Question for X-SDA or knowledgeable Catholic

[turtleoompa]

See Jerome’s Commentary on the Bible.

 

[una_fides]

Hi una fides,
thanks for the two quotes and related commentary, that was really helpful - I am Catholic (thanks be to God’s calling) but still fairly new and still learning

Thanks. I’m glad I could help!

 

[Rachel_1]

This is a response to Annie—You ask if the “Catholic Church is the beast”? If what you ask is true then Jesus is a liar and if Jesus is a liar then our faith is forfeit! The Catholic Church is NOT–I repeat–is NOT the BEAST! The “beast” has ten horns and seven heads. According to the foot notes in my bible the beast is ancient Rome with Nero and the other rulers in power.
If you want to equate it today, you can say the beast is the Free Masonic Order, which is a Satanic power in the world. Our lady calls Communism the “red dragon” and the Free Masonic Order, “the Black Beast” The beast in my opinion is any group or groups of people who are against God and the Free Masonic Order fits the definition. There are ten Satanic Commandment listed in a little town in Georgia. You might want to.look up “The Georgia Guide Stones” in your computer. They exist in Elbert, Ga.
I hope I have been of some help to you.

Re: The Georgia Guidestones or America’s stonehenge-
I actually just looked this up like 2 weeks ago. It caused quite a tift in our house.
I was amazed at what it said, depopulation, total control etc, so I read it to my husband (who’s pagan) and he goes “oh, I think all that sounds great”… typical tree hugger response. I had to sit there and read it to him without all the gushy wording so he could understand what it all meant.
The background on them is weird too…and on the one stone on the ground, in the middle is “Let these be guidestones to an age of reason” referencing “The Age of Reason” a book written by Thomas Paine. Its intent was to destroy Christian beliefs.
When they had some ceremony to unveil them, my understanding is only one person spoke up… some pastor, who has since left the area.
As far as the OPs question-Yea, I believe that SDA do think of the Church as the beast… but I agree for the most part with oamanno.

 

[ryanoneil]

I personally favor a preterist view - that the Beast and Whore already occurred in ancient Rome as Nero and the personal cult of emperor worship. The defeat of the Beast and the Whore aren’t the end of the battle against evil, indeed we still await the final defeat of Satan and his angels at Armageddon. Note also the word antichrist does not appear in Revelation but rather in the epistles of John and to the Thessalonians (as ‘man of sin’) which suggests to me that this type of person or force will remain although the Beast and Whore were specific to the time.

Wiki actually has a decent overview of the preterist view of the Beast, tying in bits from contemporary historians Suetonius and Tacitus, whose views I am more apt to take on the subject because they were closer to the original audience of John’s Apocalypse than we are. It’s indeed grating to see (as many have) an attempt to render one’s political or religious opponent’s name in numerology to get 666, especially to take a name in English (which did not exist at the close of Scripture) and render it so.

Are you familiar with the view that apostate Jerusalem was the harlot. I read about it in the book “Rapture” by David Currie.

The sea beast is simultaniously Nero and Rome. The land beast is the Temple Jews. The false prophet/whore was forced to offer sacrifice to Nero as a God. They did it in order to survive, which is how they were in league/bed with one another. Others were forced to do the same or they were executed. Those who offered sacrifice to Nero recieved the mark of the beast (which is a spiritual mark by the way). Eventually the whore stopped the sacrifice and then the beast turned and devoured her. This was the destruction of the great city Jerusalem and the trampling of the Temple.

On her forehead was written a name, which is a mystery, “Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth.” I saw that the woman was drunk on the blood of the holy ones and on the blood of the witnesses to Jesus. When I saw her I was greatly amazed. (Rev 17:5-6)

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; now fill up what your ancestors measured out! You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Mt 23:29-39)

**Your country is waste, your cities burnt with fire; Your land before your eyes strangers devour (a waste, like Sodom overthrown)-- And daughter Zion is left like a hut in a vineyard, Like a shed in a melon patch, like a city blockaded. Unless the LORD of hosts had left us a scanty remnant, We had become as Sodom, we should be like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, princes of Sodom! Listen to the instruction of our God, people of Gomorrah! (Isa 1:7-10)

Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations. Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem: By origin and birth you are of the land of Canaan; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. (Ezek 16:1-3)

Yes, you are the true daughter of the mother who spurned her husband and children, and you are a true sister to those who spurned their husbands and children–your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. Your elder sister was Samaria with her daughters, living to the north of you; and your younger sister, living to the south of you, was Sodom with her daughters. (Ezek 16: 45-46)**

Their corpses will lie in the main street of the great city, which has the symbolic names “Sodom” and “Egypt,” where indeed their Lord was crucified. Those from every people, tribe, tongue, and nation will gaze on their corpses for three and a half days, and they will not allow their corpses to be buried. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and be glad and exchange gifts because these two prophets tormented the inhabitants of the earth. (Rev 11:8-10)

 

[losh14]

Are you familiar with the view that apostate Jerusalem was the harlot. I read about it in the book “Rapture” by David Currie.

