isn’t considered to make one Catholic. No Catholic would consider anyone of another denomination who came to Mass and said it to have converted to Catholicism.

If by getting up and saying this prayer in a church of another denomination the members of that denomination would consider the person (child) no longer Catholic, then the child can’t do it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

How could a Catholic saying the sinner’s prayer be renouncing your faith? I’m pretty sure you say something similar in mass every week?

Typical sinners prayer:
“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.”

We do.

This is our prayer.

Option A:

All: I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.

All: Amen.

or.

Option B:
Priest: Lord, we have sinned against you:
Lord, have mercy.

All: Lord, have mercy.

Priest: Lord, show us your mercy and love.

All: And grant us your salvation.

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.

All: Amen.
Option C: [The following or other invocations may be spoken by the priest or another minister, but the priest always gives the final blessing.]
Minister: You raise the dead to life in the Spirit: Lord, have mercy.
All: Lord, have mercy.

Minister: You bring pardon and peace to the sinner: Christ, have mercy.
All: Christ, have mercy.

Minister: You bring light to those in darkness: Lord, have mercy.
All: Lord, have mercy.

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.
All: Amen.

 

[Syele]

We do say the Confiteor (I confess) … difference being saying so at Mass isn’t considered to make one Catholic. No Catholic would consider anyone of another denomination who came to Mass and said it to have converted to Catholicism.

If by getting up and saying this prayer in a church of another denomination the members of that denomination would consider the person (child) no longer Catholic, then the child can’t do it.

I have never heard of it making someone “not Catholic” only that it makes them Christians… because what non-Christian would say it and mean it?

The rite to Church membership is different BTW, Every church I ever attended Church membership might include a requirement that you be Christian but none I know of make it automatic because they said the sinners prayer.

 

[Cari]

Thanks everyone! I was raised Presbyterian, and we never used language like the BSF has (of course, that’s not shocking, the church I attended as a child could go whole weeks without even mentioning Jesus, but that’s neither the fault of Presbyterianism as a whole, nor the topic for this thread).

One question that I do have, another poster mentioned an “Altar Call”. I’ve heard this phrase before, but am unclear as to what it is. I’m fairly sure I don’t have to worry about the 4 year old class being expected to make one, right?

So would I be correct in summarizing it like this:
Receiving Christ as one’s Savior is to make the concious, public decision to live one’s life as a Christian. It is sort of like Confirmation (concious, public entrance into the Church), assuming that the one being confirmed has a clear, active grasp on the Catechism, accepting and understanding all the the Magisterium teaches (having the tools required to live one’s life as a Christian).

Would this be accurate? Sorry, just trying to “translate” the BSF language into Catholic language.

Cheers,
Cari

 

[Syele]

One question that I do have, another poster mentioned an “Altar Call”. I’ve heard this phrase before, but am unclear as to what it is. I’m fairly sure I don’t have to worry about the 4 year old class being expected to make one, right?

Alter calls can happen at most services. It’s actually a time to respond in prayer. For example, Say I attend a service focused on Scripture that says we should all love our neighbors as ourselves. During that time I believe God has shown me I have NOT been loving my neighbor as myself. I want to confess that sin so then during the alter call I would have the opportunity to go up to the alter and pray with a pastor or Prayer team member about this, confess my sin and spend some time quietly before God.

The 2nd type is basically the same thing but is specifically towards those who are not already Christians. Most non-protestants think of this type only when they use the term. Some Baptists, for example ALWAYS have an alter call at the end of each service that focuses on giving non-Christians an opportunity to go up and say the sinners prayer for the first time, or to re-dedicate their lives to God (if they have left and are returning to the Church.) Some churches rarely have the second type, it varies a lot from church to church.

Any church that gave anyone a hard time for not going up to any type of alter call IMO is clearly out of line. It’s like saying, “We are going to watch and see if you are in the confession booth long enough!”

So would I be correct in summarizing it like this:
Receiving Christ as one’s Savior is to make the conscious, public decision to live one’s life as a Christian. It is sort of like Confirmation (conscious, public entrance into the Church), assuming that the one being confirmed has a clear, active grasp on the Catechism, accepting and understanding all the the Magisterium teaches (having the tools required to live one’s life as a Christian).

Would this be accurate? Sorry, just trying to “translate” the BSF language into Catholic language.

Cheers,
Cari

Sounds accurate to me.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hi protestant here

First off its not a membership thing to say the sinners prayer. It only gets one acknowledging God.Which alot of people do not do.

