Question for SSPX chapel-goers.

[IrishDude45]

I do not want to start a FSSPX debate here, I am looking for opinions nothing more

I converted to Catholicism and was baptized and confirmed Easter 2007 in a liberal Novus Ordo parish. Ever since I have been drawn to pre-Vatican II liturgy and traditional practices. I am at a cross-roads. The parishes all around me are very liberal and I am a traditionalist. I have posted before about this.
The nearest Tridentine Mass is a long way off and only offered once a month. I can no longer stand the irreverence and heresy in the Novus Ordo parishes but I have no intention of walking into heresy by attending a FSSPX chapel either. If I run across anything that even remotely seems Sedevacantist I will leave. There is a FSSPX chapel 30 minutes away from where I live. I have wrestled with going for ages. I strive to be a loyal son of the Church but that is exactly why I want to attend this chapel. I want to participate in a Mass that is as it should be. I am discerning the priesthood and I am very seriously considering the FSSP but the parishes around me do not have the kind of atmosphere or masses that are very conductive to that. I realize the situation the FSSPX is in but the lifting of the excommunications of the bishops has given me hope.
Now someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong but I have heard it said that if you attend a FSSPX chapel out of a desire for traditional sacraments and not because you wish to separate from the Holy See it is not a sin? At the moment the FSSPX seem more loyal to Tradition than anybody else around here. If any FSSPX members or anybody who has gone to their chapels could give me advice I would appreciate it.

Pax Vobiscum

In Christ
IrishDude

 

[Spirithound]

Now someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong but I have heard it said that if you attend a FSSPX chapel out of a desire for traditional sacraments and not because you wish to separate from the Holy See it is not a sin? At the moment the FSSPX seem more loyal to Tradition than anybody else around here. If any FSSPX members or anybody who has gone to their chapels could give me advice I would appreciate it.

I don’t attend a SSPX Chapel, but I have also heard what you have.

 

[Yours_Truly]

Now someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong but I have heard it said that if you attend a FSSPX chapel out of a desire for traditional sacraments and not because you wish to separate from the Holy See it is not a sin? At the moment the FSSPX seem more loyal to Tradition than anybody else around here. If any FSSPX members or anybody who has gone to their chapels could give me advice I would appreciate it.

Pax Vobiscum

In Christ
IrishDude

Of course you can attend an SSPX Church. Even before the excommunications were lifted Rome said that you could attend unless your reason for doing so was to separate from the Pope. That is not your intention and it was never the intention of the SSPX.

Here’s what I would recommend. Call the SSPX Church see if you can schedule an appointment with the Priest. Tell him exactly what you said here.

Here’s an article for you to read. Keep in mind that all of the quotes are from BEFORE the excommunication was lifted. If it was permissible to attend then, how much more so now?

renewamerica.us/columns/mershon/070410

 

[ziapueblo]

Do you have any Eastern Catholic parishes where you live? That may be a great alternative for you.

God bless,
ZP

 

[AntiNovusOrdo]

I can identify with the struggle that you are going through. I also converted to the Catholic faith in the spring,2007. Ever since then, I have become increasingly dissastisfied with the Novus Ordo masses and have become increasingly drawn to the Latin Mass. The way that I look at it is this: According to the inffallible teaching of Trent, there is to be only the Latin Mass in perpetuity. The Trent Council also stated authoritatively that there were to be no other kinds of masses. Therefore the Novus Ordo Mass is illicit and should be avoided if possible. That leaves you with the only other option, which is the FSSPX, or some other Traditionalist Church sans the sedavacantist kind. I can assure you through my own personal research in the matter that the SSPX is not sedavacanist or schismatical. I know that the authorities in Rome would have us believe that they did something wrong when Archbishop Lefebrve “illicitly” ordained 4 Bishops back in 1988. Nothing could be further from the truth as the good Archbishop was well within his rights according to canon law to do this. Consequently the excommunication that was imposed on them was invalid. Indeed you would do very well in joining the FSSPX, as they are one of the very few Catholic organizations that have preserved the Faith, whole and entire. Hope this helps.

