Question for Protestants

[Gilbert_Keith]

Truthstalker

I like to think I have enough humility that if I am carrying weeds, I would be willing to listen to correction. In some cases I don’t know if something is a weed or not. There are many beautiful plants in the Catholic garden; there are others that seem ugly. But the best we can do is to ask each other what that plant is, and whether it is a weed, and in the end let God do the sorting.

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Well said about God sorting everything out. He always does, and that is humbling for us to remember.

We should submit to the truth God has given us and stand united in it. But I don’t see how humility is furthered by disagreeing with our pastors to the point of going out and starting a new denomination every few months … which seems to be where Protestantism is right now.

You are right about dissension within the Catholic Church. But the Church is united in spite of its dissension. When things get bad enough, the dissenter is told to get lost (excommunicated). This is an ancient tradition in the Church.

As a rule, Catholics finally submit in humility to the official teaching of the Church (some teachings are not absolutely official and there is room for discussion … that’s what theologians are for). The Catholics who don’t submit may well become Protestants, and may well start another religion. How is that a proof of humility or obedience of the type that Jesus demanded from the Jews when he said they should obey the Pharisees who had inherited their teachings and their seat of authority from Moses?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Harpazo

In regards to another debate, Jesus was considered an Essene Jew.

Is the word Essene in the gospels or the epistles?

 

[Truthstalker]

Truthstalker

But I don’t see how humility is furthered by disagreeing with our pastors to the point of going out and starting a new denomination every few months … which seems to be where Protestantism is right now.

I, for example, always carefully listen to my pastors and look at what they are saying - as they have encourage me to do, in the light of the Bible. I’ve never started my own denomination. One could be humble and do this; the burden is on you to prove that this is a failure of humility, since you seem to think denominationalism is necessarily to be condemned. Sometimes (certainly not always) church splits occur amicably.

How is that a proof of humility or obedience of the type that Jesus demanded from the Jews when he said they should obey the Pharisees who had inherited their teachings and their seat of authority from Moses?

Many Protestants were born or raised Protestant and won’t in their wildest dream consider the idea that the Catholic Church is the one and only. It’s as likely for them as for you to find the nearest Orthodox rabbi and declare that he sits in the seat of Moses and you are now here to obey and submit to him. Many Protestants take the verses about submitting to church leadership very seriously.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Truthstalker

Many Protestants were born or raised Protestant and won’t in their wildest dream consider the idea that the Catholic Church is the one and only. It’s as likely for them as for you to find the nearest Orthodox rabbi and declare that he sits in the seat of Moses and you are now here to obey and submit to him.

What has that to do with our discussion? Jesus was talking to the Jews who were still under the Old Law … and he was speaking of the Pharisees who lived in those days, not of the Jews or Gentiles who would follow the new Covenant.

Many Protestants take the verses about submitting to church leadership very seriously.

Many do, many don’t. Go look at your telephone directory’s Yellow Pages under “Churches.” Catholics are one Church with several different addresses. Protestant churches are a bewildering variety of church denominations that I would think would drive any atheist/agnostic to distraction if he was seriously interested in converting to Christ.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

the burden is on you to prove that this is a failure of humility, since you seem to think denominationalism is necessarily to be condemned. Sometimes (certainly not always) church splits occur amicably.

Yes, they occur amicably in the sense that they remain friendly. But not yes in the sense that each of the split groups thinks the other is in possession of the truth … or else why would they have split?

Protestants believe in their own infallibility just as much as Catholics believe in theirs. If they didn’t, why would they split? Wouldn’t they just resign themselves to the higher wisdom of the original Church? But where is that original Church? No Protestant denomination in existence today can trace its roots back farther than Martin Luther without bumping into the Catholic Church. In the 1400’s all Christians of Western Europe were Catholics. Every Christian who spoke French, English, German, Swedish, Gaelic, Spanish, Italian, etc. was a Catholic. There were no Lutherans, Presbytyrians, Baptists, Methodists, Mormons, Jehova’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Unitarian/Universalists, you name it.

Virtually all of the modern Protestants split, and hardly any of them split amicably at that time, not even when they were splitting from each other.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21

 

[simbagizmo]

Simbagizmo,

One question for my clarification.