I’ve heard that and I think there’s merit to the argument. Harlot was a commonly used metaphor (especially among the prophets) for those Jews who participated in Assyrian, Amelkite or other idolatries.

I think where it more lends itself to pre-Christian Imperial Rome is in Rev 17:1-5. The Whore is identified as sitting on many waters (having many multitudes of people within), having been visited by the kings of the earth, and being covered in auspicious wealth. While this is probably true for Jerusalem it is certainly true for Rome.

In context with Mt 23 and Ek 16, though, it would be more apt for Jerusalem.

 

[FCEGM]

I’ve heard that and I think there’s merit to the argument. Harlot was a commonly used metaphor (especially among the prophets) for those Jews who participated in Assyrian, Amelkite or other idolatries.

I think where it more lends itself to pre-Christian Imperial Rome is in Rev 17:1-5. The Whore is identified as sitting on many waters (having many multitudes of people within), having been visited by the kings of the earth, and being covered in auspicious wealth. While this is probably true for Jerusalem it is certainly true for Rome.

In context with Mt 23 and Ek 16, though, it would be more apt for Jerusalem.

The Days of Vengeance, a book by the late David Chilton, a Calvinist pastor, is recommended in Scott Hahn’s audio series on the Revelation (“The End”). Here is how Pastor Chilton addresses “sits on many waters” (all emphases in the original):

". . .sits on many waters, an image taken from Jeremiah’s description of Babylon in his famous oracle of judgment against her (Jer. 50-51). The expression many waters of Jeremiah 51:13 refers both the the Euphrates, which ran through the middle of the city, and to the canals surrounding it. Ultimately, it refers to the blessings which God has bestowed on Babylon, and which she prostituted for her own glory. Thus St. John describes the Great Harlot of his day in terms of her prototype and model. Later, in 17:15, we are informed of one aspect of the symbolic meaning of the ‘many waters,’ but for now the point is merely the identification of the Harlot with Babylon.

"At the same time, however, we must recognize that at every other point in Revelation where the expression many waters is used, it is set within a description of God’s covenantal relationship and liturgical interaction with His people. We have noted that the Voice from the Glory-Cloud sounds like many waters, and that this Voice is produced by the innumerable angels in the heavenly council (Ezek. 1:24). Similarly, in Revelation 1:15 Christ’s Voice is ‘like the sound of many waters’ (cf. Ezek. 43:2). . .The expression is thus reminiscent of both God’s gracious revelation and His people’s liturgical response of praise and obedience. Given the Biblical background and context of the phrase, it would come as no surprise to St. John’s readers that the Woman should be seen seated ‘on many waters.’ The surprise is that she is a whore. She has taken God’s good gifts and prostituted them (Ezek. 16:6-16; Rom. 2:17-24).

Chilton goes on to comment on “many waters” as appears in 17:15:

“The angel now explains the significance of the waters. . .where the Harlot sits. These are described in terms of a fourfold designation: peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues, i.e., the world. The identification of the ungoldly rebellions nations of the world with the raging sea is a familiar one in Scripture. Isaiah wrote of 'the uprorar of many peoples who roar like the rumbling of many waters, but He will rebuke them and they will flee far away, and be chased like chaff in the mountains before the wind, or like whirling dust before a gale” (Isa. 17:12-13). . . .

"Jerusalem could truly be portrayed as seated on ‘many waters’ (i.e., the nations) because of the great and pervasive influence the Jews had in al parts of the Roman Empire before the destruction of Jerusalem. Their synagogues were in every city, and the extent of their colonization can be seen in the record of the Day of Pentecost, which tells us that ‘there were Jews staying in Jerusalem, devout men, from every nation under heaven’ (Acts 2:5), The Days of Vengeance, David Chilton, pgs. 423-4 and 438-9.

 

[ryanoneil]

I’ve heard that and I think there’s merit to the argument. Harlot was a commonly used metaphor (especially among the prophets) for those Jews who participated in Assyrian, Amelkite or other idolatries.

I think where it more lends itself to pre-Christian Imperial Rome is in Rev 17:1-5. The Whore is identified as sitting on many waters (having many multitudes of people within), having been visited by the kings of the earth, and being covered in auspicious wealth. While this is probably true for Jerusalem it is certainly true for Rome.

In context with Mt 23 and Ek 16, though, it would be more apt for Jerusalem.

I suspect the original context refers to pre-70A.D. Jerusalem, and the ECF’s saw this fulfillment as a prefigurement to the fall of Rome.

The ten horns that you saw and the beast will hate the harlot; they will leave her desolate and naked; they will eat her flesh and consume her with fire. For God has put it into their minds to carry out his purpose and to make them come to an agreement to give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God are accomplished. The woman whom you saw represents the great city that has sovereignty over the kings of the earth." (Rev 17:16-18)

If there is only one “great city” in the book, the strongest evidence for Jerusalem is that it is the city where the Lord was crucified.