Basically its 2 different things.

Just to keep it straight. When there is a sermon for example, and a alter call its just like said a open invitation to come forward publically to respond to possibly several things. You could need prayer and ask the Pastor or someone to pray with or for you. It could be a problem or sin you are struggling with. You could see someone go forward and go with them to pray for them. And you may have never thought of God other than this “concept” and now see Jesus for who He is. All these things and more can be part of a Alter Call.

The sinners prayer is just a formal way of recognising that you might not be that great person you thought you were, and that there is indeed a Holy God, who actually exists outside of Hollywood and Christmas, who really can change you if you let Him. And He is real, more than worthy of your worship and more than anything else you would want to serve Him.

The Pastor who married us "decided: made a formal decision at age 8 to follow Christ. Young children can understand God just fine, after all we are to be child like. But not all do, and sometimes while they sorta get it they really dont til later in life.

I suspect when they said your child hasnt recieved Christ. I imagine perhaps they asked her and she didnt get them because they didnt say it the way you say it. So she may of said no or didnt understand. OR they didnt ask her because they dont want to push. And they are waiting for her to bring it up. Generally teachers just try to show the life, love times of Jesus and keep things geared for young minds.

You should speak to the teachers and get them to explain why how they came to write the note to you. Then you will know their thinking. Not Grandma she will tell you what I did, only the teachers or whoever wrote the note know for sure.

Then you can tell them NOT to confuse her by telling her she doesnt have Jesus. That will put you and grandma at odds which beyond anything you dont want, it will mess her young mind up… Assume by her accepting what youve told her that Jesus is with her, that she has accepted Him. Which she has, otherwise she would have argued with you about it, right?

Hope some of this is helpful. So many kids get pulled around and Id fear something natural like loving Jesus can be shown to her to be a big fight.

 

[jmcrae]

How could a Catholic saying the sinner’s prayer be renouncing your faith? I’m pretty sure you say something similar in mass every week?

Typical sinners prayer:
“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.”

It’s not the words of the prayer (which are wonderful - I use similar words in my Act of Contrition when I go to Confession) but just the idea that she wasn’t a Christian before (because she was Catholic), and now she is, and the expectation of following that up with the “fruits” of attending their church on Sundays, and participating in their activities.

(I once accidentally joined an Evangelical Church in much the same way - I didn’t realize that the Altar Call, etc. meant that I was joining their church until I started getting a lot of letters and phone calls from them, wondering where I was on Sundays.)

 

[Syele]

It’s not the words of the prayer (which are wonderful - I use similar words in my Act of Contrition when I go to Confession) but just the idea that she wasn’t a Christian before (because she was Catholic), and now she is, and the expectation of following that up with the “fruits” of attending their church on Sundays, and participating in their activities.

(I once accidentally joined an Evangelical Church in much the same way - I didn’t realize that the Altar Call, etc. meant that I was joining their church until I started getting a lot of letters and phone calls from them, wondering where I was on Sundays.)

It doesn’t make someone a member to make an alter call. However when someone does say the sinners prayer it is considered VERY important to be sure that they are instructed in Christianity and understand all that following God entails…Much like Catholics have Catechism First, Protestant “Follow-up.” It sounds like those people were following up with you because you prayed the sinner’s prayer and they didn’t want you to give up on your decision. This is why I recommended that the OP tell the Protestant church that her child has already done this when she is confirmed, and say she is not ready before that. This way it would be done in her home Catholic Parish. Also, they might have assumed you were planning to attend church there, the majority of people who respond to such alter calls DO continue to attend the church they started at, it doesn’t make them a member, it only is the most common outcome.

As far as the child attending their activities, she already does this. Also because it is a child we are talking about, I doubt even more that it would be considered membership.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Cari,
Is this Bible Study Fellowship International the group you are talking about?

They don’t really disclose much about themselves on their website, but I was able to check out a few of the board members who direct BSF International. They are definitely “evangelical” – that word is used so much by everyone it almost has no meaning any more. In this case those who I was able to research would be of the opinion that personal salvation is something that happens when one makes a personal statement of faith in Jesus Christ, not when one is made for them by another as would happen in infant baptism. Often individual who feel so persuaded will try to encourage others to make the professing statement. The degree of “pushing” will very greatly from one person to the next based not so much on theology but people skills (or lack thereof) masquerading as theology.

Interesting those board members that I was able to track belong to churches that themselves practice infant baptism.

