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ProVobis
Guest
From the 1983 Canon Law:
Note it doesn’t take into account whether the priest is in good standing.
Question for the members of the group Society of St. Pius X:
- Status
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SaintGobban
Guest
The above is not true.
- Canon 1013 states, “No Bishop is permitted to consecrate anyone as Bishop, unless it is first established that a pontifical mandate has been issued.” The meaning of this canon is self-evident, in that a bishop needs permission from the Holy See before consecrating another to the episcopate. The penalty for one who violates this canon is also clearly stated in the Code of Canon Law as follows: Canon 1383 “Both the Bishop who, without a pontifical mandate, consecrates a person a Bishop, and the one who receives the consecration from him, incur a latae sententiae [automatic] excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See.” As one can see, the penalty of excommunication for one who violates the aforementioned canon is automatic, and can only be removed by the Apostolic See (can. 1355).
- Of similar clarity in the Code of Canon Law is the law surrounding schism. Canon 751 defines schism as** “the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”** One must note that schism not only occurs when one refuses or withdraws communion with members of the Roman Catholic Church, but also when one refuses or withdraws submission to the Holy Father personally. obstinately scorns the commandments of the Church, and refuses to subject to her judgm**The action through which one refuses or withdraws one’s submission need neither be perpetual, nor pertaining to all judgments of the Roman Pontiff; insofar as one has not repented of one’s act of disobedience, thus persisting in placing one’s personal judgment above that of the Church, a single act of refusal to submit to judgment of the Holy Father within a single controversy constitutes schism. As St. Thomas Aquinas explains, “The essence of schism consists in rebelliously disobeying the commandments: and I say rebelliously, since a schismatic both obstinately scorns the commandments of the Church, and refuses to subject to her judgment” (Summa Theologica, IIa IIae Q.39 Art. 1. Dominican Fathers translation).
**
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SaintGobban
Guest
There is a post from FRESHWIND which was cut and pasted in two different threads extolling the Mass experience at a SSPX Chapel, so I feel compelled to counter with my OWN observations.
I too attended Masses there for 6 months. I did not do it out of a desire to separate myself from Rome, but because there were things about the way the Mass was celebrated: the piety and reverence of the Priest, the obvious reverence shown by the congregation, and the closeness of pews to the altar, in other words, the general milieu, which I appreciated.
There were also things I noted which I did not appreciate. Occasionally, they would have “guest” priests who sometimes behaved strangely. One, “stage” whispered and hissed the Conscecration in a theatrical and frightening way, as if he were conjuring and performing black magic. I don’t even know if this priest was of the Pius X Society, but his behavior made me want to run out of the chapel.
There was also an “attitude” toward women which I was the unfortunate recipient of several times. My husband is a mannerly and polite man, and I am accustomed to being treated with a certain amount of courtesy. You won’t find any of that in a SSPX chapel. I’ll list a few examples: It was standing room only in the back, there were several older women standing, and an early
30’s man sitting in the only available folding chair, he would not get up and offer his seat. There was a young woman standing AND holding a baby, and what appeared to be her husband (the man she was with) sitting in the folding chair next to her. The usher stepped on my foot, squarely, I winced, he did not even look at me. Men would try to beat me out the door, stand on the walk-way outside and block it, and not move except for my husband. I once asked if the priest was in the confessional and the man I queried completely ignored me. One time I went to Communion and a man at the other end of my pew got up to go to Communion just as I had reentered the pew. This made it necessary for me to exit the pew again, although he had been sitting at the opposite end (why didn’t he just exit the pew at his end), and he clearly delayed going to Communion (why didn’t he go to Communion until I returned). This man seemed to have a real problem with me and my husband, for some reason, and it seemed like his only intention was to inconvenience me with this behavior.
Unfortunately, in the course of the 6 months there was a reassignment of priests. The new priest was very young, maybe around 25-26. He was only ordained for a year. During the first Mass he said, he gave a 40 minute homily about himself. It only got worse. At one point, I found it necessary to contact him about his plans to have a Mass in the local park. I did not agree with this plan. There is a rule that this is only to be done in times of necessity. There were some other issues I brought up with him as well; mostly mundane things like kids running all over the parking lot when people were pulling out, keeping the first Mass people singing songs in the parking lot so second Mass people had nowhere to park, telling people he had an annoucement to make after Mass, corraling everyone into the parking lot, and then not making an announcement (we were then stuck in traffic from a football game after that fiasco), and it ended up taking 3 hours and 40 minutes round trip for Mass. Drive time is 35 minutes each way.