Their corpses will lie in the main street of the great city, which has the symbolic names “Sodom” and “Egypt,” where indeed their Lord was crucified. (Rev 11:8)

If there is only one “great city” these verses would also refer to Jerusalem (Rev 16:19; 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21)

Which relates back to the sea and the land beast. (sea is symbolic for Gentiles). The harlot/false prophet needed to ride/prop up the first beast for political and earthly survival (which was giving into and facilitating emperor worship). When the harlot defied the beast in this regard she was destroyed.

 

[knarrrj]

Hmmm I think that I got something wrong. I re-read an article that I had read on this topic and it seems that the Adventists think this particular beast is the USA, not the Catholic Church. I do know however that they do believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ and the Church is the whore of Babylon and if I’m not mistaken they get this from their interpretation of Revelation at least in part. Would anyone like to comment on this?

Thanks

See me an address.Mine is knarrrj@ori.net

 

[Gerhard2]

2 Pe 1:20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
I recomend you to read what the Catholic Encyclopedia says newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

 

[christian_777]

Pure speculation. Stick with the father’s and the teachings of the true Church. A lot of our protestant “brethren” it seems believe such lies about holy mother Church. If that is the case, then they would have to conclude that St. Peter was the first anti-Christ!!

Peter was never part of the Catholic Church.

 

[juliamajor]

Peter was never part of the Catholic Church.

Hmmm.Maybe. But I know one thing for certain he was no SDA.

 

[christian_777]

The Catholic Church been proclaiming the Good News of Jesus Christ for 2000 years. How could it be, therefore, the anti-Christ? As Jesus says (Matt 12:25) “a house divided among itself can not stand.” If the Catholic Church were the anti-Christ it would have collapsed long before now.

Matt.7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Take note note, if a man come to you with a gun you would try to excape but if he come to you with a bible what would you do? Do you think satan wants you running?
How did the church treat the christians that tried to live by the bible? Here is a hint, Foxes book of martyrs.

ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

 

[christian_777]

In replacing the Sabbath with Sunday worship, the Church is not replacing what God has ordained. Rather the Church is acknowledging what God has done for us. In the Person of Jesus, God humiliated Himself and became man for our sake, dwelt among us, and died and rose again. This is the means through which God offers salvation and eternal life to all people (not just the Jews, though God has not abandoned them cf Rom 11).

Though the NT does not speak of Sunday worship, we do see St Paul challenging the requirement of circumcision. To continue to follow the Old Covenant (including Sabbath observance) would be to ignore what God has done for us. Jesus is “the Way” (& is “Truth and Life”) and no one can come to the Father except through Him (Jn 14:6). He established the Catholic Church (& the Orthodox) and gave her authority, so to deny this or denounce her as the Beast would be to deny or denounce Christ.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.

God gave a commandment. Who have the right to usurp God?

 

[juliamajor]

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.

God gave a commandment. Who have the right to usurp God?

For the millionth time-Sunday was the Lords Day,on the sabbath the christians did not rest as the Jews did but sunday was celebrated with rejoicing -not rest.this was done in apostolic times.So if you gonna blame anyone blame the apostles.Then tell Jesus it was very rude of Him to rise on a sunday because that just doesn’t fit in with SDA agenda.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Hmmm.Maybe. But I know one thing for certain he was no SDA.

Then what church was peter part of… the protestant church!

Matt

 

[juliamajor]

Then what church was peter part of… the protestant church!
Hmmmmm.NO!
Matt

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

juliamajor:
I sure would like to know what church peter was part of if not the catholic church. It looks like christian777 can’t even come to terms on that.

Matt

 

[juliamajor]

I sure would like to know what church peter was part of if not the catholic church. It looks like christian777 can’t even come to terms on that.

Matt

C77 has a very narrow boxed in view of everything .Never mind him trying to wrap his head around anything CatholicTo him and others like him we are “the Great Satan”.So trying to get him accept even historical truths is like teaching a sheep to cha-cha-It just can’t be done.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

C77 has a very narrow boxed in view of everything .Never mind him trying to wrap his head around anything CatholicTo him and others like him we are “the Great Satan”.So trying to get him accept even historical truths is like teaching a sheep to cha-cha-It just can’t be done.

I have a very close friend who is also very narrow minded. Trying to convince her of anything has been like trying to raise the titanic with tweezers.

Matt

 

[christian_777]

For the millionth time-Sunday was the Lords Day,on the sabbath the christians did not rest as the Jews did but sunday was celebrated with rejoicing -not rest.this was done in apostolic times.So if you gonna blame anyone blame the apostles.Then tell Jesus it was very rude of Him to rise on a sunday because that just doesn’t fit in with SDA agenda.

It should be clear that the Lord’s Day is not Sunday. The lord’s Day is Sabbath, Mat. 12:8For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.
It should also be noted that Act 20:7 does not support Sunday worship either.
Acts20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Please note that the Jewish day started at evening, so that the first day started around 6 pm, so for us that would be Saturday night at 12: that they are taking about. It would also indicate that they were there for Sabbath worship and continued pass sunset into the first day of the week because Paul was leaving the next day.