Question for the Aramaic experts

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DaveBj

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In Hebrew “Jesus the Messiah” is “Ye-SHU-a ha-Ma-SHI-akh.” In Aramaic (according to the sound-track of The Passion of the Christ) “Jesus” is “YE-shu-a,” but what is “the Messiah?”
 
DaveBj said:
In Hebrew “Jesus the Messiah” is “Ye-SHU-a ha-Ma-SHI-akh.” In Aramaic (according to the sound-track of The Passion of the Christ) “Jesus” is “YE-shu-a,” but what is “the Messiah?”
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According to here:

v-a.com/bible/jesus.html

“Messiah” is m’shee-kha.

According to Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah

it is “משיחא,” pronounced msheeha.

Either way, it is practically the same as with the Hebrew.
 
DaveBj said:
And “the messiah?”
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I’m no expert in Aramaic, but I can tell you that many languages, do not always include articles. In other words, the word “the” may not exist in Aramaic, or it may fuse into the word, changing it slightly.
 
Thanks for that. If there’s some homework I can do for you, let me know 😃
 
Does the following analysis of Aramaic concerning the work rock in Matt. 16 holds water? It is from a Protestant:
  1. The Greek text of Matthew 16:18 uses two separate (different) Greek words in the passage.
    Petros, the name given to the Apostle
    Petra, the word used for rock
    Rome says that “Peter” (PETROS) is merely the masculine form of the feminine noun PETRA, and therefore means the same thing. But…
  2. Classic Greek authors (before the New Testament was written) treat the words PETROS and PETRA as two different words.
    According to Liddell and Scott:
    Petros, …(distinct from petra)…
    Hom. IL. 16.734; 7:270; 20.288
    E. Heracl.1002, “panta kinesai petron” …“Leave no stone unturned”
    cf. Pl. Lg. 843a
    X. HG 3.5.20 “Petrous epekulindoun” “They rolled down stones.”
    S. Ph 296 to produce fire “en petroisi petron ektribon”
    Id. OC 1595 of a boulder forming a landmark
    [the usual prose word is lithos]"
    from: A Greek - English Lexicon, complied by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott, pg. 1397- 8, Pub. by Oxford, at the Clarendon Press.)
    NOTE: Petros, a stone, a smaller movable stone (Heracletes uses it in the phrase “leave no stone unturned.”) So, a “PETROS” is a stone which can by turned over, hence, a movable stone.
    Petra, a large massive rock, a large boulder, a foundation stone.
    The word “Petros” is only used in the Greek New Testament as a proper name for Simon bar Jona.
    Petros is not merely a masculine form of the word petra, but is a different word with a different meaning, though both words are derived from a common root.
  3. The wording of Matt. 16:18 uses two different Greek words. If Jesus was referring the second word to Simon Peter he could have said “epi tauto to petro” (using the masculine gender in the dative case) the same word as “Petros.” But what he said was “Epi taute te petra” using Petra, a different Greek word.
  4. The usage of two different words in the inspired Greek original, if representing an Aramaic original (which is in no case certain) would seem to point to the usage of two separate Aramaic words in this passage.
  5. The Peshitta Syriac translation of the New Testament in Matthew 16:18 uses kepha’ for both Greek words petros and petra. Is this accurate, or could it be a mistranslation of the original Greek Text?
  6. The proper translation of Petros is Ke’pha’. On this we have the authority of the Word of God itself in the Greek original of the New Testament, where the name “Ke’pha” (in the English Bible “Cephas”) is six times given as the Aramaic equivalent to Petros for the name of Simon bar Jonas. (John 1:42; 1Corinthians1:12; 3:22; 9:5; 15:5; Galatians 2:9) So, we can say, based upon the authority of the original Greek of the New Testament that Petros, the name given to Simon bar Jona by the Lord Jesus (John 1:42) is the correct translation of the Aramaic/Syriac word Ke’pha’. Greek: Petros = Aramaic: Ke’pha’ (“Cephas”)
    But what of the Greek word Petra? Is it correctly translated as Ke’pha’?
    There is nowhere in the Greek New Testament where the word Ke’pha’ is given as the correct translation of the Greek word Petra. In order to determine the Syriac/Aramaic word which best translates the Greek word Petra we will have to look at the translations of the Greek New Testament which were made in the first five centuries of the Christian Church to determine how the Greek word Petra was understood.
    Greek: Petra = Aramaic: ?
  7. In the Peshitta Syriac New Testament the Greek word “PETRA” is translated by the Aramaic word SHUA' as in Matthew 7:24-25 meaning a massive rock or a boulder. PETRA is used 16 times in the Greek New Testament: Of those times it is translated in the Peshitta Syriac 9 times by the word SHUA’ ,
    6 times by the word KE’PHA’ and
    1 time by the Hebrew root word ‘ABENA’
    Of the ten times PETRA is used in the Gospels it is translated:
    7 times by the word SHU`A’
    (Mt.7:24, 25; Mk.15:46; Lk 6:48[2x];8:6, 13)
    3 times by the word KE’PHA’
    (Mt.16:18; 27:51; 27:60)
Of the three times KE’PHA’ is used to translate PETRA in the Gospels:
[1] in Mt. 27:60 the parallel passage in Mark’s gospel (Mark 15:46) more correctly uses SHUA' to translate PETRA. [2] in Mt. 27:51 the word KE'PHA' is used to describe the rocks (plural) which were broken at the earthquake when Christ died (and hence, these rocks became movable) [3] the other passage is Mt. 16:18 where KE'PHA' is used to translate both PETROS and PETRA. In all other places in the Gospels the Greek word PETRA is translated by the Syriac word SHUA’, meaning “a massive rock.”
KE’PHA’ is used in the Syriac N.T. as the translation of both the Greek words LITHOS and PETROS.
The Greek word LITHOS, which means “a stone” (generally of a size which could be picked up or moved) is ALWAYS translated by the Syriac word KE’PHA’.
As LITHOS in classical Greek is the common prose word for “a stone” (see the quote from Liddle and Scott’s Lexicon, above) and PETROS is more common in poetry, this shows that the definition of KE’PHA’ as “a stone” is correct. The Syriac KE’PHA’ is equivalent to the Greek LITHOS, a movable stone.
KE’PHA’ IS ALWAYS USED TO TRANSLATE THE GREEK WORD LITHOS.
SHU’A IS THE MORE USUAL AND CORRECT SYRIAC WORD TO TRANSLATE THE GREEK WORD PETRA.
KE’PHA IS A MOVABLE STONE = LITHOS / PETROS.
SHU’A IS A MASSIVE ROCK = PETRA.
The Syriac word SHUA' is NEVER used to translate the Greek word LITHOS. Because a LITHOS is NOT a large massive rock, but a SHUA’ is.
The Syriac KE’PHA’ is correctly used to translate the Greek words LITHOS and PETROS because these are movable stones.
  1. The fact that the Greek text of the New Testament uses two separate Greek words in the passage [Matthew 16:18] indicates that any underlying Aramaic/Syriac original (if there was one, AND THIS IS FAR FROM PROVEN) also must have used two separate words.
 