 

[Spirithound]

The way that I look at it is this: According to the inffallible teaching of Trent, there is to be only the Latin Mass in perpetuity. The Trent Council also stated authoritatively that there were to be no other kinds of masses. Therefore the Novus Ordo Mass is illicit and should be avoided if possible.

The Novus Ordo (the Ordinary Form) is not illicit. The canons establishing the Tridentine Mass could not have been infallible since there are 22 other sui juris Catholic Churches to which those did not apply. Furthermore, the Tridentine Mass developed further into the Extraordinary Form that we have today.

 

[Timothysis]

I can identify with the struggle that you are going through. I also converted to the Catholic faith in the spring,2007. Ever since then, I have become increasingly dissastisfied with the Novus Ordo masses and have become increasingly drawn to the Latin Mass. The way that I look at it is this: According to the inffallible teaching of Trent, there is to be only the Latin Mass in perpetuity. The Trent Council also stated authoritatively that there were to be no other kinds of masses. Therefore the Novus Ordo Mass is illicit and should be avoided if possible. That leaves you with the only other option, which is the FSSPX, or some other Traditionalist Church sans the sedavacantist kind. I can assure you through my own personal research in the matter that the SSPX is not sedavacanist or schismatical. I know that the authorities in Rome would have us believe that they did something wrong when Archbishop Lefebrve “illicitly” ordained 4 Bishops back in 1988. Nothing could be further from the truth as the good Archbishop was well within his rights according to canon law to do this. Consequently the excommunication that was imposed on them was invalid. Indeed you would do very well in joining the FSSPX, as they are one of the very few Catholic organizations that have preserved the Faith, whole and entire. Hope this helps.

Its very nice to see that you have been a Catholic since 2007 and have already embraced a hostility to the Church and Her authorities. If only the Church had more like you…

 

[Lujack]

I can identify with the struggle that you are going through. I also converted to the Catholic faith in the spring,2007. Ever since then, I have become increasingly dissastisfied with the Novus Ordo masses and have become increasingly drawn to the Latin Mass. The way that I look at it is this: According to the inffallible teaching of Trent, there is to be only the Latin Mass in perpetuity. The Trent Council also stated authoritatively that there were to be no other kinds of masses. Therefore the Novus Ordo Mass is illicit and should be avoided if possible. That leaves you with the only other option, which is the FSSPX, or some other Traditionalist Church sans the sedavacantist kind. I can assure you through my own personal research in the matter that the SSPX is not sedavacanist or schismatical. I know that the authorities in Rome would have us believe that they did something wrong when Archbishop Lefebrve “illicitly” ordained 4 Bishops back in 1988. Nothing could be further from the truth as the good Archbishop was well within his rights according to canon law to do this. Consequently the excommunication that was imposed on them was invalid. Indeed you would do very well in joining the FSSPX, as they are one of the very few Catholic organizations that have preserved the Faith, whole and entire. Hope this helps.

That’s incorrect. Even if Trent eliminated every single Catholic rite but the Tridentine Mass (which it didn’t), that would have been a matter of discipline, subject to change as the Church saw fit.

 

[tassitus]

I can identify with the struggle that you are going through. I also converted to the Catholic faith in the spring,2007. Ever since then, I have become increasingly dissastisfied with the Novus Ordo masses and have become increasingly drawn to the Latin Mass. The way that I look at it is this: According to the inffallible teaching of Trent, there is to be only the Latin Mass in perpetuity. The Trent Council also stated authoritatively that there were to be no other kinds of masses. Therefore the Novus Ordo Mass is illicit and should be avoided if possible. That leaves you with the only other option, which is the FSSPX, or some other Traditionalist Church sans the sedavacantist kind. I can assure you through my own personal research in the matter that the SSPX is not sedavacanist or schismatical. I know that the authorities in Rome would have us believe that they did something wrong when Archbishop Lefebrve “illicitly” ordained 4 Bishops back in 1988. Nothing could be further from the truth as the good Archbishop was well within his rights according to canon law to do this. Consequently the excommunication that was imposed on them was invalid. Indeed you would do very well in joining the FSSPX, as they are one of the very few Catholic organizations that have preserved the Faith, whole and entire. Hope this helps.

