Question for Protestants?

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Jesus clearly left us with a teaching church (hence the magisterial office) and it was in existence for over a decade before any books of the New Testament were written, which means that Jesus’ church was being infallibly guided by God. When did God stop infallibly guiding His church, and shift the emphasis to scripture alone? I could not answer this question, as a former SS advocate.
Again, you are begging the question; which is a rhetorical way of trying to make a point without proving it. You would first have to prove that God was going to basically force infallibility (and yes, impeccability) on the humans of the early churches; there’s no evidence for that, in fact, we see the opposite in scripture.
 
Peter did not use his authority to declare an official doctrine, (as the church did in Acts 15) binding on the whole church, in this passage. He had a moment of weakness. Now, if he would have officially defined it and promulgated it, like the Pope/Ecumenical Council did with the IC, then you would have a great point. 🙂
The Holy Spirit never has a moment of weakness; He is infallible always, is impeccable always. He was promised to every single believer, and He is responsible for teaching, leading, and guiding infallibly all the time. Peter proved through action that he was neither infallible nor impeccable. In short, I believe on of the greatest ways we are taught are through action; just look at Christ. Christ was infallible and showed us exactly what that looked like. I don’t buy how the RCC defines infallibility for it’s “vicars of Christ.” The evidence in scripture is against that teaching. Paul certainly saw that Peter was teaching falsely by his actions, which is why he corrected Peter so forcefully.
 
Jesus clearly left us with a teaching church (hence the magisterial office) and it was in existence for over a decade before any books of the New Testament were written, which means that Jesus’ church was being infallibly guided by God. When did God stop infallibly guiding His church, and shift the emphasis to scripture alone? I could not answer this question, as a former SS advocate. Please keep the discussion light and breezy…
I don’t think He ever stopped. However, I think some people didn’t like what He said through the Church. And that was on day one, when He chose Peter to head the Church. 🙂
 
Agree. I dont think the post of mine that you responded to allowed for a third choice. But two choices remains a choice.

Jon
But not an opened ended number of choices. Opinion on a matter of seconds vs. personally interpreting what Jesus meant then creating a new church to suit your desire to devorce, marry someone of the same sex or be Once Saved. There’s a big difference.
 
But not an opened ended number of choices. Opinion on a matter of seconds vs. personally interpreting what Jesus meant then creating a new church to suit your desire to devorce, marry someone of the same sex or be Once Saved. There’s a big difference.
It depends on what. Communion sets as doctrine. To be sure, there are some that lack set doctrines. Others do. As a Lutheran, I know that the real presence, for example, is not subject to interpretation.

There’ a big difference between that and the example you provided. That said, it is more disconcerting to me when a communion actually jettisons sola scriptura so they
can approve things like same gender marriages. 😊

Jon
 
From the Mr. Staples’ column:
Sola Scriptura was the central doctrine and foundation for all I believed when I was Protestant. On a popular level, it simply meant, “If a teaching isn’t explicit in the Bible, then we don’t accept it as doctrine!” And it seemed so simple. Unassailable. And yet, I do not recall ever hearing a detailed teaching explicating it. It was always a given. Unchallenged. Diving deeper into its meaning, especially when I was challenged to defend my Protestant faith against Catholicism, I found there to be no book specifically on the topic and no uniform understanding of this teaching among Protestant pastors.
Mr. Staple is wrong, that there is no explication of the practice of sola scriptura, as I’ve posted it here often. From the Epitome of the Formula of Concord:
  1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.
2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.
3] 2. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.
Interestingly, it sounds nothing like what Mr. Staples renders as his experience as a “protestant”. So, for one to completely understand his experience, one needs to know what communion he was a member of. I’m sure he’s revealed that, but I simply do not know what it as.

Among Lutheran pastors, even from varying synods, there is indeed a uniform understanding. So, when he says there is no uniform understanding among “protestant” pastors, one again needs to know from what specific communions they were.

Again, from the column:
Once I got past the superficial, I had to try to answer real questions like, what role does tradition play? How explicit does a doctrine have to be in Scripture before it can be called doctrine? How many times does it have to be mentioned in Scripture before it would be dogmatic? Where does Scripture tell us what is absolutely essential for us to believe as Christians? How do we know what the canon of Scripture is using the principle of sola scriptura? Who is authorized to write Scripture in the first place? When was the canon closed? Or, the best question of all: where is sola scriptura taught in the Bible? These questions and more were left virtually unanswered or left to the varying opinions of various Bible teachers.
For almost all, these are the wrong questions. From the Lutheran perspective, it is in fact the Church that uses and employs the practice of sola scriptura. As for where the practice is taught, no where explicitly, though it can be inferred, not in opposition to the teaching role of the Church, but as a method for the Church to use.
As for the canon, it has been historically practiced in the Church that different communions, different sees and patriarchs, have had and continue to have variances in canonical books.
If Mr. Staples received different answers to these questions, he probably was asking pastors from different communions. If so, it shouldn’t have been a surprise.

There is much more, but I think the point is, from my perspective, Mr. Staples’ experience with sola scriptura was nothing like what is found in orthodox Lutheran teaching, and since Luther and the Lutheran reformers often get the blame/credit for SS, the default understanding of it probably ought to start there.