My guess at to what is going on is probably best stated by one of their respective statements of faith, which includes the following line: “The believer, having turned to God in penitent faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, is accountable to God for living a life separated from sin and characterized by the fruit of the Spirit. It is his responsibility to contribute by word and deed to the universal spread of the Gospel.” They want to see this become true in your daughter’s life. Apparently for this particular group’s leader the lithmus test is in some sort of personal response that the leader can identify with. So, in the end, this really isn’t about your daughter as much as it is about the leader’s anxiety over the salvation of your daughter.

Personally, I would recommend putting the question you have asked here to the leader of the study your daughter is involved in. That will help you to determine whether or not this is something you can simply prepare your daughter to understand by speaking with her about it in your home, or if perhaps it is not some place you want your daughter to continue attending.

Be advised, that what you are experiencing here is true of many protestant groups, but by no means all. Indeed some would be exactly in line with what you would teach in The Catholic Church regarding her receiving Christ at the time of her baptism. Others see baptism as an initiation into the family of God, but not a personal relationship with Christ. And some see that whatever happened in baptism needs to be confirmed by the individual later in life for themselves – often at the time of confirmation, but for others it might be completely independent of that.

The statement was made by one previous poster:

When (if) it happens, it will happen in a matter of split seconds - Protestants don’t have any formal training programs for their membership rites - they don’t even really think of them in those terms.

This is true for some protestant groups, and completely false with regard to others. It really depends on the Protestant group you are speaking of. I am not familiar with BSF myself, so I cannot help you any more with them specifically. Thus the best I could do is speak to you in broad commonalities. Generalizations that may not be true to your daughter’s particular situation.

Unless someone here knows them from first hand experience, I would suggest that you talk with them one-on-one if you are seeking the truth, because there is just that much variety within Protestant groups on this matter than no one person’s experience is really going to be informative with regard to what your daughter is likely to experience.

 

[Rawb]

It doesn’t make someone a member to make an alter call.

Not in some churches, but in others it does. I have been a part of churches who believed that after you made a conversion altar call, you were a member of that church. Maybe your church, or others in your area don’t believe this, but other do, so to the OP I would definitally recommend finding out from the BSF’s leader.

Syele’s description of the two altar calls is accurate, from my experience. It’ll either be because someone needs prayer with something or because the person is making a choice to be a Christian (or is coming back to Christianity). Generally this will happen at the end of a service, the pastor will stand up on the stage (the ‘altar’) and say something along the lines of “I know we all have many issues and problems, and maybe tonight you’ve heard the voice of Jesus speaking to you. I don’t know where you are in your life but He does, and He loves you. So we’d like to offer you a chance to meet Him tonight. We’ve got some people down here by the altar and if you’ve felt that call, if you want Jesus, then we invite you to come on down here and pray.”

They may offer you a Bible, may take you to a class right after, etc. These sorts of things oftentimes happen right after a retreat. I participated in one at a Crusade of Billy Graham (or his son, I don’t know, I was young) and at a Bible Camp, and at church a few times, and at a Youth Group. In my experience, the pressure to go up was intense (not from what the pastor had said, or people around me, just the feeling) and the first two or three times I did this I definitally didn’t know what I was doing. There’s also quite a bit of praise of those who ‘get saved’ (and that’s understandable, as in these people’s minds that person just committed their life to Christ)

assuming that the one being confirmed has a clear, active grasp on the Catechism, accepting and understanding all the the Magisterium teaches (having the tools required to live one’s life as a Christian).

For an altar call it’s more like the reverse. You’ll ‘get saved’ through the sinner’s prayer, and then be taught more fully what it means to be a Christian. The Catechism and Magesterium won’t be mentioned as this is a protestant church, but there might be Bible study afterwards, or they may recieve a book helping them to live as a Christian. None of these however will advocate obediance to the Magesterium or Church, and will emphasize Bible study and finding a “Bible Believing Church”

 

[Anglo-catholic]

As an ex-Roman Catholic (RC) - now Anglican I can’t see any reason why the little girl cannot answer that she has received Christ as her personal Savior - this is not in conflict with being a RC. Although at her age the issue is more the acceptance/ reliance on/ surrender to Jesus than the issue of repentance.

And her parents should instruct her as to what this means in RC terms. This would be a great witness to the rest of the Protestant group.

I have never defended the RC church (correcting misconceptions about RC beliefs) more than since I left it. Many Protestants do not believe that Catholics are Christians!! (Just think when they remember this little RC girl they met in their Bible class) - and that memory of a four year old girl leading someone to a correct understanding / investigation of the RC Church!!