With regards to Petros/Petra is it possible that Jesus is describing a transition that was going to happen to Peter at Pentecost?

Going from thrice denying to proclaiming boldly?
 
DaveBj said:
In Hebrew “Jesus the Messiah” is “Ye-SHU-a ha-Ma-SHI-akh.” In Aramaic (according to the sound-track of The Passion of the Christ) “Jesus” is “YE-shu-a,” but what is “the Messiah?”
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“The Messiah” in Aramaic is “משיחא” (meshichah)
 
Roman123,

You should have probably started a new thread with your post, but anyways, a few years ago, I participated in a thread on Matt. 16:18 and it’s implications in Aramaic. It might be helpful to your understanding, so here is the link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=239277&page=8

My contribution starts on page 8 (post 115).

God bless,

Rony
 
ronyodish said:
snip

My contribution starts on page 8 (post 115).

God bless,

Rony
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It’s good that you gave the post number, but bear in mind that people’s page counts differ, depending on how many posts they specify to appear on a page. On my display, post #115 would be on page 3.
 
It’s good that you gave the post number, but bear in mind that people’s page counts differ, depending on how many posts they specify to appear on a page. On my display, post #115 would be on page 3.
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ah, cool, thanks for letting me know. 🙂

God bless,

Rony
 
“Unless you do penance you will perish”.

How do you say “do penance” in Aramaic?
 
Jerry-Jet

The verse which you quoted, from Luke 13:3, renders penance (or repentance) in the Peshitta as follows:

The Aramaic word/phrase is: ܬܬܘܒܘܢ

It is transliterated as: Ttuobuon

It is translated as: “you do repent”, and addressed to a group of people (plural).

God bless,

Rony
 
ronyodish said:
Jerry-Jet

The verse which you quoted, from Luke 13:3, renders penance (or repentance) in the Peshitta as follows:

The Aramaic word/phrase is: ܬܬܘܒܘܢ

It is transliterated as: Ttuobuon

It is translated as: “you do repent”, and addressed to a group of people (plural).

God bless,

Rony
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Wasn’t my question, but thanks for the information, especially that the word means “repent” and not “do penance.” It’s the same in the Greek – “repent” (literally, to change one’s way of thinking about something), not “do penance.”
 
About the Kepha bit.
patrick457 said:
I’ll just drop a comment.