Yes, you could either listen to AntiNovusOrdo, with all his “personal research in the matter” (and, I might add, whose screen name alone is patently offensive to Catholics), or listen to Papa:

**“I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfill the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement.” **Pope John Paul II, in Ecclesia Dei

 

[ProVobis]

I can no longer stand the irreverence and heresy in the Novus Ordo parishes but I have no intention of walking into heresy by attending a FSSPX chapel either. If I run across anything that even remotely seems Sedevacantist I will leave. There is a FSSPX chapel 30 minutes away from where I live. I have wrestled with going for ages. I strive to be a loyal son of the Church but that is exactly why I want to attend this chapel. I want to participate in a Mass that is as it should be. I am discerning the priesthood and I am very seriously considering the FSSP but the parishes around me do not have the kind of atmosphere or masses that are very conductive to that. I realize the situation the FSSPX is in but the lifting of the excommunications of the bishops has given me hope.

I would say this, if you feel you must attend an SSPX Mass for your spiritual advantage, do so without trying to offend any priest or bishop within your diocese. Things are still tense and the SSPX priests won’t be fully instated (their suspensions removed) until a determination of their canonical status is established. In other words, the local bishop still has the final say as to what sacraments and whose may be properly used within his diocese. SSPX Masses and communion are valid but do support the local diocese if and when you can. There is no schism unless you want there to be one.

 

[maurin]

Yes, you could either listen to AntiNovusOrdo, with all his “personal research in the matter” (and, I might add, whose screen name alone is patently offensive to Catholics), or listen to Papa:

**“I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfill the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement.” **Pope John Paul II, in Ecclesia Dei

mmmmmmhhhhmmmmmmm.

I forgot that Ecclesia Dei, the mp of HH JPII was the last word on the subject.

Do you think that His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI will issue an mp of his own?

I wonder (I wait in joyful hope) if sometime in the future if HH Benedict XVI will lift the excommunications and open the way for a full integration of the Priests, Bishops and any of those who have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre into the Church? If only we had some way of knowing the future? But Scripture is clear, it is sinful to try and divine future events.

Oh well, I guess we must wait and see if Pope Benedict will ever issue a motu proprio of his own that will relate to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre in some way, and wait and see if he’ll lift the excommunications.

Do you think he will?

 

[Yours_Truly]

mmmmmmhhhhmmmmmmm.

I forgot that Ecclesia Dei, the mp of HH JPII was the last word on the subject.

Do you think that His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI will issue an mp of his own?

I wonder (I wait in joyful hope) if sometime in the future if HH Benedict XVI will lift the excommunications and open the way for a full integration of the Priests, Bishops and any of those who have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre into the Church? If only we had some way of knowing the future? But Scripture is clear, it is sinful to try and divine future events.

Oh well, I guess we must wait and see if Pope Benedict will ever issue a motu proprio of his own that will relate to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre in some way, and wait and see if he’ll lift the excommunications.

Do you think he will?

I also wonder if he will issue a motu proprio that will acknowledge that the old Mass was actually never abrogated, “and, in principle, always permitted”. If he did that, it would show that the document Ecclesia die of John Paul II issued an indult for a Mass that was never abrogated!