Where in Scripture does it mention that you must have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Please respond. I really what to know where this is located.

Thanks

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

 

[BrianH]

QUOTE=Gilbert Keith;1693052]If the Catholic Church is a “false” religion,

I do not think the Catholic Church is a false religion and how unusual would that be to hear in a Methodist church nowdays!?!?!

 

[Dorothy]

That’s well known as The Boettner List and is totally refuted HERE.
Pax tecum,

Excellent site Michael! I bookmarked it.

So many who read “Roman Catholicism” need to be aware of the misrepresentation, twistings, and half truths in it.

Lorraine Boettner’s list made me laugh in some descriptions.

“Baptism of Bells” is on the list. (A priest probably said a blessing before the bells were installed in the church).

 

[Amicus7]

You seem to ignore the Orthodox and the Syriac churches. Strange. You also seem to think things are either/or, like the Catholic Church is so free of error that it is always right, which is farther than it will go (note how limited papal infallibility is); Jesus spoke of wheat and tares growing together, which can happen doctrinally as well. Weeds can take over a wheat field.
False doctrine can take over a church. There can be a mixture of true and false, right and wrong, in doctrine and practice, and we see that. Protestants seek to reject the weeds and keep the wheat, because there have been so many weeds that it is necessary to keep the wheat from being crowded out, and regard that as God working through them to protect His truth.
Protestants don’t regard themselves, or the church, as infallible -God’s word is inerrant, and that is enough.

You make a good point except for one small oversight, if the analogy is that the Protestants are like the wheat, wouldn’t be more fitting to say the weeds are the lies and errors and the Protestants make up wheat, rye, corn, watermelon, potatoes, pumkins, and oh, another 20,000 types of varied doctinal veggies and fruits??? Maybe I’m just confused on what you are protesting this week?

 

[mark_a]

James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of {our} God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, {and} to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Nice signature, though.

 

[Truthstalker]

You make a good point except for one small oversight, if the analogy is that the Protestants are like the wheat, wouldn’t be more fitting to say the weeds are the lies and errors and the Protestants make up wheat, rye, corn, watermelon, potatoes, pumkins, and oh, another 20,000 types of varied doctinal veggies and fruits??? Maybe I’m just confused on what you are protesting this week?

Perhaps this wasn’t clear enough. There are weeds and wheat everywhere in the church - Protestants and Catholics both fight the same problem.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Revelation 3:20.

This is Christ inviting all to the messianic banquet in heaven (cf Isaiah 25:6). This is one reason why we have the Liturgy of the Eucharist in Mass. This quotation is out of context and has nothing to do with my question nor can it help me.

The Good Shepherd chapter from John:

This continues the theme of attack on the Pharisees that ends the prior chapter, 9. The figure is allegorical (it has been seen as such since early commentators have written on it), the hired hands are the Pharisees who excommunicated the blind man.

Again, I want a quotation that supports the idea that supports the idea that you must have a personal relationship with Jesus. Any one else out there that can help here??

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Excellent site Michael! I bookmarked it.

So many who read “Roman Catholicism” need to be aware of the misrepresentation, twistings, and half truths in it.

Lorraine Boettner’s list made me laugh in some descriptions.

“Baptism of Bells” is on the list. (A priest probably said a blessing before the bells were installed in the church).

There is a blessing of bells (its in the Book of Blessings). These are good Jewish inspired and based rituals of the Church.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

opps…I gave away the end of the story. My bad.

Tabcom,

Do you get your conspiracy theories from the Chick Tracts?

Why do you run all over the place taking phrases and texts out of context?

And finally, from my Greek undergraduate days at UC Riverside, I thought ekklesia meant ‘gathering.’ Wow, the Whore-of-Babylon-Constantine-Da Vinci Code-Templars-Elders of Zion sure fooled me!!

 

[simbagizmo]

Revelation 3:20.

This is Christ inviting all to the messianic banquet in heaven (cf Isaiah 25:6). This is one reason why we have the Liturgy of the Eucharist in Mass. This quotation is out of context and has nothing to do with my question nor can it help me.