First of all, I recommend reading Fr. Joseph A. Fitzmyer’s To Advance the Gospel: New Testament Studies, especially the chapter “Aramaic Kepha’ and Peter’s Name in the New Testament” (the chapter is also found in Text and Interpretation: Studies in the New Testament Presented to Matthew Black, BTW), as well as Saint Peter: The Underestimated Apostle by Martin Hengel and Thomas Trapp and The Remembered Peter in Ancient Reception and Modern Debate by Markus Bockmuehl for some discussion about Peter’s name/s (especially Cephas). Bockmuehl summarizes the present academic situation rather nicely:

Peter’s Aramaic name Kēfa’ has been the subject of far more extensive discussion, partly because its ecclesiological significance was for a long time deeply contested between Catholic and Protestant interpreters. The blossoming of ecumenical dialogue and of Roman Catholic biblical studies since Vatican II has meant that the confessional wind has for some time been more conducive to genuine progress and consensus. The exegetical dividing lines no longer fall among predictably denominational lines. The meaning of the Aramaic term כיפא as “rock” or “crag” has been reasonably demonstrated in the Targums and Dead Sea Scrolls, although the implications are still ignored by some recent commentators who deny that kēfa’ could be something one builds upon. This is not of course to say that all the difficulties have been removed. One of the major disagreements concerns the authenticity of Jesus’ saying about Peter as the Rock in Matt 16.18; on this matter the major multi-volume commentaries of the last decade continued to reach opposing conclusions. Another abiding problem is the significance of the wordplay employed in that verse.

Now to business. In some of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we can see some interesting uses of the the Aramaic word כיפא kēfa’. In the Job Targum found in Cave 11 in Qumran (11QtgJob aka 11Q10, cols. 32.1; 33.9, cf. Job 39:1, 28), for example, kēfa’ is used to translate the Hebrew word סֶ֣לַע sel[sup]a[/sup]‘ (‘rock’, ‘crag’, ‘cliff’, ‘mountain’). The word also shows up in the Aramaic fragments of the book of Enoch found in Cave 4. For instance, 4QEn[sup]e[/sup] aka 4Q206, frg. 5, col. 3.19 reads: [w‘mr s]lq lr‘š k]p ḥd rm “[and the sheep: climbed to the sum[mit of] a certain high [cr]ag.” (cf. 1 Enoch 89:29 “And that sheep ascended to the summit of that lofty rock, and the Lord of the sheep sent it to them.”) 4QEn[sup]c[/sup] aka 4Q204 (frg. 4.3) has tnyn‘ wslq lr‘š kp‘ dn “climbed up [again for] a second time to the summit of that crag.” (cf. 1 Enoch 89:32 “Then that sheep who conducted them went away, and ascended the top of the rock.”) Lastly, 4QEn[sup]a[/sup] aka 4Q201, col. 2.18: [wlm]drk ‘l ‘prh w‘]l [kp]yh l‘ tškḥwn mn ḥmth] “and you are not able to tread upon the dirt or upon the [roc]ks/stones on account [of the heat]” (cf. 1 Enoch 4 “And you seek shade and shelter by reason of the heat of the sun, and the earth also burns with growing heat, and so you cannot tread on the earth, or on a rock by reason of its heat.”) We can see a similar meaning behind these passages: in most of the passages kēfa’ is envisioned to be a sort of rock mass or crag, part of a mountainous or hilly region.
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(Continued)
Now, Kepha is not attested as a non-Christian personal name in Hebrew or Aramaic sources from the Second Temple or rabbinic periods. We do have a sole surviving pre-Christian instance of kēfa’ apparently being used as a proper name in a 5th century BC Aramaic text from Elephantine in Egypt. Fr. Fitzmyer compares this instance of kēfa’ with the Hebrew Ṣur (“rock”) which is repeatedly attested in the Old Testament. However, as Bockmuehl argues, “it remains the case that nearly half a millennium of history and culture separates Elephantine from first-century Palestine, where the evidence suggests that Cephas was not current as a name.” Contra Fitzmeyer, Bockmuehl proposes that
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The term Cephas would have remained perfectly intelligible in Jewish circles throughout the rabbinic period, so that the name Šim’ōn Kēfa’ could still be readily understood and interpreted in the later legends of the Toledot Yeshu. In the absence of evidence for Cephas as a Jewish name, however, this remains as Peter’s most distinctive epithet – his nickname rather than a proper name. Somewhat contrary to Fitzmyer’s inquiry, it seems likely to have been of interest precisely because it was not a familiar personal name. It is this that characterized him in the Aramaic-speaking churches of Judaea, and which ironically survived even Paul’s move into the Gentile world.
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Finally, let’s look at the Septuagint. In Job 30:6, for instance, חֹרֵ֖י וְכֵפִֽים ḥōrê…ḵēfîm (“holes…of the rocks”) is translated as τρῶγλαι πετρῶν trōglai petrōn; in Jeremiah 4:29, וּבַכֵּפִ֖ים עָל֑וּ ûḇakēfîm ‘ālû “they climb among rocks” is rendered as ἐπὶ τὰς πέτρας ἀνέβησαν tas petras anebesan. Also Sirach 40:15: “The branch of violence shall not be unpunished, for the root of the godless is on the tooth of a rock/crag.” (Hebrew: אֶל שֵׁ֑ן סֶ֣לַע ‘el šēn sel[sup]a[/sup]‘; Greek: ἐπ᾽ ἀκροτόμου πέτρας ep’ akrotomou petras “sharp-point of a rock”)
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