If Pope Benedict ever issues such a document, I have the perfect name for it: Summorum Pontificum! That would indeed by a “happy day” - youtube.com/watch?v=mEdyIvvUJB0

 

[AntiNovusOrdo]

Hi folks,
I am genuinely sorry if some have taken offense to my screen name. Let me assure you that was not my intention at all. The last thing that I would want to do is cause dissension in the ranks of Catholics. I am not against Catholics who go the Novus Ordo as I happen to know some real good people who do so. I do not think Novus Ordo Catholics are any less “Catholic” than Traditionalists. On the other hand, what I am against is the abuse of the liturgy that has been going on in the past 40 years or so. And to my way of thinking, these abuses would not have happened if the Church would have just stuck to the tried and true latin mass. So again, I apologize to any one out there who was offended by anything that I wrote in my last post. You guys and gals are my brothers and sisters in Christ whom I hope one day to see in Heaven for eternity. We are all in this together, and as God is my witness, I bear no hostility or rancor towards you, or the Holy Father. Peace.

 

[maurin]

I also wonder if he will issue a motu proprio that will acknowledge that the old Mass was actually never abrogated, “and, in principle, always permitted”. If he did that, it would show that the document Ecclesia die of John Paul II issued an indult for a Mass that was never abrogated!

If Pope Benedict ever issues such a document, I have the perfect name for it: Summorum Pontificum! That would indeed by a “happy day” - youtube.com/watch?v=mEdyIvvUJB0

Maybe we can start a Rosary just for these intentions?

Wouldn’t it be perfect if HH wrote an accompanying letter to his mp–what did you say would be a good name for it, “Summorum Pontificum”?-- in which he declares the status of all those linked in some way to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre as an internal matter of reconciliation within the Church?

I wonder if we’ll ever see the day?

 

[LilyM]

I also wonder if he will issue a motu proprio that will acknowledge that the old Mass was actually never abrogated, “and, in principle, always permitted”. If he did that, it would show that the document Ecclesia die of John Paul II issued an indult for a Mass that was never abrogated!

If Pope Benedict ever issues such a document, I have the perfect name for it: Summorum Pontificum! That would indeed by a “happy day” - youtube.com/watch?v=mEdyIvvUJB0

I wonder if in the same motu Proprio Benedict will ALSO address the question of the alleged inferiority of the Mass of Paul VI … and if so will it say something like:

“These two expressions (Mass of Pius V and Mass of Paul VI) of the Church’s Lex orandi will in no any way lead to a division in the Church’s ‘Lex credendi’ (Law of belief). They are, in fact two usages of the one Roman rite.”

Same undivided *lex credendi *behind BOTH forms, people. So in a sense ‘AntiNovusOrdo’ is also ‘AntiMassofPiusV’

 

[RUINATION_IPA]

IrishDude,

Go to your local SSPX immediately! You sound as if your shoulders are square - you’ll know if and when you need to leave the SSPX if things get out of hand. I’ll assure you right now that the Priests of the SSPX will probably never give you occasion to leave. After getting fed up with all the NO junk here locally I decided it was putting the faith of my children in jeopardy and we headed off to the SSPX. We attend the TLM exclusively (for Sunday Mass) but mostly go to the FSSP even though they are about 30 minutes further away. We use the SSPX as a backup and I must say that there are things I like more about the SSPX than I do about the FSSP - like a dress code clearly posted on the door which requires women to wear veils, no slacks (on women) and men must be dressed appropriately as well. The FSSP also posts a sign requiring women to wear veils but not the other modesty issues.

By all means get the TLM and be done with it so you can move on with the rest of your life! You’ll be happy you did! I know we sure are! All of the abuses found in the NO just simply vanish into thin air at the TLM; no EM’s, no communion in the hand, no heresy from the pulpit, no skimily dressed lay lectors, hand holding, guitar strumming - the list is endless…

God Bless you!

 

[Yours_Truly]

I wonder if in the same motu Proprio Benedict will ALSO address the question of the alleged inferiority of the Mass of Paul VI … and if so will it say something like:

“These two expressions (Mass of Pius V and Mass of Paul VI) of the Church’s Lex orandi will in no any way lead to a division in the Church’s ‘Lex credendi’ (Law of belief). **They are, in fact two usages of the one Roman rite.” **

But if Pope Benedict XVI was to say that, he would be contradicting the express intent of Pope Paul VI, who did not intend to create a new form of the same Rite, but a new rite of Mass.