I love to remind my study group that their King James Bible is Anglican.

God bless!

 

[Cari]

Thanks again, all!
My biggest frustration with the Bible Study Fellowship Program is what another poster mentioned- namely, their lack of openess about their organization. When it was time to re-enroll my daughter at the start of this year, I tried to track down some information about the scope and focus of the program, at least for the little kids, and got nowhere.

My mother-in-law is pretty aggressively anti-Catholic, and so any questions I would pose to her about the nature of the curriculum would be met with severe agression on her part. Not that that’s grounds for avoiding it, only that talking to her would get me no answers- just a lot of drama .I do know that the program doesn’t have the kids attend a church service, as it’s currently being held in a Pentecostal church, yet Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, et. all. attend the study. I’m not so worried about an altar call as I am about potentialy confusing my poor kid into thinking Jesus doesn’t live in her heart yet.

But thanks to your suggestions I have some grasp of where they’re going with the “receiving Jesus” thing, so I can talk to her about it in terms of Catholicism.

I’d already made up my mind that this was the last year I was going to let my girl go, and thankfully, my in-law is moving out of state by the time the program starts up next year, so we won’t even have to have the “I don’t want my daughter going” battle.

Cheers,
Cari

 

[MariaG]

Thanks again, all!
My biggest frustration with the Bible Study Fellowship Program is what another poster mentioned- namely, their lack of openess about their organization. When it was time to re-enroll my daughter at the start of this year, I tried to track down some information about the scope and focus of the program, at least for the little kids, and got nowhere.

My mother-in-law is pretty aggressively anti-Catholic, and so any questions I would pose to her about the nature of the curriculum would be met with severe agression on her part. Not that that’s grounds for avoiding it, only that talking to her would get me no answers- just a lot of drama .I do know that the program doesn’t have the kids attend a church service, as it’s currently being held in a Pentecostal church, yet Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, et. all. attend the study. I’m not so worried about an altar call as I am about potentialy confusing my poor kid into thinking Jesus doesn’t live in her heart yet.

But thanks to your suggestions I have some grasp of where they’re going with the “receiving Jesus” thing, so I can talk to her about it in terms of Catholicism.

I’d already made up my mind that this was the last year I was going to let my girl go, and thankfully, my in-law is moving out of state by the time the program starts up next year, so we won’t even have to have the “I don’t want my daughter going” battle.

Cheers,
Cari

Good plan. At your daughter’s young age, things are still pretty basic and it would be hard to confuse her too much, but I was going to tell you that I really would not recommend it for too long. Glad to hear you have already made that decision:thumbsup:

And it is a fairly easy explanation about Jesus living in her heart. Since we believe that Christ does live in her since her baptism, but most of the kids she is with have not been baptized, you can explain that to her, and tell her if anyone asks if she has or wants to accept Jesus into her heart, she can say “I already have!” Without getting into specifics of when

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Syele]

I’m not so worried about an altar call as I am about potentialy confusing my poor kid into thinking Jesus doesn’t live in her heart yet.

Tell her that He does live in her heart and that if they ask, she can say yes He does. I don’t know of anyone who would tell a 4yo they were wrong about that.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I’m not so worried about an altar call as I am about potentialy confusing my poor kid into thinking Jesus doesn’t live in her heart yet.

But thanks to your suggestions I have some grasp of where they’re going with the “receiving Jesus” thing, so I can talk to her about it in terms of Catholicism.

Cari,

For the focus you are most concerned about, you might get some help from those good old heretics, the Lutherans.

Though I’m a United Methodist pastor, I worked for the Lutherans (ELCA) for 4 years. And among the things I learned are that they have the very same issues you are concerned about with respect to how some other Protestants approach “being saved”. They’ve come up with some pretty good answers too, like:

If someone asks, “Have you found Jesus?” Answer, “No, Jesus found me.”

If asked, “When were you saved?” Answer, “Two thousand years ago when Jesus died on the Cross.”

If asked, “Do you know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?” Answer, “I don’t even know what all those terms mean. But I know that Jesus lives in my heart.”

Maybe that will help you.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Even though I run in protestant circles I really dont like the term have you found Jesus, I always think was He lost?

I like what you said about Jesus found me. I read this book lately and the author said we dont find Jesus or bring Him to the city. He was always there, we just finally noticed the place was Holy.