Question for SSPX members and others

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If the local SSPX priest (pastor) says that he is not following along, then he has excluded himself. In which case, I would not attend his mass.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
The SSPX Masses are valid at this time because they do not preach heresy. Will they suddenly become invalid if the reconciliation does not come through?
 
The SSPX Masses are valid at this time because they do not preach heresy. Will they suddenly become invalid if the reconciliation does not come through?
Illicit, but probably not invalid, as his ordination to the priesthood still remains intact.
 
Not exactly. Bishop Fellay can still reject the Pope’s offer.
There are yet discussions to come.
I guess it just sounded like the Pope was the one offering a deal to Bishop Fellay and he decides whether he likes it or not. I think it’s the other way around. Bishop Fellay makes his offer to the Pope, and the Pope makes the final decision, not Bishop Fellay.
 
Illicit, but probably not invalid, as his ordination to the priesthood still remains intact.
I don’t believe SSPX Masses are illicit now. Will they become so if the reconciliation deal falls through? And if so, why?
 
I guess it just sounded like the Pope was the one offering a deal to Bishop Fellay and he decides whether he likes it or not. I think it’s the other way around. Bishop Fellay makes his offer to the Pope, and the Pope makes the final decision, not Bishop Fellay.
Well it is kind of amusing to imagine the Pope telling Bishop Fellay: “you’re all regularized whether you like it or not, and oh by the way, I’m appointing you auxiliary bishop of Linz, effective tomorrow.”

But actually there will have to be a mutual agreement for things to be settled.
 
Well it is kind of amusing to imagine the Pope telling Bishop Fellay: “you’re all regularized whether you like it or not, and oh by the way, I’m appointing you auxiliary bishop of Linz, effective tomorrow.”

But actually there will have to be a mutual agreement for things to be settled.
That is not what I’m saying. I’m saying that all indications are that Bishop Fellay has signed the Preamble and asked for reconciliation, with certain unknown conditions. Now it is up to the Pope to make that final decision. That is what, as far as I can understand, all the current negotiations are about. The Pope has the final word, not Bishop Fellay. Certainly the Pope is not going to regularize them if they don’t want it. But it is ultimately the decision of the Pope, not theirs.
 
That is not what I’m saying. I’m saying that all indications are that Bishop Fellay has signed the Preamble and asked for reconciliation, with certain unknown conditions. Now it is up to the Pope to make that final decision. That is what, as far as I can understand, all the current negotiations are about. The Pope has the final word, not Bishop Fellay. Certainly the Pope is not going to regularize them if they don’t want it. But it is ultimately the decision of the Pope, not theirs.
Bishop Fellay has signed a document (with modifications) that he was asked to sign.

If nothing further is asked of Bishop Fellay and the SSPX, then you are basically correct, although the SSPX could always walk away from whatever the Pope proposes (although I find that unlikely).

But it’s not yet clear (to me at least) that nothing further will be asked. The proposed canonical structure on offer could itself contain stipulations that the SSPX cannot agree to.
 
I don’t believe SSPX Masses are illicit now. Will they become so if the reconciliation deal falls through? And if so, why?
To celebrate mass, a priest is supposed to have faculties from the local bishop or the superior of his order if he is a religious, right? I’m no canon lawyer, but I would think it is illicit for a priest to celebrate mass if he has not been granted faculties to do so by the bishop with jurisdiction.

I look forward to full communion being restored and these issues resolved!
 
To celebrate mass, a priest is supposed to have faculties from the local bishop or the superior of his order if he is a religious, right? I’m no canon lawyer, but I would think it is illicit for a priest to celebrate mass if he has not been granted faculties to do so by the bishop with jurisdiction.
To celebrate public Mass legitimately, yes, the local bishop must approve.
 
I thought it was the Pope who decides if there is a reconciliation, not Bishop Fellay. :rolleyes:
It is the Holy Father. That’s the way Preambles work. The process that they’re using is the same that they used to bring back some of the Eastern Catholic Churches that were in schism. There is a theological dialogue. Then there is a preamble, which both sides get to comment on. When both are satisfied with what it says, the affected party, in this case the SSPX, has to sign that it agrees to it. Then it goes back to the Holy Father.

This takes them into the next step, which does not involve dialogue at all. The Holy Father issues his conclusions in which he states what will happen next and how.

At that point, if the other party (SSPX) backs down, everything is over. There are no further discussions. It was to this that the Vatican was referring to when it said that if the SSPX did not agree, this could lead to a schism. The statement is a very nuanced way of saying that the conversation is over.

I believe that many people are imagining that it’s a type of democratic egalitarian process, but it’s really not. It’s very hierarchical. That’s why Bishop Fellay repeats that the pope wants this to happen now and that it is the pope who is making this happen. He also said that he wished he had more time. It was clear, without him saying so, that the Holy Father did not give Bishop Fellay more choices than agree or disagree. On-going discussion and further discernment was not on the table.

He does not mention anyone but the pope. He makes no references to the dicastry. Apparently, they are past that stage. A dialogue would be between the SSPX and the dicastry, not with the pope. Popes don’t engage in these dialogues. That’s the job of the sacred congregations and the prefects. Popes approve or disapprove what is reported to them.
Not exactly. Bishop Fellay can still reject the Pope’s offer.
There are yet discussions to come.
He can reject it, but there will be no more discussions or further attempts at a reconcilation. That’s why they put it in the language that they did “Sign or there will be a rupture.” If one is willing to go on with more dialogue, one does not use this kind of strong language.

