Question for Protestants:Sword of Simeon

[Daniel_Marsh]

1. (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

[Yea, and a sword shall pierce through thine own soul also.] Thy soul, i.e. thy life. It is a prediction that the blessed Virgin should suffer martyrdom: “This child of thine shall be set for a sign, which shall be spoken against; neither shalt thou escape in the contradiction that shall be given him, for thou shalt die by the sword.” Epiphanius gives some countenance to this exposition.

“Whether the holy Virgin died and was buried, her death was crowned with infinite honour; she made a most chaste end, and the crown of her virginity was given her: or whether she was put to death (as is written, ‘A sword shall pass through thine own soul’), she is possessed of glory and a crown amongst the martyrs.”

philologos.org/__eb-jl/luke02.htm

But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried … Scripture is absolutely silent [on the end of Mary] … For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence … The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left [this matter] uncertain … Did she die, we do not know … Either the holy Virgin died and was buried … Or she was killed … Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’ (Epiphanius, Panarion, Haer. 78.10-11, 23. Cited by juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. II (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), pp. 139-40).

christiantruth.com/assumption.html

The Fathers of the Church, who had no doubts in this regard, reasoned along these lines. One need only quote St Jacob of Sarug (d. 521), who wrote that when the time came for Mary “to walk on the way of all generations”, the way, that is, of death, “the group of the Twelve Apostles” gathered to bury “the virginal body of the Blessed One” (Discourse on the burial of the Holy Mother of God, 87-99 in C. Vona, Lateranum 19 [1953], 188). St Modestus of Jerusalem (d. 634), after a lengthy discussion of “the most blessed dormition of the most glorious Mother of God”, ends his eulogy by exalting the miraculous intervention of Christ who “raised her from the tomb”, to take her up with him in glory (Enc. in dormitionem Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae, nn. 7 and 14: PG 86 bis, 3293; 3311). St John Damascene (d. 704) for his part asks: “Why is it that she who in giving birth surpassed all the limits of nature should now bend to its laws, and her immaculate body be subjected to death?”. And he answers: “To be clothed in immortality, it is of course necessary that the mortal part be shed, since even the master of nature did not refuse the experience of death. Indeed, he died according to the flesh and by dying destroyed death; on corruption he bestowed incorruption and made death the source of resurrection” (Panegyric on the Dormition of the Mother of God, n. 10: SC 80, 107).

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm53.htm

 

[Benadam]

SolaChristo:

He was bruised for our transgressions, He was wounded for our inequities, the chastisement needfull for us to obtain peace and well being was laid upon Him, by His stripes we are healed and made whole. Praise God!!! Thank You Jesus. It is your sufferings and death that has saved us. For it is by You and You alone that we are saved.

we have to remember that heaven is structured on the bonds between persons. The Father’s bond with His Son. The bonds that unite God. The bonds that unite humanity to God are intimitaely woven into the bond shared between Mary and Jesus. This is a kind of primacy of bond that gives Mary her unique place in salvation history. Her experience at the cross cannot be compared to ‘any’ mothers experience of suffering on witnessing a child’s death. She experienced an intimate bond with God that no other human can claim. I believe this is what Simeon was refering to.

 

[SolaChristo]

Benadam:

we have to remember that heaven is structured on the bonds between persons. The Father’s bond with His Son. The bonds that unite God. The bonds that unite humanity to God are intimitaely woven into the bond shared between Mary and Jesus. This is a kind of primacy of bond that gives Mary her unique place in salvation history. Her experience at the cross cannot be compared to ‘any’ mothers experience of suffering on witnessing a child’s death. She experienced an intimate bond with God that no other human can claim. I believe this is what Simeon was refering to.

But the question remains was it the suffering and death of Christ that exposes the thoughts of mens hearts or is it Marys experience that exposes these thoughts?

 

[Richard_Hurtz]

Thal59:

I am interested in hearing how the Protestants here would explain Luke 2:35 when Simeon tells Mary that:

“And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

This is a biblical prophesy, so I assume its fulfillment would have to be contained in the bible. How would you interpret this, and do you have any scriptural support for your interpretation?

Thal59

I don’t think that you’re giving enough context here.

You should include verse 34 at a minimum:

34And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed–35and a sword will pierce even your own soul–to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.” (NASB)

The thoughts from many hearts are revealed through “this Child”, not the piercing of Mary’s soul.

Verse 34 is an echo of Isaiah 8:14 -
“Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.”

The first part of verse 35 is like an aside to Mary in essence saying to her “Your son will reveal the true hearts of those in Israel and you too will have your soul pierced as with a sword.”

It is Jesus Christ that reveals the true heart not Mary.

Blessings,
Richard

 

[Benadam]

SolaChristo:

But the question remains was it the suffering and death of Christ that exposes the thoughts of mens hearts or is it Marys experience that exposes these thoughts?

of course the source is of Jesus and it is His work that is primary. Maybe a study of the place that is given to all firsts in salvation history is required to understand this prophecy. Maybe that is a subject for another thread. I suggest that Mary is revealed as a first in this passage and all that entails. There is only one ‘first’. Jesus Himself is a ‘first’

 

[Thal59]

Richard_Hurtz:

I don’t think that you’re giving enough context here.

