Question for Protestants

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VociMike said:
If I may elaborate on your question, at what point was the entire Church, both east and west, overcome with heresy upon heresy (for such are many Catholic and Orthodox teachings in the eyes of many Protestants). How did these heresies spread to infect the entire Church without the tinest shred of historical evidence passing down to us? How is it that nobody in the early Church (believers who readily went to their deaths rather than deny the true faith!) wrote about these spreading heresies, or convened Councils to fight them, or schismed off from the heretics, or anything else that one might reasonably expect true believers to do when confronted by massive heresy spreading throughout the Church?

And yet, not a drop of historical evidence can be found for such an overwhelming infection of the Church…
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excellent point!Where is the common sense that the Most Blessed Trinity would allow heresy to spread to every corner of the earth for 1500+ years.
 
GK, the assumption is that while Jesus was not technically a Pharisee, He agreed with them on several doctrinal points including the resurrection, the existence of angels and the authority of Old Testament texts beyond the Pentateuch.

All of which put Him well outside the Sadducee camp of course and while not definitely identifying Him as a Pharisee, certainly identifying Him as one who agreed on doctrinal points with them even if He did consider their superiorism a galling affront to the God of Israel.
 
Steadfast

*Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. *
—Matthew 23

It is clear from this that Jesus is in the Pharisee camp. The letter of the law he knows they have; it is the spirit they are lacking. He came to restore the spirit. He did.
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
Steadfast

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
—Matthew 23

It is clear from this that Jesus is in the Pharisee camp. The letter of the law he knows they have; it is the spirit they are lacking. He came to restore the spirit. He did.
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Okay. Are we disagreeing?

Because I just don’t see it.

The vast majority of anawim (the poor of the land; i.e. the common Jews) believed all the doctrinal points the Sadducees disagreed with Pharisees about. This did not make them Pharisees, it just meant that the Pharisees were official representatives of “traditional Judaism” while the Sadducees were innovators.

Jesus, from Galilee can be seen in this mold as well; accepting of course that behind anything we say is the knowledge that, as God incarnate, He was not representing an opinion but the Truth.
 
Steadfast

Jesus, from Galilee can be seen in this mold as well; accepting of course that behind anything we say is the knowledge that, as God incarnate, He was not representing an opinion but the Truth.

“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."

Sounds like a doctrinal Pharisee to me. He was preaching doctrinal unity, just like a good Catholic. Obey the truth and don’t go off starting your own denomination.
 
Right, He was, doctrinally a Pharisee…but then, by the same standard so were 95% of all first century Palestinian Jews.
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
Steadfast

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
—Matthew 23

It is clear from this that Jesus is in the Pharisee camp. The letter of the law he knows they have; it is the spirit they are lacking. He came to restore the spirit. He did.
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I don’t think Jesus was in anyone’s “camp” - meaning He was a follower of some leader. He is Lord; people follow Him. It’s like saying He’s a Republican or a Democrat to say he was in their camp. He certainly denounced them.
 
I don’t think Jesus was in anyone’s “camp” - meaning He was a follower of some leader.

That isn’t what I said. I said he was on the side of the Parisees … in their camp. He acknowledged them as the true disciples of Moses.

Forget it.
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
Steadfast

Jesus, from Galilee can be seen in this mold as well; accepting of course that behind anything we say is the knowledge that, as God incarnate, He was not representing an opinion but the Truth.

“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."

Sounds like a doctrinal Pharisee to me. He was preaching doctrinal unity, just like a good Catholic. Obey the truth and don’t go off starting your own denomination.
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Jesus is not saying obey the truth and do not start your own denomination. Jesus is saying obey the truth and do not follow those who do not. In other words, Do break away from those that do not follow the truth. This is supported by other passages in Scripture also.
Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,
Mat 23:2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
Mat 23:3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
Mat 23:4 "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
Mat 23:5 "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.
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The problem I have with protestants is, there was but one church for 1500 years, then the Holy Spirit must have had a change of heart about something and revealed the truth to the true followers of our Lord. Then again for the next 500 years, the Holy Spirit had a change of heart another 30,000 times, because that is how many Christian denominations there are, and again He revealed the truth, slightly different every time, because He kept changing His mind, to each and every true follower of our Lord. :confused:

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, or am I wrong.
 
Giovanni said:
The problem I have with protestants is, there was but one church for 1500 years, then the Holy Spirit must have had a change of heart about something and revealed the truth to the true followers of our Lord. Then again for the next 500 years, the Holy Spirit had a change of heart another 30,000 times, because that is how many Christian denominations there are, and again He revealed the truth, slightly different every time, because He kept changing His mind, to each and every true follower of our Lord. :confused:

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, or am I wrong.
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You seem to ignore the Orthodox and the Syriac churches. Strange. You also seem to think things are either/or, like the Catholic Church is so free of error that it is always right, which is farther than it will go (note how limited papal infallibility is); Jesus spoke of wheat and tares growing together, which can happen doctrinally as well. Weeds can take over a wheat field.
False doctrine can take over a church. There can be a mixture of true and false, right and wrong, in doctrine and practice, and we see that. Protestants seek to reject the weeds and keep the wheat, because there have been so many weeds that it is necessary to keep the wheat from being crowded out, and regard that as God working through them to protect His truth.
Protestants don’t regard themselves, or the church, as infallible -God’s word is inerrant, and that is enough.
 
simbagizmo

Jesus is saying obey the truth and do not follow those who do not. In other words, Do break away from those that do not follow the truth.