Also, Bishop Fellay’s letter to the SSPX bishops says, “Rome will no longer tolerate this.” That’s not him speaking. That’s Rome speaking through him.
The SSPX Masses are valid at this time because they do not preach heresy. Will they suddenly become invalid if the reconciliation does not come through?
Masses celebrated by suspended priests are always illcit (illegal), but they are valid. If they go into schism. the status of their masses will be the same as it was with the Orthodox until 1968. Catholics may not attend and may not receive Holy Communion there, even if there is no Catholic mass around. It remains that way until the anathema is lifted, as was the case with the Orthodox. Once you go into schism, you’re an independent Church. You’re no longer Catholic.

What’s murky here is that the message said that if they did not sign “IT COULD” cause a rupture. It does not exactly threaten with an anathema; but it does not rule it out. At this point, it’s all a matter of praying that the everyone will do whatever is the will of God and waiting until the Holy Father speaks.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
To celebrate public Mass legitimately, yes, the local bishop must approve.
If that’s the case, then how can the SSPX Masses valid now, which they are? Is the permission of the SSPX bishop enough? And if it is, why won’t it be enough if the reconciliation falls through?
 
If that’s the case, then how can the SSPX Masses valid now, which they are? Is the permission of the SSPX bishop enough? And if it is, why won’t it be enough if the reconciliation falls through?
The state of the priest (whether he’s suspended, in mortal sin, or otherwise) has no affect on validity. The Masses he says are valid, given proper form and proper intention. That won’t change, reconciliation or not.
 
If that’s the case, then how can the SSPX Masses valid now, which they are? Is the permission of the SSPX bishop enough? And if it is, why won’t it be enough if the reconciliation falls through?
Validity and liceity are two separate things. Any validly ordained priest can validly celebrate the Eucharist. But in order to do so licitly, the priest must follow the proper canons and have the proper approvals.
 
If that’s the case, then how can the SSPX Masses valid now, which they are? Is the permission of the SSPX bishop enough? And if it is, why won’t it be enough if the reconciliation falls through?
It’s like being a surgeon. A surgeon can obviously operate without a license and the operation will be a success. The nest day he goes to jail, not because the patient died, but because he didn’t have a medical license. It had been taken away.

Faculties means license. A priest can celebrate a mass and the consecration is valid. But he needs to have a license to celebrate mass. There are only two people who can give him a license: the diocesan bishop, if he’s celebrating mass for the bishop’s people or a male religious superior if he’s celebrating mass on the property of a religious order. If he does not have the license, the mass is illegal. Objectively, this is a grave sin. Subjectively, only God knows what’s in the hearts of men.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Objectively, this is a grave sin. Subjectively, only God knows what’s in the hearts of men.
off topic, but…

This a a great quote!!
Thank you! This is why a good priest, and friend of mine says that he doesnt know if he has ever heard a mortal sin confessed in the confessional.
Thank you!
 
off topic, but…

This a a great quote!!
Thank you! This is why a good priest, and friend of mine says that he doesnt know if he has ever heard a mortal sin confessed in the confessional.
Thank you!
That’s because we see the act or hear about it. But we can’t see the heart of the person involved to know how much of the three requirements necessary for grave sin they actually meet. Even a confessor, cannot see that part. He takes the confession at face value. Only Christ can see what was in the heart and mind of the person at the time.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
 
off topic, but…

This a a great quote!!
Thank you! This is why a good priest, and friend of mine says that he doesnt know if he has ever heard a mortal sin confessed in the confessional.
Thank you!
I would argue, however, that this is a useless, and possibly misleading, thing to say.

The priest certainly knows whether he has heard objective mortal sins in the confessional, so to state the (obvious) fact that he can’t see the state of men’s souls, in such a way that it might be interpreted that he hasn’t heard any (objective) mortal sins is, as I said, misleading.
 
I am sure everyone on this forum is tired of discussing the SSPX - so many threads have been started concerning the recent talks with Rome. I hate to start another one, but I really want to know what impact any “reconciliation” will have on non-SSPX members and those who do not attend SSPX Masses.

If the talks go well and the SSPX becomes a personal prelature or something similar, would you consider attending Mass said by an SSPX priest? If so would you attend regularly? Funerals/Weddings? If you are thinking of holy orders would you consider being trained by the SSPX or joining their Sisters or Brothers? In short, how would a good outcome of the current talks affect you?

(PS - sorry if this question has been directly asked already - I have seen comments touch this on other threads)
 
It’s an interesting question. In my diocese I have EF Masses readily available to me on Sundays and certain weekdays. There is not an SSPX chapel around here now though. I don’t think I’d start attending an SSPX chapel exclusively; however, I would certainly attend occasionally and especially for a wedding or funeral.
 
It’s an interesting question. In my diocese I have EF Masses readily available to me on Sundays and certain weekdays. There is not an SSPX chapel around here now though. I don’t think I’d start attending an SSPX chapel exclusively; however, I would certainly attend occasionally and especially for a wedding or funeral.
Then I guess you would not need to attend, since you have a traditional Mass nearby and there is no SSPX chapel close to you, but it is nice to hear that you would consider attending occasionally.
 
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