This is not taken out of context, it has everything to do with your question, and communion is symbolic to this relationship. Verse Rev 3:21 talks about while in heaven. Verse Rev 3:20 is talking about while on earth

Rev 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

The Good Shepherd chapter from John:

This continues the theme of attack on the Pharisees that ends the prior chapter, 9. The figure is allegorical (it has been seen as such since early commentators have written on it), the hired hands are the Pharisees who excommunicated the blind man.

Joh 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
Joh 10:15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Please continue reading the passage. John 10:14-15 states that Jesus, the good shepherd, knows me, his sheep, and I know him, just as the Father knows Jesus and Jesus knows the Father. This sounds like a relationship here.

Again, I want a quotation that supports the idea that supports the idea that you must have a personal relationship with Jesus. Any one else out there that can help here??

Here is a couple more Scripture passages that is a little more literal.

Jam 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
Rom 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

If its not Scripture you seek, the RC Catechism states Jesus address us as friends.

142 By his Revelation, “the invisible God, from the fullness of his love, addresses men as his friends, and moves among them, in order to invite and receive them into his own company.” The adequate response to this invitation is faith.

If the Scripture and RC Cathechism is not good enough, then I would go with reasoning.

It would be impossible to have Faith in a person with a personal relationship. I would be impossible to call anyone, Father, without a personal relationship. It would be impossible to call someone friend, without a personal relationship.

If none of this is proof enough, I will not be able to satisfy your requirement of proof.

 

[tabcom]

And finally, from my Greek undergraduate days at UC Riverside, I thought ekklesia meant ‘gathering.’

**That works too.

In ancient Israel the kingdom was considered a sheepfold, ruled by a shepherd-king. The subjects were called sheep (Ezek. 34:2-10). The whole people of Israel was designated “the church” as a divinely called congregation. The early Christians believed themselves to be this “church” or true sheep of Israel. Stephen spoke of this church being in the wilderness with Moses (Acts 7:38). The church (called out or gathering) and sheep are equivalent terms. The sheep are “called out” of this world to live righteously as the kingdom of God (Luke 17:21). Israel was called The Kingdom of God (or heaven). Jesus as the shepherd-king died only for His sheep (the church). Jesus chose his sheep before the world began (II Thess. 2:13). He gave them hearing (spiritual) ears to hear, then he commanded them “follow me” (John 1:43). Moreover when he did predestinate, them “he also called”; and whom “he called” he justified, and whom he justified he glorified (Rom. 8:30).**

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Truthstalker

Jesus spoke of wheat and tares growing together, which can happen doctrinally as well. Weeds can take over a wheat field.

The wheat and the tares you cite Jesus talking about are the saints and the sinners. There is no indication in that passage of Scripture that Jesus is talking about “doctrinal” wheat and tares. It’s an interpretation you have imposed on the words. This is typical of Protestant theology … that it calls itself Biblical but often ignores or twists the meaning of Biblical passages to suit each new denomination’s politically correct thinking.

If humility is rooted most of all in obedience, how do Protestants say they are obeying? Jesus prayed his followers should be as one, and not divided against one another? United we stand, divided we fall. The reason Christianity is losing ground in the world is that it is thoroughly divided against itself. Atheism/Agnosticism is growing at a phenomenal rate. Islam is the fastest growing religion in America.

Whose fault is that? The fault of a united Christendom or the fault of a thousand sects fighting for their own private piece of the religious turf?

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21

 

[Syele]

awantz

I am protestant and I do not see catholicism as a false religion.

Then it’s a true one? Doesn’t it have to be one or the other?

If it’s not false, why not join it?

Generally I’d equate “false religion” with “cult” (or not Christian at all). This is much different than saying “mistaken in some areas.”

Catholics are truly Christians but IMO are mistaken in some areas. I did not respond to the origional post because it starts with the assumption that I believe he Catholic Church is a “false” religion.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Syele

Catholics are truly Christians but IMO are mistaken in some areas. I did not respond to the origional post because it starts with the assumption that I believe he Catholic Church is a “false” religion.

Did Christ found a “truely” Christian church that teaches “mistaken” doctrines?

 

[Syele]

Syele

Catholics are truly Christians but IMO are mistaken in some areas. I did not respond to the origional post because it starts with the assumption that I believe he Catholic Church is a “false” religion.

Did Christ found a “truely” Christian church that teaches “mistaken” doctrines?

When Christ was here and founded it, it was at that time, not mistaken.