Paul VI, General Audience, November 26, 1969:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6691126.HTM

"We ask you to turn your minds once more to the liturgical innovation of the new rite of the Mass. This new rite will be introduced into our celebration of the holy Sacrifice starting from Sunday next which is the first of Advent, November 30 [in Italy].

1. A new rite of the Mass: a change in a venerable tradition that has gone on for centuries. This is something that affects our hereditary religious patrimony, which seemed to enjoy the privilege of being untouchable and settled. It seemed to bring the prayer of our forefathers and our saints to our lips and to give us the comfort of feeling faithful to our spiritual past, which we kept alive to pass it on to the generations ahead.
2. …This change will affect the ceremonies of the Mass. We shall become aware, perhaps with some feeling of annoyance, that the ceremonies at the altar are no longer being carried out with the same words and gestures to which we were accustomed…
3. We must prepare for this many-sided inconvenience. It is the kind of upset caused by every novelty that breaks in on our habits. We shall notice that pious persons are disturbed most, because they have their own respectable way of hearing Mass, and they will feel shaken out of their usual thoughts and obliged to follow those of others. **Even priests may feel some annoyance in this respect. **
4. So what is to be done on this special and historical occasion? First of all, we must prepare ourselves. This novelty is no small thing. We should not let ourselves be surprised by the nature, or even the nuisance, of its exterior forms. As intelligent persons and conscientious faithful we should find out as much as we can about this innovation. …
5. It is here that the greatest newness is going to be noticed, the newness of language. No longer Latin, but the spoken language will be the principal language of the Mass. The introduction of the vernacular will certainly be a great sacrifice for those who know the beauty, the power and the expressive sacrality of Latin. We are parting with the speech of the Christian centuries; **we are becoming like profane intruders in the literary preserve of sacred utterance. We will lose a great part of that stupendous and incomparable artistic and spiritual thing, the Gregorian chant. ** [But Vatican II sais Gregorian chant should be retained?]
6. We have reason indeed for regret, reason almost for bewilderment…

“Regret” and “beweilderment”. Prophetic words indeed from Pope Paul VI.

 

[RUINATION_IPA]

I wonder if in the same motu Proprio Benedict will ALSO address the question of the alleged inferiority of the Mass of Paul VI … and if so will it say something like:

“These two expressions (Mass of Pius V and Mass of Paul VI) of the Church’s Lex orandi will in no any way lead to a division in the Church’s ‘Lex credendi’ (Law of belief). They are, in fact two usages of the one Roman rite.”

Same undivided *lex credendi *behind BOTH forms, people. So in a sense ‘AntiNovusOrdo’ is also ‘AntiMassofPiusV’

Lily, with all due respect, you clearly do not know what you’re talking about when you cite the axiom, ‘lex orandi, lex credendi.’ as there is a virtual chasm between the new and the old Mass when it comes to this - the motives behind the NO are diametrically opposed to the canons of Trent which codified the TLM; one making the Mass more acceptable to protestants; the other in refuting the protestant revolution.

 

[LilyM]

But if Pope Benedict XVI was to say that, he would be contradicting the express intent of Pope Paul VI, who did not intend to create a new form of the same Rite, but a new rite of Mass.

Have you not read SP? Benedict DID say exactly the words I quoted. I’d take his word as to what Paul VI intended over yours.

 

[LilyM]

Lily, with all due respect, you clearly do not know what you’re talking about when you cite the axiom, ‘lex orandi, lex credendi.’ as there is a virtual chasm between the new and the old Mass when it comes to this - the motives behind the NO are diametrically opposed to the canons of Trent which codified the TLM; one making the Mass more acceptable to protestants; the other in refuting the protestant revolution.

Then you’re saying that Benedict XVI, who wrote those exact words in SP, ALSO didn’t know what he was talking about when HE cited that axiom. And we know HE didn’t say it out of any particular attachment to the Novus Ordo - he has long shown that he has no particular attachment to it