You should include verse 34 at a minimum:

34And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed–35and a sword will pierce even your own soul–to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.” (NASB)

The thoughts from many hearts are revealed through “this Child”, not the piercing of Mary’s soul.

Verse 34 is an echo of Isaiah 8:14 -
“Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.”

The first part of verse 35 is like an aside to Mary in essence saying to her "Your son will reveal the true hearts of those in Israel and you too will have your soul pierced as with a sword."

It is Jesus Christ that reveals the true heart not Mary.

Blessings,
Richard

Richard, you have done a beautiful job of twisting around what scriptures say.There is nothing in the passage that refers to revealing “true hearts.” Let me cut and paste something that I provided earlier…

Douey-Rheims
“And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts thoughts may be revealed.”

King James (1610)
“Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

Latin Vulgate
et tuam ipsius animam pertransiet gladius (sword) ut revelentur ex multis cordibus (hearts) cogitationes (thoughts; as in cogitate)

Byzantine Majority Greek
kai sou de autês tên psuchên dieleusetai romphaia (sword) opôs an apokaluphthôsin ek pollôn kardiôn (hearts) dialogismoi.

Here are four examples of what the passage says. Let’s take the KJV…

“Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

Now, correct my English if I am wrong, but the expression “that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed” indicates the result and/or purpose of the piercing of the soul by the sword. This is a straightforward cause and effect statement.

It is mind-boggling to me that a number of people on this thread cannot keep the expression in the order it has been in for 2,000 years!

The Catholics are giving me some possible explanations, but they are a bit of a reach; easy to refute if one has a mind to. The Protestants keep snipping the “effect” of the piercing of Mary’s soul and applying it to Jesus in the previous verse in an obvious attempt to take something away from Mary.

While a few posts have offered some bits of useful information, it is obvious I won’t find an answer here. I guess I’ll look elsewhere.

Thal59

 

[Benadam]

SolaChristo:

But the question remains was it the suffering and death of Christ that exposes the thoughts of mens hearts or is it Marys experience that exposes these thoughts?

It is a given that these thoughts are already exposed to Jesus in that the gospels say he knew what was in men’s hearts and also because He is Divine. What is known already by Jesus will be exposed to many through Mary is my take on it.

 

[CindyGia]

Not knowing how else to reply to this thread, since I am Catholic, I will say this:
Despite the fact that Protestants will always “deny” Mary the respect and veneration She deserves as the Mother Of God and our spiritual Mother, Mary is the powerful “right-hand” of Her Son, Who IS God. Mary is the terrorizing threat and enemy of Satan! To think that God called upon a little tiny Jewish woman to bear the God-Man - shook Satan right down to his hooves! Mary stood firm with humility, meekness and forgiveness - which serves as the terror of Satan - while Her Son was tortured and crucified! This is the Grace that Mary is “full of,” and “Hailed” by the Angel Gabriel! Mary is “full of” everything that IS God, and because of it - is the TERROR of the Devil!

This is why Mary is the Woman clothed with the Sun with twelve stars upon Her head! Mary is the “Moon” which reflects the golden Divinity and Love of the Son (Sun) and holds this Divinity in Her own Womb! She is the “Golden Ark of the New Covenant!” Mary is more powerful (in Heaven and on earth) than what any of us mere mortals could ever fathom! God has given Her a very special place in His Heart and in Heaven and on earth! She IS the direct “link” to the Divinity and the Trinity! Why Protestants, and sadly many Catholics I now see, refuse to see this or believe it is horrific to even think!

The most poignant verses regarding our Blessed Mother are in the beautiful and hypnotic verses of Psalm 45 which tells us exactly “Who” Mary is, to which Protestants and many Catholics themselves - refuse to accept or even take notice of:

Psalm 45:10 - a princess arrayed in Ophir’s gold comes to stand at your right hand.
11 Listen, my daughter, and understand; pay me careful heed. Forget your people and your father’s house,
12 that the king might desire your beauty. He is your lord;
13 honor him, daughter of Tyre. Then the richest of the people will seek your favor with gifts.
14 All glorious is the king’s daughter as she enters, her raiment threaded with gold;
15 In embroidered apparel she is led to the king. The maids of her train are presented to the king.
16 They are led in with glad and joyous acclaim; they enter the palace of the king.
17 The throne of your fathers your sons will have; you shall make them princes through all the land.
18 I will make your name renowned through all generations; thus nations shall praise you forever.

Do you not see? Do you not see? Mary is the “Daughter” of God! She is the Mother of the Son, and She is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit! Again I will say as I have said once before on this site - “What is wrong with you people?!!!”

As far as what you have discovered “Thai59” regarding the corruption of the versus, I am saddened by this discovery. But what can we do about it? Do we call the Vatican about it? Do we send letters to the Pope? It’s almost as if our hands are tied concerning the matter. It’s very sad and I applaud you in noticing such errors like this. I would have never even taken notice my whole life if you hadn’t pointed this out. I suppose though, in reading Scripture, alot of what we comprehend will come from the Holy Spirit, whether the verses are corrupt or not! I truly do not think that God would allow His Book to become so corrupt that it will ultimately wind up being a biased fictional book written by man. I trust in God till death on this one!

God Bless you all and "Hail Mary, full of Grace!"