When I contacted him, he told me repeatedly that I was ‘bordering on disrespectful… I didn’t know my place…I wasn’t being humble…and he disparaged my husband for putting up with me.’ Yes, a 26 year old actually said the words, “You don’t know your place.” The entire time I was trying to tell him why I called, he talked right along with me and never listened to a single thing I said. My husband called him and got close to the same treatment.
We are old enough to be this man’s parents. We never said anything even remotely disrespectful or out of line to this priest whatsoever. Just the mere fact that we would dare to disagree with him was “disrespect.”
This group doesn’t want to bo back to 1969. They want to go back to the Ming Dynasty in China.
This just goes to show you that whatever problems you believe to exist in the Chuch are not necessarily going to be resolved in “Tradition.” There are good priests and not so good priests in both. Some problems might be resolved, but a whole other set of problems could easily appear, ones you never even anticipated.
The main thing, you owe unfailing allegiance to the Pope. What the Pope says goes.
Your soul hangs in the balance.
trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_pope_as_christ.shtml
I too attended Masses there for 6 months. I did not do it out of a desire to separate myself from Rome, but because there were things about the way the Mass was celebrated: the piety and reverence of the Priest, the obvious reverence shown by the congregation, and the closeness of pews to the altar, in other words, the general milieu, which I appreciated.
There were also things I noted which I did not appreciate. Occasionally, they would have “guest” priests who sometimes behaved strangely. One, “stage” whispered and hissed the Conscecration in a theatrical and frightening way, as if he were conjuring and performing black magic. I don’t even know if this priest was of the Pius X Society, but his behavior made me want to run out of the chapel.
There was also an “attitude” toward women which I was the unfortunate recipient of several times. My husband is a mannerly and polite man, and I am accustomed to being treated with a certain amount of courtesy. You won’t find any of that in a SSPX chapel. I’ll list a few examples: It was standing room only in the back, there were several older women standing, and an early
30’s man sitting in the only available folding chair, he would not get up and offer his seat. There was a young woman standing AND holding a baby, and what appeared to be her husband (the man she was with) sitting in the folding chair next to her. The usher stepped on my foot, squarely, I winced, he did not even look at me. Men would try to beat me out the door, stand on the walk-way outside and block it, and not move except for my husband. I once asked if the priest was in the confessional and the man I queried completely ignored me. One time I went to Communion and a man at the other end of my pew got up to go to Communion just as I had reentered the pew. This made it necessary for me to exit the pew again, although he had been sitting at the opposite end (why didn’t he just exit the pew at his end), and he clearly delayed going to Communion (why didn’t he go to Communion until I returned). This man seemed to have a real problem with me and my husband, for some reason, and it seemed like his only intention was to inconvenience me with this behavior.
Unfortunately, in the course of the 6 months there was a reassignment of priests. The new priest was very young, maybe around 25-26. He was only ordained for a year. During the first Mass he said, he gave a 40 minute homily about himself. It only got worse. At one point, I found it necessary to contact him about his plans to have a Mass in the local park. I did not agree with this plan. There is a rule that this is only to be done in times of necessity. There were some other issues I brought up with him as well; mostly mundane things like kids running all over the parking lot when people were pulling out, keeping the first Mass people singing songs in the parking lot so second Mass people had nowhere to park, telling people he had an annoucement to make after Mass, corraling everyone into the parking lot, and then not making an announcement (we were then stuck in traffic from a football game after that fiasco), and it ended up taking 3 hours and 40 minutes round trip for Mass. Drive time is 35 minutes each way.
When I contacted him, he told me repeatedly that I was ‘bordering on disrespectful… I didn’t know my place…I wasn’t being humble…and he disparaged my husband for putting up with me.’ Yes, a 26 year old actually said the words, “You don’t know your place.” The entire time I was trying to tell him why I called, he talked right along with me and never listened to a single thing I said. My husband called him and got close to the same treatment.
We are old enough to be this man’s parents. We never said anything even remotely disrespectful or out of line to this priest whatsoever. Just the mere fact that we would dare to disagree with him was “disrespect.”
This group doesn’t want to bo back to 1969. They want to go back to the Ming Dynasty in China.
This just goes to show you that whatever problems you believe to exist in the Chuch are not necessarily going to be resolved in “Tradition.” There are good priests and not so good priests in both. Some problems might be resolved, but a whole other set of problems could easily appear, ones you never even anticipated.
The main thing, you owe unfailing allegiance to the Pope. What the Pope says goes.
Your soul hangs in the balance.
trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_pope_as_christ.shtml
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TrueLight
Guest
How many SSPX chapels have you attended to make the comment in bold?
I’m sorry you had a bad experience. There are rude people everywhere.