Jon
 
Again, you are begging the question; which is a rhetorical way of trying to make a point without proving it. You would first have to prove that God was going to basically force infallibility (and yes, impeccability) on the humans of the early churches; there’s no evidence for that, in fact, we see the opposite in scripture.
Forcing infallibility? I have no idea what you are talking about…Impeccability means: Incapable of sin or wrongdoing, so you are mistaken on that one. God does not fallibly guide Hid church.

Jesus promised to guide His church into all truth forever. Do you believe that these words apply to every Christian regardless of denomination, or just the apostles and their successors etc…?

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
 
People are fallible…Not me…LOL…:cool:The apostles were all fallible men who taught infallibly via the infallible guidance of God. How do you know that what you just said about Jesus’ church, did not apply to the apostles? Maybe they did not fully cooperate with God infallible guidance? :eek:

What is your answer to the OP? 🙂
You’re confusing infallible guidance with infallible teaching. Just because God guides infallibly doesn’t mean people teach infallibly. Humans can teach well (or poorly) but they can’t teach infallibly, because infallibility is not part of what it means to be human–it’s a attribute reserved to God alone. To say otherwise puts humans on par with God.
 
You’re confusing infallible guidance with infallible teaching. Just because God guides infallibly doesn’t mean people teach infallibly. Humans can teach well (or poorly) but they can’t teach infallibly, because infallibility is not part of what it means to be human–it’s a attribute reserved to God alone. To say otherwise puts humans on par with God.
Let’s apply that same logic to the folks (like Luke who was not even an apostle) that gave you your infallible bible, or maybe it’s not infallible, depending on your answer:

You don’t accept the idea that God infallibly guided the fallible church leaders e.g. the apostles, to teach and write infallibly - because infallibility is not part of what it means to be human–it’s a attribute reserved to God alone?
 
You’re confusing infallible guidance with infallible teaching. Just because God guides infallibly doesn’t mean people teach infallibly. Humans can teach well (or poorly) but they can’t teach infallibly, because infallibility is not part of what it means to be human–it’s a attribute reserved to God alone. To say otherwise puts humans on par with God.
I can infallibly proclaim that 2 + 2 = 4.
 
You’re confusing infallible guidance with infallible teaching. Just because God guides infallibly doesn’t mean people teach infallibly. Humans can teach well (or poorly) but they can’t teach infallibly, because infallibility is not part of what it means to be human–it’s a attribute reserved to God alone. To say otherwise puts humans on par with God.
If God is infallible, (and God is) then logically speaking nothing is impossible for God, which means the following is irrelevant: “infallibility is not part of what it means to be human–it’s a attribute reserved to God alone.”

If God cannot infallibly guide a select group of fallible humans in every generation until Jesus’ return, because infallibility is not part of what it means to be human, then there is in fact something that God cannot do. :bigyikes:
 
Forcing infallibility? I have no idea what you are talking about…Impeccability means: Incapable of sin or wrongdoing, so you are mistaken on that one. God does not fallibly guide Hid church.
God infallibly guides fallible humans. No, I’m not mistaken. To argue that there are current humans walking this earth that are infallible and are Vicars of Christ in procession, that is making a statement of Title that, if it were accurate, would carry certain absolutes. Just as God is absolute and only God is infallible and only God is impeccable, as I said. He didn’t give us humans that are infallible and/or impeccable, He gave us the Holy Spirit Who is.
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
The Holy Spirit is given to all believers. John is pretty clear on these matters in 1 John for example. The Holy Spirit is the key, without Him finding truth is impossible. The RCC teaches that the Holy Spirit only guides certain believers on certain matters. I believe scriptures teach that guidance is available to all believers directly.
 
Are you guys SURE you are not equating Sola
Scriptura with Bible literalism? They are not the same.
 
My post already covers this. Sola scriptura is not solo scriptura, as far as I know, no non-Catholic Christian denies that the gospel itself, the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, was first transmitted orally. The Bereans then were praised because they searched scripture to see if what the Apostle’s taught lined up with the prophecies and the teachings of God in the OT. When the writings of the NT were available, even in individual letter or book form, it became possible to compare and contrast what a local church leader was teaching with what was contained in the writings, and Paul makes it clear that scripture is key to being fully equipped for every good work, and that definitely includes the OT.
Yes,but St.Paul is also not teaching that it is through Scripture-alone. Furthermore,he cannot be teaching SS because he had no idea which books were considered canonical when he wrote. 👍
 
God infallibly guides fallible humans. No, I’m not mistaken. To argue that there are current humans walking this earth that are infallible and are Vicars of Christ in procession, that is making a statement of Title that, if it were accurate, would carry certain absolutes. Just as God is absolute and only God is infallible and only God is impeccable, as I said. He didn’t give us humans that are infallible and/or impeccable, He gave us the Holy Spirit Who is.

The Holy Spirit is given to all believers. John is pretty clear on these matters in 1 John for example. The Holy Spirit is the key, without Him finding truth is impossible. The RCC teaches that the Holy Spirit only guides certain believers on certain matters. I believe scriptures teach that guidance is available to all believers directly.
Contradictory. If ONLY God is infallible and not humans; and yet, he gave us the Holy Spirit to teach us the Truth,then how is it that His church is NOT infallible? :ehh:
 
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