In the passage cited Jesus is not saying to break away from their doctrines. He is saying we should break away from their example. Where in that passage do you see the words “do not follow their truth”? It is clear that he is giving to the Pharisees a right to teach according to Moses.

“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."
 
Truthstalker
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Protestants seek to reject the weeds and keep the wheat, because there have been so many weeds that it is necessary to keep the wheat from being crowded out, and regard that as God working through them to protect His truth.
Protestants don’t regard themselves, or the church, as infallible -God’s word is inerrant, and that is enough.

How do different Protestant denominations view each other? Don’t they view each other as in doctrinal error? Then how can they see each other as anything but more weeds piled on top of the Catholic weeds?

And 30,000 varieties of weeds at that.
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
simbagizmo

Jesus is saying obey the truth and do not follow those who do not. In other words, Do break away from those that do not follow the truth.

In the passage cited Jesus is not saying to break away from their doctrines. He is saying we should break away from their example. Where in that passage do you see the words “do not follow their truth”? It is clear that he is giving to the Pharisees a right to teach according to Moses.

“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."
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First, I did not say, “do not follow their truth”. I said, do not follow those that do not follow THE truth.

Secondly, you put a period at the end of the passage you quoted. But the passage has a semi-colon there instead. Then you should show the next verse also.
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
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This gives a different image than the partial quote you posted. Just reading your partial quote, it seems that Jesus is saying the Pharisees are examples and should be followed. But the second half of the verse and the next verse shows that failure of the Pharisees to understand the scriptures, or at least put into practice what the scriptures are teaching. Jesus is telling the people to do not follow the Pharisees in action, but break away from the way they are putting the teachings into action.

Jesus tells the people to listen to the Pharisees because this is the way they learned Scripture. The ordinary people did not have a copy of the Scriptures. So Jesus told them to listen to the Pharisees. But Jesus told them to discern from the teaching, the actions needed to be done to follow the teachings. They were told not to follow the lead of the Pharisees in doing. The Pharisees wrapped so many traditions around the teachings, that they eventually followed their traditions at the expense of God’s command.
Mat 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
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This does not sound like Jesus is preaching unity with the Pharisees to me. Unity to Scripture I would agree with. But not unity with the religious denomination.
 
rr1213 said:
A Christian’s standard in evaluating spiritual teachings should be the Bible. In looking at the Scriptures, we can tell if current teachings or practices meet the Biblical standard or not…even if we can’t say when, exactly, those teaching strayed from the Biblically mandated path.
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This is off the op but the bible was not intended to be used this way. It was never intended to be authorative separate from the church. Jesus would have left us a bible if that was the case.

He left us falllible human beings called the apostles to spread his infallible teachings. This is a CLEAR message to all of us that the call to be holy and to spread salvation is done by sinners to sinners because that is what we all are.

Every song needs instruments. the Song is pure and infallible the instruments are not. Christ is the song we are the instruments.

peace
 
Simbagizmo

“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."

I appreciate your effort to find a way out of this passage, but it can’t be done. Jesus is talking about doctrinal unity, not spiritual example. Yes, I put a period there by mistake, but as you read further you do not see Jesus contradicting what he said about doctrinal unity. He is only condemning the Pharisees’ hypocrisy. This same hypocrisy is found in members of all religions, Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim. The leaders preach one thing and do another. Jesus is telling those listening to him that the Pharisees have it right in doctrine. Do as they preach, not as they do.

I think I’ve said all I can say on this.

Pax tecum.
 
Simbagizmo,

One question for my clarification.

Where in Scripture does it mention that you must have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Please respond. I really what to know where this is located.

Thanks
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
Truthstalker
’
Protestants seek to reject the weeds and keep the wheat, because there have been so many weeds that it is necessary to keep the wheat from being crowded out, and regard that as God working through them to protect His truth.
Protestants don’t regard themselves, or the church, as infallible -God’s word is inerrant, and that is enough.

How do different Protestant denominations view each other? Don’t they view each other as in doctrinal error? Then how can they see each other as anything but more weeds piled on top of the Catholic weeds?

And 30,000 varieties of weeds at that.
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I can’t speak for all Protestants. I can barely speak for myself. I respect the right of all Christians to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, and to worship in accord with their beliefs and conscience. We read the Bible and come to different conclusions. Am I right or is my neighbor? Sometimes it is not so clear cut and we can agree to disagree and trust God to correct us. We do not necessarily insist on our own way (1 Cor 13) and we bypass the 'who’s right" mentality, the “our way or the highway” mentaility with statements like “in essentials unity, in dubious matters liberty, in all matters charity.” Of course in practice we fight like any good family members, but we try to learn from each other when we can. There are issues I disagree with my pastor on - I doubt anyone anywhere on earth is in full agreement with me on anything; can you say you and everyone in your church agrees on every single issue? I didn’t think so.

I like to think I have enough humility that if I am carrying weeds, I would be willing to listen to correction. In some cases I don’t know if something is a weed or not. There are many beautiful plants in the Catholic garden; there are others that seem ugly. But the best we can do is to ask each other what that plant is, and whether it is a weed, and in the end let God do the sorting.
 
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