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freshwind
Guest
since you quoted me, I thought I would respond…
my experience, to clarify, is from attendance once…and maybe I happened upon a good chapel?
I am glad I did, but the behaviour you cite I have seen in other parishes as well… I think I also stated that I know some young priests that celebrate Mass in the vernacular that do it with a reverance that can make you feel you should be on your knees for the entire time in humility … and others where you leave and almost say, what was that?
being a weak sinner and looking for nourishment at Mass, I find it extremely uplifting to be fed by both word and Eucharist so the homily is also an important part for me, and at times it seems to be missing.
I guess what I am really trying to say is we will always have good parishes and better parishes, maybe even some bad ones with both EF and OF Masses…and as always, I remember I was told many moons ago by a religion teacher who was also our parish priest…biggest problem the Catholic Church has are Catholics …
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SaintGobban
Guest
You can see my post directly above yours.
**
THE COMMENT WAS NOT MADE IN BOLD.**
YOU MADE IT IN BOLD.
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passer_by
Guest
I think what was meant was that “I bolded the part that I had problems with. How many did you attend to make that claim?”
I have never been to a SSPX mass, probably never will. But the behavior you say could have happened to you in a normal parish too.
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At_Trent
Guest
Relax. If you post, others may quote you.
Her point was clear. In any parish, EF, OF, no matter, you will find a mix of attitudes and mannerisms.
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TrueLight
Guest
That’s exactly what I meant. Thank you.
I admit, the way I wrote it could have been misinterpreted.
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TrueLight
Guest
Yes.
I am actually appalled by such behavior. But I doubt that is indicative of all or most of SSPX chapels…
Trads tend to have more conservative opinions about women’s roles, but I would think that would tend to inspire more gentlemanly behavior. Unfortunately, along with feminism came the lost of little niceties like men standing up when a woman enters or leaves a room, pulling out chairs, etc.
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severus68
Guest
The behaviour complained of was appaling and cannot be excused.
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TrueLight
Guest
I am in no way excusing it. I used the word “appalled”.
What I am saying is that because they are trads, I would expect them to be more attentive to treating women in a gentlemanly manner, and so therefore, I doubt most SSPX chapels are this way.
My brain or fingers must be tired because people are not getting what I’m saying today.
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NewsTheMan
Guest
Na, I understood perfectly. Some people are difficult and want you to say things that you never said. Shock and horror, sometimes people are rude/sexist.My brain or fingers must be tired because people are not getting what I’m saying today.
We actually have sinners in the Church? Some people are imperfect? Gasp!
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TrueLight
Guest
Phew!
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SaintGobban
Guest
I realize that this post is long and that many of you may have gotten sick of reading. I believe this to be true because you seem like you have to make a point of saying what I’ve already said above:
**This just goes to show you that whatever problems you believe to exist in the Chuch are not necessarily going to be resolved in “Tradition.” There are good priests and not so good priests in both. Some problems might be resolved, but a whole other set of problems could easily appear, ones you never even anticipated. **
Also, for the guy who said the problem with the Catholic Chruch is the Catholics,
I guess you didn’t read the part about the PRIEST…which was actually the cause of my leaving this Chapel.
And, for the person who first said I bolded something and then said I didn’t but the point remains:
I have only been in one Chapel. But, I have read things online that would support my belief that the myscogenistic behavior which I experienced is part of their overall belief system. This was further supported by the words and behavior of a newly ordained SSPX priest. This was further supported by the fact that they would not let a female referee call a boys basketball game. They had several different explanations for this but the real one is, “women are not allowed to teach men.” This is why women must cover their heads in Chapel, it is Scriptural, but it is also part of their platform that women are below men in the hierarchy of beings. Their women are never allowed to wear pants, either. Even the little girls are outside playing in long skirts.
It’s kind of like they are Orthodox Jews. At camp, the girls don’t play sports, they learn flower arranging. These strict gender roles permeate all aspects of SSPX. Despite what they claim, it isn’t really all about the Liturgy and the Doctrine. There is a definite cult-like atmosphere.
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TrueLight
Guest
Ah. So there is your real agenda.
Rather than begin by saying you just want to share an alternate experience because someone posted a positive one, just begin by saying you think the SSPX is misogynistic based on things you have seen online and because of an experience you had.
Maybe some are? The SSPX members are better qualified to answer those charges.
Different opinions are allowed on this thread.
No need to dissimulate.
Rather than begin by saying you just want to share an alternate experience because someone posted a positive one, just begin by saying you think the SSPX is misogynistic based on things you have seen online and because of an experience you had.
Maybe some are? The SSPX members are better qualified to answer those charges.
Different opinions are allowed on this thread.
No need to dissimulate.
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pollycarp
Guest
Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery. They would not forgive wearing “pants.”
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NewsTheMan
Guest
Thought this thread was going a bit too well 
Here we go…
Here we go…
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wisdomseeker
Guest
As with worldly people, some just wanted to think about themselves. It is alll about me and me alone.
Not many seem to point to God is the One who we really need to please and not ourselves.
The Divine Worship is due to God and not to ourselves. We must comply and follow which God has stablished for HImself including the Worship He wants.
We should not seek priests who are willing to bow to us, but seek those whose focus are on God and not on us.
Get over yourselves. You are not the Saviour, God is. The Traditional Mass has always been the Mass of the Saints. So, seek to know the Saints and stop focus on yourselves so much.
It was nice to hear a Traditional Priest the other day on EWTN, He kind said that many people in teh New Mass says, here i am, entertain me. He is so right .
Not many seem to point to God is the One who we really need to please and not ourselves.
The Divine Worship is due to God and not to ourselves. We must comply and follow which God has stablished for HImself including the Worship He wants.
We should not seek priests who are willing to bow to us, but seek those whose focus are on God and not on us.
Get over yourselves. You are not the Saviour, God is. The Traditional Mass has always been the Mass of the Saints. So, seek to know the Saints and stop focus on yourselves so much.
It was nice to hear a Traditional Priest the other day on EWTN, He kind said that many people in teh New Mass says, here i am, entertain me. He is so right .
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SaintGobban
Guest
I feel that the post above is intended to “bait” me into a reply which will then allow my posts to be deleted and myself to be banned.
I’ll simply respond: my “agenda” is to share my overall impression of SSPX in order to demonstrate that SSPX has other problems beyond the problems that they have with the Church.
Their problems are not just Doctrinal, Liturgical, Clerical, Canonical, whatever ical you can come up with that justifies their break with the “Conciliar” Church.
This is the impression that I came away with based on my own personal experience, and the literature which they put out, and the things I have read about them online written by others.
They demonstrate cultish behavior. They are extremely closed, guarded, even paranoid in their behavior. I witnessed them treat their women, and not just me, very poorly. They also seem to feel free to do whatever they want to do, almost exactly like the innovators in the Conciliar Church. **I gave as examples, having a Mass in the park, and a priest reciting the Consecration in a most bizarre fashion, as if he were conjuring the devil. **
You may choose to believe these things or not. But, because someone had a positive experience at SSPX, and chose to share it, I felt that impression needed to be balanced by my different, and far less positive experience.
If I have an agenda it is to remind people that strict obedience to the Pope and the Magisterium of the Chruch is also solidly rooted in TRADITION.
So SSPX is selective in which TRADITIONS they choose to adhere to.
My obvious agenda is to dissuade people from SSPX.
I think they are wrong.
I think they are also more than just a Traditional Catholic group, but that aspect is never shared.
I believe people should avoid them.
No hidden agenda here. That is my opinion. You are entitled to your own.
But, no one is entitled to judge the Pope. That is solid Catholic Doctrine.
I’ll simply respond: my “agenda” is to share my overall impression of SSPX in order to demonstrate that SSPX has other problems beyond the problems that they have with the Church.
Their problems are not just Doctrinal, Liturgical, Clerical, Canonical, whatever ical you can come up with that justifies their break with the “Conciliar” Church.
This is the impression that I came away with based on my own personal experience, and the literature which they put out, and the things I have read about them online written by others.
They demonstrate cultish behavior. They are extremely closed, guarded, even paranoid in their behavior. I witnessed them treat their women, and not just me, very poorly. They also seem to feel free to do whatever they want to do, almost exactly like the innovators in the Conciliar Church. **I gave as examples, having a Mass in the park, and a priest reciting the Consecration in a most bizarre fashion, as if he were conjuring the devil. **
You may choose to believe these things or not. But, because someone had a positive experience at SSPX, and chose to share it, I felt that impression needed to be balanced by my different, and far less positive experience.
If I have an agenda it is to remind people that strict obedience to the Pope and the Magisterium of the Chruch is also solidly rooted in TRADITION.
So SSPX is selective in which TRADITIONS they choose to adhere to.
My obvious agenda is to dissuade people from SSPX.
I think they are wrong.
I think they are also more than just a Traditional Catholic group, but that aspect is never shared.
I believe people should avoid them.
No hidden agenda here. That is my opinion. You are entitled to your own.
But, no one is entitled to judge the Pope. That is solid Catholic Doctrine.
- Status